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Yellowface
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February Informal Buddy Read - Yellowface by R.F. Kuang
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This is one I found interesting:“Sensitivity readers are readers who provide cultural consulting and critiques on manuscripts for a fee. Say, for example, a white author writes a book that involves a Black character. The publisher might then hire a Black sensitivity reader to check whether the textual representations are consciously, or unconsciously, racist. They’ve gotten more and more popular in the past few years, as more and more white authors have been criticized for employing racist tropes and stereotypes. It’s a nice way to avoid getting dragged on Twitter, though sometimes it backfires—I’ve heard horror stories of at least two writers who were forced to withdraw their books from publication because of a single subjective opinion.”
Have you ever heard of sensitivity readers? I haven’t, but it makes sense. Do you think these are used regularly in the industry? Would you hire one for a book you wrote about a different culture? Do you think things may have gone a little differently for June if she would have agreed to the sensitivity reader? Would it possibly have changed Candace’s view of June and the project?
I told y’all I highlighted a bunch of stuff! 🤪“I’ve chosen to rebrand myself as Juniper Song”
“I never pretended to be Chinese, or made up life experiences that I didn’t have. It’s not fraud, what we’re doing. We’re just suggesting the right credentials, so that readers take me and my story seriously, so that nobody refuses to pick up my work because of some outdated preconceptions about who can write what. ”
How did you feel about June re-branding herself and her name? Was this deceiving for the reader? Would something like that change your view of reading a book in real life? Did you think it was fraud what June was doing?
This one made me laugh…..🤭 “My book even gets chosen for a national book club run by a pretty white Republican woman who is mostly famous for being the daughter of a prominent Republican politician, and this gives me some moral discomfort, but then I figure that if the book club reader base is largely Republican white women, then wouldn’t it be good for a novel to broaden their worldviews?”
Hmmm….. could she be talking about the Read With Jenna Bookclub by Jenna Bush?? Do you read or not read certain celebrities book club picks because of their personal political views? Now, what if you are an author and your book gets picked by one you don’t personally agree with politically, would you turn down the opportunity or go with it for the sales?
Oh Lindsey, I'll try some answers, you are definitely hitting a lot of important points.Sensitivity readers - I did not know they existed, but it makes sense. They have focus groups for politicians, why not sensitivity readers for books?
I don't think a certain race or ethnicity should have a monopoly on writing books about that race or ethnicity. Anyone can write with knowledge, understanding and empathy. If writing only about things/events you were personally impacted/affected, there would be no historical fiction anymore (set in medieval France, ancient China, WW2, etc.)
"Read with Jenna" bookclub....hmm, I haven't thought about it, but maybe. I do not read any celebrity book club picks, regardless of their political views. But if I was an author, I'd probably think that any exposure is good exposure. I would not agree with the book club's host political views, but if there were more people to read (and buy!!) my book, that would be great. In the end, authors need to eat too, and being successful means not just fame, but income too.
Lindsey wrote: "Ok, here is one of my questions - her editor and publisher tells June not to read reviews. But she sticks on goodreads and social media like hot glue. Do you think it's wise for authors to read reviews? If you published a book, would you want to read the reviews or stay away from them?"Lindsey, you have so many good questions. I'm going to try and tackle some of them over time.
I'm trying to remember who first said that it is dangerous to start believing your own press, but I believe it. Both the good press and the bad press.
I think I'd have to have a general idea of what is being said about me, but it would become too personal to read specific reviews or articles about the work.
It is very hard to resist, but I don't think it is healthy to fixate on what strangers are saying about you and your work. Art is subjective and there's always somebody who will not understand what you put out there.
And I always wonder, if what is written appeases the greatest number of people and generates the least amount of criticism, does it follow that would be the best work? I think sometimes good writing should stimulate us, provoke us, pull us out of our complacency, and challenge us. I don't feel that type of writing is ever universally well received, at least initially.
