"These Burning Stars" Discuss Everything *Spoilers*

[SFFBC, Ancillary Mod]

This book is hot, and not just because of the title! Come share your thoughts!

A few questions to get us started:

1. What did you think of the world?
2. What did you think of the characters?
3. What worked or didn't for you?
4. Overall thoughts?

Non-spoiler thread here: First impressions

[David]

I read this back in November, but...


1. What did you think of the world?
I thought the world was fascinating, the religious connection with each of the colonies was super interesting and I found the author's portrayal of the Jeveni's diaspora culture very interesting. As well as the various houses and systems and the droplets of lore about the history of the Kindom and its purpose, I want to know more about the history of the Treble systems, why did they go there in the first place? Were they religious fanatics who left? A minority that fled? This world left me wanting more, I genuinely cannot wait to find out.

2. What did you think of the characters?
I LOVED the characters, Esek was so evil but I genuinely could not get enough of her POV, the enigma that is Six and their presence throughout the plot, Esek and Chono's complicated friendship was compelling, I related to Chono a lot in regards to the way she couldn't help but be loyal to Esek and the Kindom(Religious Trauma WOOP WOOP). And then there are my favorite Space Sapphics of last year, Jun and Liis! Something about them just makes me happy, Liis and Jun's mutual protectiveness of one another was heartwarming and I could just go on and on about how these characters make me feel, they all felt very fleshed out and I commend the author for that.

3. What worked or didn't for you?
The plot twist with Six being Esek in the present timeline worked wonders for me, the super subtle hints, and the seeming disconnect between past and present Esek as well. The worldbuilding was really interesting to me as I stated in the first question. I also was a huge fan of the "gender marking" system, the fact that there are common ones and even culture-specific ones!? It was great and it felt like a nice addition to expanding the worldbuilding What "didn't work" for me, was the ending, it was not a bad ending but the whole thing about being around this new planet just felt like one long info dump, I understand that the second book will likely fix any issues I had but I wish there was just a little bit more of the characters exploring that fact or maybe some more hints as to where it was heading. It still makes sense but it left me wondering.

4. Overall thoughts?
This novel is one of the most underrated works of scifi in the last year. Bethany Jacobs struck gold for me. I was incredibly invested from start to finish and I will preach the good news of this book forever, I hope more people read it and I hope it gets one of the Hugo Nominations this year. Please let me know if you agree/disagree with my thoughts and why, and I'm very open to expanding on my specific thoughts if anyone wants me to :D

[Ryan, Your favourite moderators favourite moderator]

Thanks for sharing, David!

Has anyone else read this yet? If so, how did you get on with it?

[Cheryl L]

Ryan wrote: "Thanks for sharing, David!

Has anyone else read this yet? If so, how did you get on with it?"

I have a few other books in front of this so I'll probably start it mid or late month. Have you started it? Already read it?

[Ryan, Your favourite moderators favourite moderator]

Cheryl L wrote: "Have you started it? Already read it?"

I have read it... twice! I disliked it the first time, but decided to give it another chance after seeing others enjoy it thoroughly.

[Sarah, The Unsettled]

What didn’t you like about it Ryan? (I take it the second experience wasn’t any better?)

It definitely has some questionable quirks for me but I am enjoying it for the most part.

[Trude]

These Burning Stars
By Bethany Jacobs

I enjoyed this book a great deal and would recommend it to anyone not afraid to read about psychopaths and narcissists, mass murder and ruthless politicking.

The characters are good, even the Nightfoots can be understood and believed. The ruthlessness oozes out from Alisiana and Esek, and we are inevitably feeling mafia vibes all over. With a matriarch as head of the family maybe we should call it a mama-fia?

Chono is kind of a flying monkey for Esek much of the time, but her motives for following along on all the murky and shitty stuff is belevable as well. She is truly conflicted in her dealings with the ruthless mentor, but probably has been gaslighted and manipulated to a point where she has so many blindspots regarding Esek it’s a wonder she doesn’t use a white cane.

The worldbuilding is good and partly believable too. Perhaps a little shallow when it comes to the power dynamics and the Kindom, but understandably it is put aside for the plot.

There is a weakness in the plot revealed about half way, when it is clearly stated (twice I think) that the whole of Lucos Alanye’s family was exiled. This can’t be true, as we meet a family member at nothing less than a kinschool training to possibly be a Hand of the Kindom in the very first chapter. This contradiction ought to have been better explained.

Otherwise the narrative is splendid. Well written, composed to grip the reader and drag her along after her nose, the world building is fascinating and woven into the story masterfully. The relationship between Chono and Esek is riveting and you constantly want to learn more both about their progress as Sherlock and Dr. Watson hunting for the coin in present time, and their history together - and who is Six? Where and as who is it hiding, and is it out to ruin Esek Nightfoot, or is this its way to try and join her? The last option should be hard to believe after so many years. The contrast between Esek and Chono is also well portrayed and captivating.

