Reading the 20th Century discussion
Archive
>
Welcome to The Midnight Bell (a virtual pub and general discussion thread) (2024)
Mod
Seems to me the result was determined months ago, once Boris Johnson and Liz Truss had done their worst.... Partygate and the mini-Budget their definining..."
You'd think, but we shouldn't underestimate tribal politics and people for whom voting Tory is muscle memory. Also, as I would viscerally never vote Tory, I understand people who feel the same way about Labour. Nothing's in the bag yet ...
Great tweet from Labour Party with a mock up of the Beeb announcing a Tory win with Sunak celebrating, with a tagline of go out and vote to ensure this doesn't happen. The horror, the horror! (just to keep this vaguely literary) 😉
Mod
I think Brown was a great chancellor but not a good choice as PM.
What I find very telling is all the fantastic work Gordon Brown has done quietly since leaving office especially on food banks and poverty.
Just as I'm impressed with the work Starmer has done since his 20s in terms of international human rights.
What people choose to do when they're not under scrutiny and in/running for office is significant, I'd say.
Replying to Alwynne from the other thread. Starmer’s legal work is his legal work. Some smarts and a good philosophical foundation/ ethics is encouraging. But his behaviour/ statements over sex/ women’s rights is unacceptable. This issue has really slammed on the brakes and given me serious doubts about him. This is a really serious issue and that he can flip flop on something so important reflects v poorly. I know in election campaigns it’s routine to do lots of spinning whatever they say toward whatever they think will get them votes. I feel like promising to avoid raising taxes with loads of promises of what they’ll do is a standard one and to be expected. But the sex thing with all the massive implications it entails is something there should be a firm position on. This is women’s rights at stake. Also the welfare of vulnerable children (I am reading Time to Think and it makes the NASA botch look small in comparison). At least Rishi’s govt were straightforward on this and even acted, in the face of great pressure against them, to do the right thing - I’m thinking of dealing with the gender self ID thing in Scotland sensibly. Meanwhile over this incredibly important issue, Starmer was just trying to say whatever he thought the crowd would go for. Compare his treatment of Rosie Duffield to Kemi Badenoch’s treatment! And now he’s somehow changed his stance in the last few days. Unconvincing. And again, unacceptable on something like this. It makes me question whether he is primarily ethical or pragmatic.
Changing the current govt is a given for prob most and philosophically I’m progressive so I should thank Bojo et all for cratering them. But like I said it’s been uninspiring and a different election for me.
Roman Clodia wrote: "Alwynne wrote: "I've no doubt that Brown is a rather passionate individual, prone to irascibility under pressure or when frustrated - then again so am I. Doesn't make his politics any less sound."..."
I really felt for Gordon Brown, was is 2009?? The savaging by the media - seemingly all of them - was crazy! It's not really much use if no one takes another perspective. Didn't seem fair on him.
Roman Clodia wrote: "Alwynne wrote: "I've no doubt that Brown is a rather passionate individual, prone to irascibility under pressure or when frustrated - then again so am I. Doesn't make his politics any less sound."..."
Absolutely R. C.
Kit wrote: "Replying to Alwynne from the other thread. Starmer’s legal work is his legal work. Some smarts and a good philosophical foundation/ ethics is encouraging. But his behaviour/ statements over sex/ w..."
Not sure there's much substance to the Tories paying lip service to the needs of women and children when women and children have suffered massively under their successive governments from increasing child poverty to underfunded schools and health services to cuts in disability benefits to lack of support for single parents (predominantly women)...As for the rights issues I think this is something on which we will have to agree to disagree, I don't personally have a problem with sharing spaces with transwomen. I've done so many times, spent a lot of time in trans clubs etc well before it was fashionable. I agree there needs to be sensible discussion over how this sharing of spaces might work. But the Tories don't, as far as I can see, give a toss about women and children's rights, they just saw an opportunity to exploit issues around the trans community as a way of appealing to certain voter groups:
Child poverty:
https://www.bigissue.com/news/social-...
Disability:
https://www.thecanary.co/opinion/2024...
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/...
https://www.bigissue.com/news/social-...