Lindsey wrote: "I wonder how often this scenario really happens in real life of one author stealing another's book/story/idea?"I bet it happens quite a bit, sometimes with malice aforethought, but maybe sometimes unintentionally. For example, my husband frequently needs to warm up to an idea. I used to get so offended when he would say "NO" right away to my vacation ideas. Now, I think it is funny when he says "no" to something and then later on, comes up with the exact same idea. I can always tell him, "that's such a great idea; I wish I'd thought of that myself" and then he knows that I did come up with the idea first and he forgot about it in his conscious while his subconscious was still working. Something like that is funny and cute.
It's not funny or cute when instead of trying to build consensus for a trip, somebody steals your story and gets paid for it. Your imaginative idea is your livelihood and it isn't OK. But, lets say we both go to a museum together and both get inspired by the same thing and then do our own research, is that really stealing a story? Who had the idea first? I think that's why we have so many derivative concepts in art. How often do we get a new movie script? And even this book reminded people of other similar books that we are reading later.
And after reading this book, I also realized why so many sequels are written. Coming up with a new imaginative concept that hasn't already been used is a lot of work. Much safer and easier to pitch a sequel.
This brings up an interesting point - “Meanwhile, everyone’s talking about The Last Front like they know it’s going to be a hit. And I wonder if that’s the final, obscure part of how publishing works: if the books that become big do so because at some point everyone decided, for no good reason at all, that this would be the title of the moment.”
I wonder how often this happens…. I’m thinking of a book I read years ago that wasn’t a huge book but it was an amazing book to me. There wasn’t the marketing, publicity and ads around it like there are for a new Kristen Hannah book. How often do the publishers simply decide which books are going to be the next big hits?
I think established authors get a lot more publicity than new ones. I can't imagine how hard it must be to have a debut novel, and the work it might take to promote it. Do you need money? Do you need to know somebody? You just need to be lucky and get on Oprah's list? >> And I wonder if that’s the final, obscure part of how publishing works: if the books that become big do so because at some point everyone decided, for no good reason at all, that this would be the title of the moment.
I think it happens a lot. All the super hyped books that everyone seems to want to read at some point...the hype must start somewhere. After that, it snowballs on its own, but who decides which book to hype in the first place? I don't think they all start the "race" from the same position.
Lindsey wrote: "Do y'all think Athena’s mother knew the real truth?"Yes, I think she knew that her daughter used the stories of people close to her to inspire her writing. Why? Because she had no interest in reading the contents of her daughter's notebooks. Most would want to read what their family member wrote, unless they were afraid to see the inspiration behind the writing, or that they might not be favorably represented. I do think there was more to the rift between Athena and her mom, but I think she also knew that there would be some aspects of Athena where she might want to have plausible deniability. :-)
Lindsey wrote: "This is something Athena said:“I sometimes wonder how my work would be received if I pretended to be a man, or a white woman. The text could be exactly the same, but one might be a critical bomb and the other a resounding success. Why is that?”
Do you agree with her sentiment? Do you think she was a legitimate author worthy of the praise and accolades she received?"
This is such a good question. I don't know the answer to it. I haven't read her work, so I can't have an opinion on her legitimacy. However, I do know that certain people at my work do not need to justify their decisions as often or in as much detail as others do, I suppose it follows that some authors may be inherently respected whereas other authors may receive a more critical reception, based upon the criteria of the person reading the work.
Lindsey wrote: "So, what are your thoughts on this? There are tons of books out there where the author will speak some in another language. Do you feel the author should put a translation in, or is it normally pretty obvious what they saying in the context of the paragraph? I love to read Indian authors and a lot of times they will speak in one of the languages from India at times, I can understand what they are saying even if there isn’t a translation. But it got me thinking…. As a reader, I don’t want to have to go to google to understand what the author is saying."So far, this hasn't been a problem in the books I've read, but I find if something is too much work to read, I stop having fun with the book and get a bit grumpy. On the other hand, there are certain phrases that just don't translate into certain languages and we lose a little bit unless we can read the original text. I guess I don't want to work that hard for something that should be entertaining me though.
Lea wrote: "But, lets say we both go to a museum together and both get inspired by the same thing and then do our own research, is that really stealing a story? Who had the idea first? I think that's why we have so many derivative concepts in art. How often do we get a new movie script? And even this book reminded people of other similar books that we are reading later.And after reading this book, I also realized why so many sequels are written. Coming up with a new imaginative concept that hasn't already been used is a lot of work. Much safer and easier to pitch a sequel."