The two twists at the end, first revealing who Six has become, and then presenting Six with a difficult choice, are both great reveals, for my part it was not something I had anticipated.

I thoroughly enjoyed this book, the plot, the writing, the world building and the characters.

A recommended read!

[WTEK]

First off, I absolutely loved this book. The cyberpunk mixed in with heavy religious vibes and sword wielding was like a mash up of Star Wars and Neuromancer, but way less white male focused lol. I too was surprised I would like it so much since I knew nothing about it going in. Based on the description, I thought it would be mostly told through Jun's eyes, but still enjoyed Chono and Esek's POVs.

1. What did you think of the world?
I felt like the world was well thought out. It could have been crazy complicated, but we were given just enough info to flesh it out without overwhelming us. As I said above, I liked the mash up of science and traditional type culture. I would love to learn more about the many gods and different world cultures. I'm so glad it's going to be a trilogy.

2. What did you think of the characters?
Like David said, Esek was horrible, but in that delightfully off-balance villain way that works in fiction (but not rl lol). Jun was probably my favorite, but I would love to learn more about Liis. Chono was a close second for me. Her faith and conflict with her actions was well portrayed. I would also like a little more info on Illius (?) and what went on with those two. I also agree with Trude about how Chono was basically traumatized by her savior, Esek, and that affected the way she was drawn to her.

3. What worked or didn't for you?
I also agree that the ending was a little explainy, but it was ok since I needed a little explanation at that point. It did wrap up pretty quickly once we got there. I did like the way that Six had to figure out what to do with what they built. Their confusion was an interesting idea for a jumping off point for the next novel.

4. Overall thoughts? The good mix of characters, the interesting world, and the ultimate revenge story made this a great read! I'm glad it was this month's read, otherwise I might not of know to pick it up.

[ra2710fa]

Trude wrote: "These Burning Stars
By Bethany Jacobs

There is a weakness in the plot revealed about half way, when it is clearly stated (twice I think) that the whole of Lucos Alanye’s family was exiled. This can’t be true, as we meet a family member at nothing less than a kinschool training to possibly be a Hand of the Kindom in the very first chapter. "
It was explained! On chapter 27
“Your great-great-grandmother was Drae sen Briit, Alanye’s lover. She managed to get off of Jeve in the first hours of the bombings, but succumbed to her injuries later. Her children had been safe on Kator for several months, and one of their descendants, your father, settled on Teros. When we first searched for you, we learned that he had died, and that a secretary took you for a ward.”

[Sarah, The Unsettled]

Overall I liked this. I thought the world building was good. It felt “new” (or maybe a better word is different?) which I really liked. I have questions about some of it. I did think it felt a little superficial in places as Trude noted. It was not too info dumpy and it clocked in at less than 450 pages which is impressive.

I also liked the characters. Esek and Six were probably my favorites. I also loved Jun and Liis’s relationship. (Although, I did find it a little unbelievable that Liis didn’t die. I don’t love books where every character is the best of the best of the best at what they do, it feels unbelievable. So Liis surrounded by however many and living to not just fight another day but get back on the train was an odd choice.)

I think what didn’t work for me, is when I had been following this story and there were so many horrible people littered throughout the book and we get to the end and everyone in the room, except for maybe Six, is just so good and (wholesome?). I found myself asking- where are the Jeveni who are out for revenge (where are the Six’s of the group?)? How is it possible they have always had a government/body of people that are so pure any individual one of them would die for the cause? I found that aspect extremely unbelievable especially since a revenge faction would make so much sense in this context. I wanted more shades of gray in this regard.

I loved the twist and did not see it coming until the moment it was being revealed. There is a small part of me hoping Esek lives- because she’s a great villain, and the cat and mouse game was one of my favorite aspects.

I do not think I love the direction book two hinted it was going in? Chono and Six returning to the Kindom to ensure smooth handoff of the Sevite trade… just doesn’t sound interesting to me at all. Hopefully I’m wrong.

I agree with others in the first impression thread I thought the dual timeline was messy and bogged down the narrative in places, and I did find myself flipping back and forth to anchor myself.

So not a perfect book for me, but I enjoyed it overall.

[Kaia]

Sarah wrote: "I think what didn’t work for me, is when I had been following this story and there were so many horrible people littered throughout the book and we get to the end and everyone in the room, except for maybe Six, is just so good and (wholesome?). "

Sarah, I agree with you on this aspect of the ending. I was trying to figure out what it was about the ending that didn't sit well with me, and I think it is this.

Honestly, I have very mixed feelings about this book overall. I enjoyed the middle more than the beginning or the end. The switches in time and perspective at the beginning were hard for me to follow and required a lot of looking back and forth. I also figured out the twist ahead of time, which made the reveal not as much fun.

