Reading the 20th Century discussion
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Welcome to The Midnight Bell (a virtual pub and general discussion thread) (2024)
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Oh, that's such a disturbing video. I think her tears after the event were more revealing than she was prepared to admit. I was also worried about the interview with the only OnlyFans performer who expressed her concern about events becoming more extreme - as we see with the 1000 men challenge at the end. It's a bit like games/apps which are designed to hook players in and get them addicted while also separating them/us from reality.
I think I feel sorry for Lily who may be making vast amounts of money but who seems so vulnerable. Her lack of self-awareness in terms of personal safety is shocking. I would compare her with Charlotte Shane in Prostitute Laundry who seems so much more thoughtful about what she was doing and why, and also recognized her limits and what she had to do to protect herself.
I worry that Lily thinks she's in control and making her own decisions yet her tears told a different story. I don't know how OnlyFans works but who else is making money from her 'business'? There's something insidious about how she's hooked into a system that will demand more and more extreme moves from her otherwise her subscribers will go elsewhere. Also, those men! The guy who paid £800 for five minutes of sex with her - sheesh!
Roman Clodia wrote: "Alwynne wrote: "I think of myself as sex positive in general but I'm really struggling to work out what I think about Phillips"Oh, that's such a disturbing video. I think her tears after the even..."
Definitely, totally agree with all your points. I don't want to infantilise her or dismiss her right to autonomy but I was really shaken by her apparent lack of self-preservatory instincts. Obviously documentaries frame and construct as much as they reflect but the ending, and the small changes in her expressions in earlier sections, suggest an ambivalence that she feels unable/unwilling to confront.
It seemed terrible that she has nine people on her team yet nobody who seems on her side. And that nobody thought through the threats posed by her numerous clients from potential stalking onwards. It was very telling that many of the men ignored her boundaries, ejaculating into her eyes for example, yet nobody had considered that many men get off on refusing to honour women's limits.
As you noted, the pressure to push things to extremes to gain and retain audiences must be immense, and the proposal for February is truly terrifying. I can't imagine the toll it might take on her body and on her state of mind, and the potential for being actively harmed increases dramatically with that many clients.
But it did make me think about the online sex work industry, my impression was that Phillips's is set up like a business, so she pays taxes etc Yet there are no real safeguarding guidelines etc to regulate what she does, no requirement for medical staff to be available etc
And yep the men were truly awful, no sense of Phillips as a person, no interest in her sexual pleasure, and so casual about the whole thing, had a pie, fucked Lily, might go to the V&A after!
Also, probably a bit weird of me, but the framing of Phillips in the doc and elsewhere made me think about framing in general. The state of the bedroom made me think of Tracy Emin's work and the whole project reminded me of Ono and Abramovic's performance art, Arbus having sex with her subjects etc It really drove home the point about context/presentation and reception/reactions.
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Yes! I noted that too and thought it was a pointed bit of editing. There was that moment when Lily admitted she was part of the problem as she is deliberately allowing, even encouraging, men to objectify her - but then she shied away from that again. I thought the video captured so many of those moments of evasion.
Showing my age here but I worry about this aspect of 'feminism' - it's one thing empowering women to make their own decisions but that process is complicated by the pressures of capitalism, social media, and issues around to what extent women genuinely own their own sexuality. Are ideas of women's 'sexual freedom' still, in some cases, being constructed to benefit men? Her repetitions about this being her fantasy too troubled me - we all know there's a big gap between fantasy and reality.
But the creepiest moment had to be when her father's friends contacted her, or her father told her his friends had watched her online. I was straight back in Lolita.
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I worry too, obviously sex positivity is founded on assumptions about women being in control and not being shamed or ashamed of their sexual impulses both of which are obviously desirable. But I didn't feel that Phillips was in control in any real sense, similarly when I lived in an area where there were a number of street-based sex workers impossible to ignore the fact that these were mostly very, very young women, shivering in their micro minis through rain and even snow, and the very opposite of empowered. The issue about fantasy I find difficult, I agree fantasy and reality are not the same thing. But have friends who like to indulge in kink of various kinds and I've been to specialist clubs with a couple of them. Many of the acts I've witnessed in clubs might be considered extreme/verging on self-harm but these environments are very carefully policed, and people on that scene are - on the whole - extremely well-informed about boundaries etc I also had friends at uni who did sex work to support their studies, although mostly gay men, but they worked via agencies so clients were vetted, there were guidelines etc Even so they had a few scary encounters, boundary-pushing clients.
So, I recognise the possibility that Phillips's fantasies may extend to experiences I'd personally avoid, and that for some people there's an overlap between sexual pleasure/pain that may seem alien/incomprehensible to others - particularly the risk averse like me! But I think your point about what's essentially commodification is a crucial one. Phillips isn't playing out her fantasies purely for her own pleasure, she's a performer who's attempting to appeal to increasingly jaded audiences. So there's a pressure to continually up the stakes. Nor is she performing in a safe or well-regulated space in which her safety/health are a central concern, and her clients are vetted in any strict sense. Nor is she part of a community within which physical/mental/sexual boundaries are understood and policed. All of which make her, and others like her, exceptionally vulnerable. And that makes me deeply uncomfortable. But obviously this aspect of sex work isn't going to go away, if anything it's going to increase, so all I can think is how do we limit the potential damage?