I do think this book shows how difficult it is to come up with new and original content for a book. I totally agree about the sequels, it does seem like that is easier than coming up with a whole new concept. Especially if the original book was popular. You know what it makes me think of - music. So many rock songs can be traced back to some riff from a Led Zeppelin song. It always amazes me when i hear a new song that i really like. It would be hard for me to write a song and not have pre-existing lyrics in my head. I imagine the same is true with authors. I mean, think about the police detective thriller/mystery genre - how many different twists can they continue writing?
I do follow several celebrity book clubs - Reese's, Jenna, GMA and Oprah's. I don't read all of their picks, but I'm interested to see what they pick. The main reason why is each of them have gotten me to read a book I wouldn't normally pick up on my own and have ended up loving. I don't look at the politics, i just look at the book pick and figure out if i want to try it or not. As a reader, i like discovering new autbors, new genres and books I probably wouldn't have even glanced at in a bookstore. I love being pleasantly surprised by books.
Lindsey wrote: "How did you feel about June re-branding herself and her name? Was this deceiving for the reader? Would something like that change your view of reading a book in real life? Did you think it was fraud what June was doing?"I honestly don't know how i feel about this.... on one end, i understand from a marketing perspective in today's environment why they would want to re-position her. First, her debut novel was a huge flop, so it would be harder to sell her follow up novel. But i see where thry would want to have her appear more "asian" to try and give more credibility to the novel. I was trying to think if i was in the author's shoes.... soy last name is Gandhi. Mahatma is a relative of my husband's family. Say i wrote a book about him or even a story about the remote village my father-in-law grew up in. It makes more sense for my author name to be my married name and not my maiden name.
In the case of Juniper Song, i felt it was deceptive because (view spoiler)
Lindsey wrote: "Lindsey wrote: "How did you feel about June re-branding herself and her name? Was this deceiving for the reader? Would something like that change your view of reading a book in real life? Did you t..."I don't know...it feels like cheating. Personally, I don't think I care about the author's ancestry when deciding to read a book or not, it's the subject/story that needs to be interesting.
In your example, I think a note at the beginning of the book explaining the relationship with your father in law, the fascination with the history of the place and/or his personality, etc. would be enough to explain the inspiration and reasons behind writing the book. No need to rebrand yourself, writing is a form of art. It does not belong to a certain group.
This is something June said:“For the first time since I submitted the manuscript, I feel a deep wash of shame. This isn’t my history, my heritage. This isn’t my community. I am an outsider, basking in their love under false pretenses. ”
Do you think she ever truly felt shame or guilt about the book, what she did, her actions or how she handled the whole situation? Or was her drive for being better than Athena, being a world famous author more important to her?
This is June’s thoughts on why The Last Frontier was “awards bait”:“Look, we care about what is going on in the world, and since literature is a necessary reflection of our lived reality, this story is what we’ve chosen to elevate.”
When it comes to book awards, how much do your think this sentiment drives which books are nominated for awards, versus going on a books popularity and sales?
Lindsey wrote: "Do you think she ever truly felt shame or guilt about the book, what she did, her actions or how she handled the whole situation?"I don't think so. There are so many paragraphs in this book when June is justifying her action, the reason she earned the good reviews and fame, the reasons she deserves them, I lost count. A short moment when she feels remorse (and does nothing to set the story straight) does not matter.
If one is willing to plan and do something that deep inside they know is wrong, for fame or money, do we believe they are ashamed?
This is June thinking through rebuttals on some of the criticisms of her book:“Similarly, I included depictions of racism in the text not because I agree with them, but because I wanted to remain faithful to the historical record.”
This got me thinking about a lot of books on the banned lists. Many are banned because there are racists texts, but sometimes it’s in there to remain true to historical time periods and history. How do you feel about this? Should authors today include this if they are writing about a historical event or should they not? Is there a middle ground where the author can remain true to history without offending anyone today? What are your thoughts on banned books?