But I'm not a single issue voter, am I totally happy for example with Labour's track record on the environment? No I'm not, the latest Greenpeace report shows the Greens - inevitably - and the Lib Dems environmental policies are far superior. But there's no such thing as perfection in any government, and Labour are far ahead in terms of a variety of other pressing issues. The Tories on the other hand are a bunch of entitled, self-serving grifters, who show every sign of moving even further to the right, plunging more and more people into poverty, and eroding public services to the point of no return.
Mod
I'm not sure I'd even necessarily know if someone was a transwoman so not something I have a problem with either.
I did see an admittedly tongue-in-cheek comment that many more women have been knowingly harassed and abused by Tory MPs than by transwomen!
The latter appears to be more a theoretical fear than an actual thing, I think - which could, surely, be addressed so that everyone is comfortable and no-one is victimised. We need to have a proper grown-up conversation about this.
Mod
Yes, I think we have to be pragmatic about voting rather than idealistic - government of a country is hard and complex and always a provisional juggling act.
Mod
... I just love seeing people I loathe defeated in real time, schadenfreude of the most satisfying nature."
Yes, it's a shame that so many have already stood down, cheating us of Portillo Moments for the likes of Michael Gove.
You've inspired me so I've got in veggie gyoza, edamame pods and cherries. Also fancy smoked almonds :))
Mod
On that dispiriting disappointment that so many feel about this election, here's a good piece by Hugh Muir: www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/art...
Alwynne wrote: "Kit wrote: "Replying to Alwynne from the other thread. Starmer’s legal work is his legal work. Some smarts and a good philosophical foundation/ ethics is encouraging. But his behaviour/ statements..."
- on poverty, agree, it’s negative
- On women, I’ve no doubt they’ve tried to capitalise where they spy poss votes. But I do think there is some substance to their stance even if it’s coming from a traditionalist place. Compared to Labour on it they’ve done better. I do note that Maria Miller in the Tories held some enquiry that opened the lid to all this in the UK back in the 20teens. I think there was a wave of it coming throughout all the Western world though. It is only relatively recently (in the mainstream) when more people became aware of the implications of it all that things were examined more closely. I tolerantly went along w the sex is a spectrum thing etc etc way back when it was a theory in the academic ghetto of women’s ahem gender studies, just accepting this was progress. It was when I saw some alarming things that I did a deeper dive going back to Butler and checking out her critics.
When you say you don’t have a prob sharing spaces with trans identified people do you mean the loo? Even without any physical assault, a person raised/ socialised amongst one sex (this is linked to patterns of physical assault too) raises privacy issues when they go in to the other sexes loos. This is small stuff in the scheme of things. I suspect you are middle class/privileged enough to not have to deal with being in prison, in a rape crisis centre, having to be bathed as an invalid by someone who could be a transwoman (I’m assuming you’re female). Some people need sports scholarships just to be able to go to university and are getting placed out so can’t. This is just the tip of the iceberg. Consistency is needed, women’s rights, rights for all women is needed.
When you break down the sex classes, making it just one undistinguished class that all must get through in in this male designed according to male metrics and interests world, women lose out. Women’s rights, fought for so hard in an attempt at equity in this patriarchy, are lost. All it takes is a gender self ID policy where people can just declare they’re the opposite sex. (Checkout how that’s going eg in Canada, USA, Spain - men do it just to get cheaper car insurance, do rapes, get maternity pay and on and on..)
It goes back to the sex is a spectrum, the gender thing. I’ve tried to make it work from every permutation reading on it and doesn’t add up on paper. And when attempts to reify this theory are made, as has been the case, it fails, mayhem.
This is a big issue, not a trivial question of language or a case of reactionary conservatives against progress (though there may be some of them too). In fact if you look at the pattern of the effect of this trans situation, it’s women that are bearing the fallout. Men not so much. See a pattern here? Unfettered patriarchy means women lose out and in this next “progress” that is what is happening again. If you want to point at transwomen being a sign of women’s empowerment, just look at how they are sweeping women’s top spots in prizes from sports to the arts, top business roles, even the head of an endometriosis organisation, while women lose more and more ground. Does it make you question anything? Do you see a through line here? If you want to check the canary in the coalmine on women’s rights, check the group, having removed itself from dealing with men more than others, are on the sharp end of misogynistic men’s assault, the lesbian community. It is way past a canary or two, this is a group under siege. I consider this to be a sexist and a homophobic movement.