The world itself was very interesting, and while I found parts exciting and the characters mostly well-developed, I never really cared very deeply about them. I don't know if it was due to the multiple perspectives, or the fact that there was so much brutality that I expected everyone to have something bad happen to them (and thus didn't want to emotionally invest). I've read other books with ethically-challenged characters and multiple perspectives (like (view spoiler)[Ninefox Gambit (hide spoiler)]), though, that I felt very strongly about the characters and had a great desire for them to not die during the book. I'm having a hard time figuring out why that wasn't the case with this book, which I feel like I should have enjoyed more than I did based on my past reading.

I liked it enough that I'm not sorry to have read it, but I don't plan to continue on with the series.

Edited to add spoiler tags around the other book I referenced.

[Laurie]

I really wish you didn’t reveal that a character did not die. I have not read this yet.

[Sarah, The Unsettled]

Laurie wrote: "I really wish you didn’t reveal that a character did not die. I have not read this yet."

Hi Laurie, sorry to spoil things for you. Every book of the month has two threads, first impressions where you will not run into spoilers, and the full spoiler thread which is here.

If you’d like to take a look at the first impressions thread that’s here: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

[Kaia]

Laurie wrote: "I really wish you didn’t reveal that a character did not die. I have not read this yet."

In case you are referring to the other book that I referenced in my post, Laurie (not These Burning Stars) - I only meant that I had a strong wish for the characters to survive while I was reading - this was not necessarily the actual outcome for them. I'll go back and put the title in spoiler tags to be on the safe side.

[David]

The Blurb for the sequel was revealed, as well as the title. On Vicious Worlds

"The Jeveni have finally found freedom on the distant planet Capamame, delivered from Kindom oppression through their alliance with stoic Cleric Chono, intrepid caster Jun Ironway, and Six, the wildly unpredictable manipulator who has outwitted the Nightfoot family.

But when Six and Chono return to the Treble star systems, the dream of freedom meets a dangerous test. The Secretaries of the Kindom are intent on reclaiming power in the Treble, as well as control over the Jeveni. Meanwhile, Jun Ironway and Jeveni collector Masar Hawks struggle to protect Capamame from a population brimming with resentment, not to mention a faceless saboteur spreading mayhem and murder.

As the two groups struggle to outwit their enemies, divergent battles wend toward a climatic reunion that will spark a revolution. But over it all hangs the cruel legacy of Esek Nightfoot, whose rippling effects may prove impossible to survive. "

I think the way the story is headed will deal with some of the issues I've seen in this thread. the role of the Secretaries will be expanded and their odd absence in the story will be explained. I'm really excited for the release sometime in October!

[John]

Laurie wrote: "I really wish you didn’t reveal that a character did not die. I have not read this yet."

That is one of the reasons for which I don't read comments or reviews on a lot of books because some people tend to overn share what happens in the book and it can be frustrating. Of cours in this case there was the Caveats of "Discuss Everything? "*Spoilers*" which should've warned you.

[Graeme]

I enjoyed this book, particularly the setting. I liked the fact that it was an interstellar society, but only across a few worlds.
I wasn't so blown away by the characters. As Sarah alluded to, all of the characters are too good at what they do. We have the best caster, blade, ex blade, pirate, and ...whatever Six is. Even Chono is the most beloved cleric, whose reported death sparked weeks of mourning. However I did enjoy the Chono-Esek relationship.
The ending was too neat for me. Liis and Masar should be dead. And all the exposition was too much - something that was neatly avoided for most of the book.
I spent most of the book hating Esek, hoping that Six would properly finish her at the end, but expecting her to cheat death; so I really enjoyed the twist, which I didn't see it coming at all. For me it redeemed all of the Esek-hating chapters. I'd probably enjoy a second reading more, knowing her fate is sealed.

[J.W.]

To me the greatest strength of this book is the world. It's a truly fascinating world that is both well thought out and developed in a way that feels genuine rather than info dumpy.

[Ryan, Your favourite moderators favourite moderator]

I was working on a comprehensive list of my issues with this book but figured I'll just dump what I have for now and try to articulate the rest later.

When I originally read this story I went to the modshack and wailed at my co-mods. I hated These Burning Stars and declared that I would never put it on a poll. Only for the membership to decide otherwise. :/

I felt so aggrieved after finishing These Burning Stars and reading a spiel that claimed the story to be a space opera. Admittedly I was far from pleased with the story anyway, but that really riled me.

"A dangerous cat-and-mouse quest for revenge. An empire that spans star systems, built on the bones of a genocide. A carefully hidden secret that could collapse worlds, hunted by three women with secrets of their own. All collide in this twisty, explosive space opera debut, perfect for readers of Arkady Martine and Kameron Hurley."