I told y’all I highlighted a boatload of stuff. 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣“Reputations in publishing are built and destroyed, constantly, online.”
How true do you think this is In today’s society and publishing world? How do you feel about cancel culture? Have you ever stopped reading an author because of something online or something they did /said?
Lindsey wrote: "Many are banned because there are racists texts, but sometimes it’s in there to remain true to historical time periods and history. How do you feel about this? Should authors today include this if they are writing about a historical event or should they not? Is there a middle ground where the author can remain true to history without offending anyone today? What are your thoughts on banned books?"I'll try to be brief, and these are only my personal opinions: you cannot make everyone happy all the time. History happened, it was like that, and if you get offended by things that happened in the past, don't read the book. Some people don't read books with animal cruelty, some books with violence, we all have our likes and dislikes, our triggers and limits.
Authors should feel free to write anything they want, however they want without auto-censoring themselves or other censoring them. Let the readers decide.
No books should be banned. I am talking about literary books, not pamphlets that might incite to violence, promote racism, etc. Those fall into a different category.
This is June talking about her next book:“And once you’re writing for the market, it doesn’t matter what stories are burning inside you. It matters what audiences want to see, and no one cares about the inner musings of a plain, straight white girl from Philly. They want the new and exotic, the diverse, and if I want to stay afloat, that’s what I have to give them.”
How much do you think of this is true? Let’s take race out of the question, do you think authors feel the pressure to write stories more around what’s currently going on in the world versus stories they may have burning inside them?
Lindsey wrote: "do you think authors feel the pressure to write stories more around what’s currently going on in the world versus stories they may have burning inside them?"Yes, that's how we ended up with tons of WW2 HF books, all similar, no new ideas. Readable but boring and forgettable.
Which of June’s actions did you find most irredeemable?
Who do you think the villians are in this story?
Ioana wrote: "Lindsey wrote: "do you think authors feel the pressure to write stories more around what’s currently going on in the world versus stories they may have burning inside them?"Yes, that's how we end..."
My face-to-face book club has sfopped selecting WW2 fot aqhile now because there were sooooo many. It felt like sme story just a different cover on the book.
June feels betrayed by Athena for writing a story about a traumatic experience she suffered during college. Do you think what Athena did was wrong? Robert Kolker’s 2021 piece “Who is the Bad Art Friend?” also raised questions about whether it is ethical to publish fiction drawn explicitly from someone else’s life. What obligations, if any, do authors have towards living subjects who inspire their stories?
What happens next for June? Will she ever stop her manic obsession with literary success?
What do you think was the goal of the author with writing Yellowface?
Ugh so sorry work has been INSANE (we've literally been down at least 1 person, sometimes 2 since the beginning of january)I just finished it today and I have NO idea how I'm going to rate it. It was SO weird lol and I hated June so much and thought she was #1 a terrible person but #2 so overdramatic when she was "caught" the several times. And that ending.. guh .. what the what lol
I will say though, as I myself am currently writing a first draft of a mystery novel it was fascinating to me to see the publishing world and how it operates
I lot of the backlash June received reminded me of the backlash of the white woman who wrote American Dirt. This book would be a fascinating book club read, that's for sure!
Alissa wrote: "I lot of the backlash June received reminded me of the backlash of the white woman who wrote American Dirt. This book would be a fascinating book club read, that's for sure!"We have American Dirt on our list of books, so we definitely will buddy read that sometime and I hope others will join us!
All I know is that you and I are currently reading Daughter of Moloka'i which is written by Alan Brennert, a person who presents as a white male. Yet the main character in the book is a half Japanese, half Hawaiian female.
Lots of different authors tell stories that aren't from their own ancestry. I'd hate to limit an author's creativity and freedom to only allow them to tell stories from their own ancestry.
But, I also think readers get to decide what they want to read. Unfortunately, our choices are limited by what the publishing houses print, so I'm not sure what we read is a true reflection of what we would read if we ourselves were the decision makers on what books come to print.
It's very interesting for sure.
Alissa wrote: "Ugh so sorry work has been INSANE (we've literally been down at least 1 person, sometimes 2 since the beginning of january)I just finished it today and I have NO idea how I'm going to rate it. It..."