I’ve checked in to Labour’s policies on this and they are inconsistent and shaky on it and with Starmer at the helm, based on his recent performance on this, my confidence is low. And I'm not pulling for the Tories. It just felt like there was no where to go.
Women’s rights have to be safeguarded. Everybody's have to be. Everyone has to be cared for as best as possible. That includes people who identify as trans too. People who identify as trans are a group that need a lot of help. The current situation and poss gender self ID does not serve them. And things have become a lot harder for them as well as women with everything being stirred up as it has been.
Mod
Roman Clodia wrote: "Alwynne wrote: "As for the rights issues I think this is something on which we will have to agree to disagree, I don't personally have a problem with sharing spaces with transwomen. I've done so ma..."No if they pass you wouldn’t know.
I don’t really care about looks. Some women get mistaken as men. But I don’t mind them. Is it all about looks? ie fitting in to the traditional stereotyped idea of what a woman or man looks like? Ie as long as everyone looks like either a stereotyped woman or man it’s ok?
I think gripping to these rigid ideas of what a woman and a man look like are a big part of the problem. If this gender conformity could be relaxed I think a lot of the problem would go away. A woman varying from the straightjacket of what is considered femininity would be ok, they would still be a woman and wouldn’t be steered to think they aren’t a woman/ are actually a man/ should change sex. Same for men who don’t hew to a stereotyped male look. I think men wearing dresses and makeup would be fine, it doesn’t make them not men/ women. …This is a point at which this spectrum theory, go beyond the binary etc seems to contradict itself when people espousing it attempt to bring it in to being. As I said above - it looks like a reactionary conservative movement.
On an even more serious health note, doing away with the massive importance of looks would do away with the medical treatment of children which is all in the aid of looking like the opposite sex by treating them before puberty hits or as soon as possible around then. This causes enormous health problems, only some of which we have an inkling about.
Re the joke about Tory MPS harassing more than transwomen. Haha to the joke. This and your comment about not sure if you’d know if someone was a trans woman show that you’ve been removed from having been affected by this yet. I’m not holding people to looks as the important thing, but I’m going to say you most certainly know the far majority of the time when it’s a transwoman. As for the Tory MPs harassing women. I just googled how many there were in the past govt and no, I believe way women have been harassed by people identifying themselves as transwomen. If you are removed from contact with some of these people identifying as transwomen you wouldn’t experience it, hear about it or even these days know about it from the news. Only if you look closely would some reports give you pause. The use of people’s nominated pronouns independent of their sex has resulted in news like Woman rapes woman, Woman arrested on pedophilia. This isn’t rare or me being sensationalist. It has gotten to the stage where crime is recorded according to nominated pronouns with no distinguishing even between women and transwomen and this this means you wouldn’t know if someone identifying as a transwoman was the perpetrator, unless in some situations where you can read between the lines ie it is a crime no woman would do and you bother to do so. (Spotting the amount of people identifying as transwomen committing crime is not a goal in itself, I’m just responding to your joke. But also it does mess up crime statistics which does have serious implications for handling crime.)
What is the latter you are referring to?
“everyone is comfortable and no-one is victimised. We need to have a proper grown-up conversation about this.” Totally 100% agree!
Kit wrote: "Alwynne wrote: "Kit wrote: "Replying to Alwynne from the other thread. Starmer’s legal work is his legal work. Some smarts and a good philosophical foundation/ ethics is encouraging. But his behav..."
Finally, I politely 'agreed to disagree' you however responded with comments that included a thinly-veiled, ad hominem attack. Presumably intended to undermine my right to have a different perspective than yours. I could have called you a 'terf' or some other offensive term but had the decency not to do so. Perhaps you could accord me the same courtesy. If not, then please refrain from engaging with me in future, otherwise my response will be couched in a register that will be very recognisably working-class, and not the polite, doff-your-cap kind.
The exit poll is looking very promising, Blair's original majority was 179 and this looks as if Starmer's could be close or even surpass it.
Mod
Kit, I wasn't intending to make a joke that offended anyone.
This is clearly an emotive issue but I think we need to move on now.
And could everyone please be mindful of not making personal attacks here. We all have the right to our own opinions but please respect others and offer them the same rights.
Thank you.