For a space opera, this story was distinctly lacking in space travel and dealing with (what i can only imagine are) the unique factors that come into play when traveling across a galaxy. Space is wholly irrelevant to this story. They could have set the whole thing on an island. Locations didn't differ. Not the gravity, not the behaviours needed to survive. The most drearily beige universe imaginable. I'm baffled by claims that the world building was great.
_____

The story felt to me like a fantasy novel where someone haphazardly used the 'find and replace' function to drop in sci-fi buzz words.
_____
The idea that this highly oppressive regime could entrust anyone with a generation ship was mystifying, but thankfully it wasn't something I had to dwell on as the story quickly moved on to more fantastical elements with sprinklings of sci-fi jargon.

_______
Listening to the audiobook it seemed as though a head was meeting a laser or sword every 10 minutes. Such a death toll was a great way to make me not care about the life of anyone in the story.

[a.g.e. montagner]

Thanks, Ryan, for making me feel less guilty about not joining this Book of the Month!

[Eric]

The book is dense and complex
Well written, but too violent for my taste
I’m halfway through and it does get easier to navigate as we go forward
Certainly unique

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Like others, I found the characters super interesting. They were all, in their own ways, monsters, and it was fascinating to see their different motivations, codes and methods.

One of the things I really enjoyed was how futile their efforts ended up being. I could see that being a let down, but I kind of loved that Six didn't get to be a big damn hero. They'd thrown their life's work towards something that didn't need them. That's a part of revolution stories that we don't get to see a lot, so I was glad that we had a world big enough to contain the horrors of the kindom and also the redemption of the Jeveni. I'll be interested to see where that goes.

[Bonnie]

Ryan wrote: "I was working on a comprehensive list of my issues with this book but figured I'll just dump what I have for now and try to articulate the rest later...

...it seemed as though a head was meeting a laser or sword every 10 minutes"
Snark: Oh, did they have lasers in this world? With so many guns and swords I didn't notice

Like Ryan, I had a number of problems with this book. While reading it went from a 4 to a 3 to a 2... point five, OK 3... The more I thought about it the less I liked it, but can be hard to articulate why.

At first glance it seemed like the author had put a lot of effort into creating the world of The Treble: three star systems and multiple planets & moons; governments and history; religions and gods; time system with Year of the Crux, Year of the Ingot.... But not much of it was actually used in the story. After looking at the maps and saving them to Photos app for reference... the maps weren't even really necessary. "Today I came from the water world" and "They were protesting at the jump gate stations" was most of it. While I was reading the book I would think of Arrakis (Dune) and the planet of Realm of the Elderings (Assassin's Apprentice)... those worlds felt much larger.

Another thing not really used in the story: we kept hearing Esek was very very evil and malicious, and that Chono was very very good, loved by the people, holy. But to me they didn't always feel that way, even though I was told it.

[Victor]

I have some mixed feelings about this. I enjoyed a lot of the setting and the worldbuilding, which gave me Dune vibes while still feeling quite fresh.

The book felt kind of long to me, and it may have just been the author's style in it. I am also aware that this is their first novel so I will probably check out the sequel to see if it improves.

The twist regarding Six was cool at the end, and I really enjoyed the action throughout, though I wish more backstory was given regarding the world in itself.

[CJ]

Hear me out!

The ending seems to be for a novel that wasn't what the rest of the novel leading up to it was about. The ending focused on the Jeveni genocide and survivors coming to terms with that and seeking healing and a new future as a community. But the bulk of the novel really treated the genocide as a subplot, which drove me nuts while reading this because I would have been really interested in reading a SF novel that explored the ramification of genocide and how survivors come to terms with that experience and seek healing. But I just do not feel the ending matches the rest of the novel. It is as if Jacobs wrote that ending first (maybe it started as a short story--definitely has that feel), then went back and wrote the rest of the novel, but got a bit off course and started focusing on other aspects of the story.

Like Ryan, I was disappointed that this is supposedly a space opera but has relatively little space stuff going on. When it does come up, it feels either intrusive or like an afterthought just wedged in, like the author went, "Oh yeah, this is set in space, I better remind the reader of that!"

Another thing that irked me was how there were elements that I felt were interesting but has the novel progressed, it was as if Jacobs was trying to turn them up to 11, like she was trying to out-politic Martine, out-sex Yoon Ha Lee, out-gender Le Guin, etc. It just seems like, at least at the time she was writing this, that Jacobs hadn't really develops a strong authorial voice of her own and was drawing too much inspiration from the works of other SFF writers and not from her own ideas.

Overall I felt this had a lot of potential but that as a debut novel, it could have used another year or so of gestation and maybe some pretty savage editing to make it more cohesive and consistent. Most of the problems I have with it I feel stem from that. I picked up the second book on sale and am interested in reading it down the line to see if the series improves.