I was thinking about American Dirt too when I read this!!!
I think authors should write anything they feel like writing. Personal experience is nice to have, but it's not a monopoly. With research, talent and understanding of human nature and human relationships, anyone can attempt any topic.Our choices are limited not only by what what gets printed, but also by what gets promoted, by the book recommendations we get from various sources that might have their own agenda, etc. I'm sure there are tons of great books that either don't get translated or are not big budget affairs and only get printed in a small number, or are debut novels with not a lot of publicity, and we never get to read them.
Alissa, good luck!!
This discussion is so interesting to read. I also thought of American Dirt reading this. Yet, that author had previously published a couple of books that she was paid very little for. She did not know this book was going to have the major publishing houses bidding on it. Most authors struggle to get their work published at all. Certainly, I could imagine a publishing house to try to make the person sound “more authentic “. Is that going too far, in Yellowface I think yes. Yet, writing is an imaginative process. You are making up characters. Much research also may have gone into the people, culture, area, and time frame being written about. I think a problem is excellent writers who are BIPOC are often skipped over. Their work should be considered and many have authentic experiences having lived in these places. Race or heritage certainly has an impact as one would probably understand it better, but publishing houses have to make that change. I don’t think we should start excluding authors because of their background. The work needs to stand on it’s own. If the author has not written the book well, it will fall pretty flat.
So including more types of people and taking an interest in their stories I really like. I also like ones where the author is not and relies on writing skill and often speaking with many people about what is being published.
Yellowface I think was supposed to be a farce, and I don’t think we were supposed to love Juniper. It was an exaggeration and asking how far the industry and an individual author would go to be a famous author.
Kristine wrote: "Yellowface I think was supposed to be a farce, and I don’t think we were supposed to love Juniper. It was an exaggeration and asking how far the industry and an individual author would go to be a famous author"Kristine, you hit the nail on the head here! 👏
Oh my! So much chatter regarding this book. I’ve been on the fence with reading this book, I did skim a few comments at the beginning, definitely trying not to spoil myself in case I get FOMO. I, definitely intrigued by this author, my thoughts were that this book is a fantasy book, I’m not really a fantasy girlie, so I was trying not to look, if you know what I mean, but the comments on this buddy read!!!!! 🤦🏾♀️😂
Linda wrote: "Oh my! So much chatter regarding this book. I’ve been on the fence with reading this book, I did skim a few comments at the beginning, definitely trying not to spoil myself in case I get FOMO. I, definitely intrigued by this author, my thoughts were that this book is a fantasy book, I’m not really a fantasy girlie, so I was trying not to look, if you know what I mean, but the comments on this buddy read!!!!! 🤦🏾♀️😂"
Linda, I don't know if this helps you or not...but this particular book by Kuang is not fantasy. Her other books are, but this is so different from the other book that I read by her (Babel), that it doesn't even seem like it was written by the same author. :-) :-) This is contemporary fiction for sure. Good luck with your decision!
Linda wrote: "Oh my! So much chatter regarding this book. I’ve been on the fence with reading this book, I did skim a few comments at the beginning, definitely trying not to spoil myself in case I get FOMO. I, d..."Linda~Normally Kuang writes fantasy, which usually is not my thing. As Lea commented, this book is not fantasy at all. It’s fiction that is definitely in the present time.
I review some books on NetGalley, so the book made me laugh and cringe sometimes, as I read all the blurbs about the upcoming book and the objective clearly is to create early buzz to get people talking and buying a particular book. The publishing house really does decide how much it wants to promote a book. So, it’s a bit of a farce, this writer is willing to comprise her integrity in many ways and it’s a slippery slope onward. So, I do think this is occurring, but not at the level the book suggests and I don’t think it is supposed to have you loving Juniper (formerly June), but maybe understand how much she wants to get published and make it big.
It’s a timely issue and topic. I found that fascinating. It was a fast paced read. I found many parts funny. I think the author did a good job with this book. It could have just been preachy and boring and it’s not.
Hope that makes your decision a little easier.