Roman Clodia wrote: "Alwynne, I'm very sorry to hear about your distressing experiences. Kit, I wasn't intending to make a joke that offended anyone.
This is clearly an emotive issue but I think we need to move on ..."
Thanks R. C.
Mod
Fingers crossed! But Reform projected to get 13 seats is scary.
I'd forgotten how enthusiastic Jeremy Vine is!
Roman Clodia wrote: "Alwynne wrote: "The exit poll is looking very promising, Blair's original majority was 179 and this looks as if Starmer's could be close or even surpass it."Fingers crossed! But Reform projected ..."
I agree coming out of nothing, it's extremely disturbing.
Alwynne wrote: "Kit wrote: "Alwynne wrote: "Kit wrote: "Replying to Alwynne from the other thread. Starmer’s legal work is his legal work. Some smarts and a good philosophical foundation/ ethics is encouraging. B..."
I assumed you were middle class/ privileged enough - based on your views that you have no problem sharing space with people identifying as trans women. I assumed you were only thinking of toilets. I think sharing a cell with a person trans identifying as a woman would give the average woman pause (there are a big number of them in for sex crimes, only recently identified themselves as trans in prison after the crime, are v v likely to be stronger than you and have been socialised as males(more likely to be more physically aggressive. V v few people trans identified as women to date have been raised female socialised))
I think the answer to what defines a transwoman, as well as transperson, transman needs to be pinned down to get to meaningfully talk about this…..
Anyway the fact that you haven’t been to prison would make you what I wrote, privileged enough.
I do not think “working-class people are automatically inarticulate, prime victims and/or incapable of adopting a variety of registers in terms of how they express themselves in different contexts.” Nothing about that. Don’t put that on me. As I wrote above, that you hadn’t thought of eg the prison situation I put down to it not occurring to you/ thinking it was a rare thing etc. It’s a pretty big deal when you look at the actual details and how it’s played out in practice so far.
I think anyone can have an opinion on anything. They should base it on the facts/ information. If it’s someone speaking outside their own experience/ position it would prevent them from knowing the feeling of being there themselves, but anyone should be allowed to work their way through facts and logic.
I’m really sorry you’ve experienced that stuff and can just say, big respect for getting through it 🙏
The possible gains in Scotland by Labour fascinating though, if true. A few years ago Scottish Labour was practically wiped off the map.
Kit wrote: "Alwynne wrote: "Kit wrote: "Alwynne wrote: "Kit wrote: "Replying to Alwynne from the other thread. Starmer’s legal work is his legal work. Some smarts and a good philosophical foundation/ ethics i..."
I refer you back to R. C.'s comments in her 'moderator' role, we need to move on now - it's possible you missed her remarks?
Mod
I second RC's remarks. I have to believe Reform's projected winning 13 seats is an overstatement. I suspect the Exit polls are less accurate in predicting seat totals in today's kind of fractured politics than they were when 2 parties dominated.
Enjoying seeing a chastened Rees-Mogg, although imagine he'll pop back up again like the proverbial bad penny.
Ben wrote: "I second RC's remarks. I have to believe Reform's projected winning 13 seats is an overstatement. I suspect the Exit polls are less accurate in predicting seat totals in today's kind of fractured..."
I hope your suspicions are correct Ben, but the number of votes they received in Sunderland South are worryingly high. But they could be a flash in the pan, UKIP looked as if it might surge ahead politically at one point but then fell apart.
But maybe Sunderland South means I'm wrong!
If an American may be allowed an observation.It has been fascinating to observe the so many posters who have been able to say their say absent so much of the left/right ugliness that has made so many of my countrymen an embarrassment.
I admit to having myown difficulties in this respect -when attempting to frame my responces to my political others. Left right polarization may just be that much more a matter of hard lines in a country with effectively two parties, but ...
bottom line.
My respect to the many posters over the course of the elections in and across Merry Old.
Would that there be some intent to learn from you and seek to see more of your like on this side of the pond.
Ben wrote: "Ha ha! Snap!"I did see a lot of chatter online about voting for Reform as a type of protest vote, rather than serious support. Obviously how accurate that is can't be verified until the basis of their support's dissected and analysed at a later stage.
The combined Reform/Tory share worries me. The analysis over the next few days showing where Reform voters previously voted will tell us a lot, as will the geographic distribution of that vote.