Thank you ladies for your input, it definitely helps with my thoughts on wanting to pick this book up or not. I think I’m moving towards wanting to. 🙂
I finished this last night and ended up liking it more than I thought I would. I did like the ending which probably made it a 4 star for me rather than 3. Though this is about publishing and all the angst that entails, I believe it is more about what someone would do for success and how guilt can eat you up. Made me think of Crime and Punishment in that sense. I think we really see June/Juniper and how she thinks when she is struggling with coming up with another book. She doesn't miss writing as much as she misses being the center of attention. As a side note, I've been watching The Other Black Girl on Hulu (based on The Other Black Girl & would get them a bit confused in my head at times. The story lines are nothing alike--but publishing world plus diversity are the main themes, so interesting comparisons were made in my head. (Probably nowhere else.)
So there was some talk about doing a buddy read on The Plot. I know we want to be careful of not adding too many buddy reads in one month. Here is the schedule i hsve for ones I'm involved in. I know many of you are doing others. This may help us figure out a month that works for everyone interested.March-
1. Weyward with Lea & Ioana, denise
2. Part of Your World with Alissa
April -
1. The Hunting Wives with Alissa
2. Bright Young Women - Alissa, Lea, Ioana, denise (late April, early May)
May -
1. Love, Theoretically with Lea
2. The Comeback with Alissa
June -
1. Check & Mate with Lea & Aissa
July/Aug -
1. The Happy Place with Lea
Aug -
1. Holly with Lea & Ioana
Let me know what you guys are thinking with The Plot....
Are we still doing Parable of the Sower in March? Lea? I have started listening to The Plot but willing to discuss whenever.
Here are the buddy reads that I'm involved with:March -
Parable of the Sower
The Wager: A Tale of Shipwreck, Mutiny and Murder
Weyward
April -
No Easy Day: The Firsthand Account of the Mission That Killed Osama Bin Laden
Bright Young Women
May -
Love, Theoretically
The Break-Up Book Club
June -
Check & Mate
Stepsister
July -
In the Lives of Puppets
Book with Alissa TBD
August -
Happy Place - I see that Lindsey has this July/August, either works for me...
Holly
Book with Alissa TBD
If I missed anything, please let me know. My spreadsheet is not infallible. :-)
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Books mentioned in this topic
Bright Young Women (other topics)Holly (other topics)
Parable of the Sower (other topics)
The Wager: A Tale of Shipwreck, Mutiny and Murder (other topics)
No Easy Day: The Firsthand Account of the Mission That Killed Osama Bin Laden (other topics)
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“So then the other thing we wanted to ask you is, uh, positioning.”
I realize I’m supposed to answer. “Right—sorry, what do you mean?”
She and Jessica exchange a glance.
“Well, the thing is, this novel is set in large part in China,” says Jessica. “And given the recent conversations about, you know—”
“Cultural authenticity,” Emily jumps in. “I don’t know if you follow some of the conversations online. Book bloggers and book Twitter accounts can be pretty . . . picky about things these days . . .”
“We just want to get ahead of any potential blowups,” says Jessica. “Or pile-ons, as it were.”
“I did hours and hours of research,” I say. “It’s not like I, you know, wrote from stereotypes; this isn’t that kind of book—”
“Of course,” Emily says smoothly. “But you’re . . . that is, you are not . . .”
I see what she’s getting at. “I am not Chinese,” I say curtly. “If that’s what you’re asking. It’s not ‘own voices,’ or whatever you want to call it. Is that a problem?”
“No, no, not at all, we’re just covering our bases. And you’re not . . . anything else?” Emily winces the moment those words leave her mouth, like she knows she shouldn’t have said that.
“I am white,” I clarify. “Are you saying we’ll get in trouble because I wrote this story and I’m white?”
So first let me say I love how the author just jumped right on the elephant in the room and ran like a bull in a china shop with it. This is a big controversial issue in the publishing industry. What are your thoughts on authors writing stories outside either their ethnicity, race or even events they have no personal connections to? Now let’s talk about the passage above - what did you think about the marketing team wanting to re-position June to appear more ethnic for the story?