Mod
Love Jeremy V's hexagons!
Alwynne wrote: "Kit wrote: "Alwynne wrote: "Kit wrote: "Alwynne wrote: "Kit wrote: "Replying to Alwynne from the other thread. Starmer’s legal work is his legal work. Some smarts and a good philosophical foundati..."
yes I did
Mod
Roman Clodia wrote: "Alwynne, I'm very sorry to hear about your distressing experiences. Kit, I wasn't intending to make a joke that offended anyone.
This is clearly an emotive issue but I think we need to move on ..."
Cheers RC. No personal insults, agree.
Roman Clodia wrote: "The Guardian is projecting a Reform win from Labour in Barnsley North, one of those vile racists supposedly dropped by Reform."That's dispiriting. Crossing my fingers they're wrong. But see they're predicting more Green seats which I'd like to see, if only so that they can form a decent pressure group in government.
But also enjoying the Labour predictions, last election I really thought that certain parts of the country could only be regained if we brought in proportional representation. Also Reform very much a one-man band, which may lead to its downfall sooner rather than later. Can't believe people are voting for a party that wants to bring back the death penalty and replace the NHS with an insurance-based system.Edit: I mean I can believe it just would prefer not to...
Also love that Rees-Mogg thinks core voters were ignored, ironic since he's also admitted that the ID system was meant to exclude younger voters but actually lost his party a number of their older voters instead!
Mod
Peter Mandelson is right, I think, that Reform voters don't always seem to be aware of their manifesto esp. on the NHS.
Love how Labour commentators, Sadiq Khan, Wes Streeting, are so much more articulate and authentic than the others.
Loved the speeches from Heidi Alexander and Robert Buckland at the Swindon South count. Mutual respect.
Stephen wrote: "Loved the speeches from Heidi Alexander and Robert Buckland at the Swindon South count. Mutual respect."Agree Stephen was nice to see how gracious they were towards each other.
Roman Clodia wrote: "Really hoping to see Rees-Mogg lose his seat, along with Mordaunt.Peter Mandelson is right, I think, that Reform voters don't always seem to be aware of their manifesto esp. on the NHS.
Love ho..."
I'm looking forward to that too, think they should mount him lying stretched out on a bench and slowly roll him off. Terrible, terrible man.
And yes reassuring that Mandelson also thought that the swing to Reform was a protest vote rather than an expression of core beliefs. And Sadiq Khan is someone I very much support too.
Be interesting too to see if there's a regional aspect to the Reform swings. Was relieved to see they were third in Swindon South, as a friend just texted me to say, turns out there are worst things than Tories!
Roman Clodia wrote: "Really hoping to see Rees-Mogg lose his seat, along with Mordaunt.Peter Mandelson is right, I think, that Reform voters don't always seem to be aware of their manifesto esp. on the NHS.
Love ho..."
Like to see Priti Patel go too, think she's still the MP in Witham?
Mod
Roman Clodia wrote: "Guardian saying Jeremy Corbyn could just snatch a narrow win - not surprising, I think."I really hope he keeps his seat. He always had massive support in his area.
Mod
It is for us but I suppose technically it means that a fair proportion of voters won't be fully represented.
Reading the 20th Century
Books mentioned in this topic
Middlemarch (other topics)The Sea, the Sea (other topics)
Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy (other topics)
My Name Is Red (other topics)
The Accursed (other topics)
More...
Authors mentioned in this topic
Toni Morrison (other topics)Henry James (other topics)
Dorothy M. Richardson (other topics)
Warsan Shire (other topics)
Virginia Woolf (other topics)
More...
I don’t feel inspired by anyone either. More than that I feel like there is no option to go to. Being just to poor/ struggling people, women’s rights, avoiding racism, the environment are all really important to me and every party seems like its has a fails on at least one of these. In a big way.
Re disengagement - agree, but I see it as a purposeful disengagement amongst I’ve checked in with. Not an apathetic one. Maybe a bewildered one and just not knowing what to do too.
The vibe for this election feels a little different to past ones for me. It's always choose the best of what there is. But I feel like in the past people had someone they wanted to vote for. This time it's like - who is there, they all have big ❌ . It's just end the Tories. But who to go to?