But I was also suspicious of Phillips's claim to be indulging her fantasy, it felt too much like pandering to her audience, men who obviously want to have their fantasies endorsed, and be able to impose those on women without having those fantasies challenged. Phillips caters to that by allowing these men to assume that women actively want to be treated as the equivalent of a sex robot - which she also mentioned but then backed away from.
I wasn't aware of this . (Nor the OF or Corn thing) until today ....It's not palatable on so many levels : male producer , good looking female performer claiming agency but seeking validation big time ....ho hum .
Basically making a product for a male audience without support or safeguards and able to do this as she knows men will be queuing up ....Ho hum again .
None of the men identified . Ho hum ...
A team of " support " offering about the same as your average pimp .
And this in a week by when we have witnessed the outcome of what seems like the end game of malr power play , secrecy and fetishism played out in the French courts..... Ho hum Ho hum .
This is , whatever she claims , not consent , not agency . It's damaging on a personal level for her as she is clearly a people pleaser and the whole thing is built on the lie that women have agency in the entertainment/ pornography industry where that has hardly ever been true. Those one hundred men need to give their heads a good long shake . Trouble is there's another thousand queuing up ....
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www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2024...
Roman Clodia wrote: "A little light relief, here's the Guardian 2024 book quiz - a bit disappointed I only got 17 correct! www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2024......"
Not as frustrating as the Penguin one, I got marked down for saying Daisy Buchanan was Gatsby's obsession, the correct answer was Daisy!
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Is anyone else running into a lot of 2024 books that are not in the GR system? It's very frustrating, because the reason I joined GR was to track which books I read, and one cannot keep that list up to date if the titles are not there.I miss the days when we as readers could add the missing titles and editions ourselves.
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I'm a librarian so can add books, or at least I could the last time I checked. There's a whole group for librarians here where, I expect, you could post missing titles
I have no idea how you go about becoming a librarian now, but expect there's a straightforward process
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I love my book journal, especially for keeping track of new books I want to read, and reading lists - lots of plans, never fulfilled!
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Part of the problem is that books added by Amazon bots often have incorrect information (e.g. author names the wrong way round, ISBN where the title should be). Searching by ISBN usually finds these.
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I just perused it and it gets a lot of traffic....
https://www.goodreads.com/group/show/...
Roman Clodia wrote: "A little light relief, here's the Guardian 2024 book quiz - a bit disappointed I only got 17 correct! www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2024......"
17 is quite impressive on those questions. My score was in single figures.
Yes, my own experience with the librarians is that rarely does anyone respond. I am most frustrated about a poetry chapbook that's stunningly brilliant but has no entry at all in GR, even though the author's previous chapbook is here. I'd love to be able to review it,
Several of you mentioned that you keep a book journal. I used to, but never found a satisfactory way of using it. Would any of you who keep one be wiling to say how you use it, and how you organize it?
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I often vaguely remember a book I want to read again, so trawling through book journals or my reading challenge on Goodreads can help me track things down.
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Share the info here and I'll do it
If not today then on 27 Dec
Just a link to the publishers website, or Amazon, or Waterstones or whatever - just need the basic info (pages, ISBN etc) and an illustration of the cover
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I will but currently stuck into prosecco and chocs while cooking dinner so after the holidays very happy to share!
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Thank you Susan. It's Latkes and candles for us tonightAnd in the immortal words of Tiny Tim, "God bless us, every one."
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Looking forward to lots more great books and good company in 2025!
Ben wrote: "Thank you Susan. It's Latkes and candles for us tonightAnd in the immortal words of Tiny Tim, "God bless us, every one.""
I'll probably have potato latkes at some point but really because they're so delicious with veggie sausages. Do you have potato ones Ben or one of the other varieties? I was one of those teens who was always being fed by friends' mums and one of them used to make them from scratch but put in things like grated courgette and other veg, they were memorable. I'm having posh vegan pie and mash with a friend, which I'm really looking forward to.
Happy holidays to everyone too, and thanks for being such wonderful reading (and other) companions throughout the year! Looking forward to more of the same in 2025.
Nigeyb wrote: "G wrote: "Yes, my own experience with the librarians is that rarely does anyone respond. I am most frustrated about a poetry chapbook that's stunningly brilliant but has no entry at all in GR, even..."Be careful which sources you use, booksellers are not allowed except for Amazon and its subsidiaries (thankfully that includes AbeBooks), a copy in your possession is also a valid source.
Alwynne wrote: "Do you have potato ones Ben or one of the other varieties? ..."I make mine with potatoes. No particular variety. Roughly grated with egg, onion, a bit of salt and a bit of pepper and baking powder, squeezing out as much of the liquid as I can, and then formed into patties and fried in oil, which is essential for the holiday, even though not the healthiest option. But once a year won't kill me. The latkes are a bit loose but delicious.
Ben wrote: "Alwynne wrote: "Do you have potato ones Ben or one of the other varieties? ..."I make mine with potatoes. No particular variety. Roughly grated with egg, onion, a bit of salt and a bit of pepper ..."
Impressed you make them from scratch, I tend to get buy them frozen, possibly a shocking admission? Sound scrumptious.
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I'm contemplating a few but haven't decided yet which ones I'm going to inscribe in my reading journal as my 'official' book resolutions:
1. To be a completist with my favourite authors and read their books I haven't yet got to: Virginia Woolf, Elena Ferrante, Henry James, Toni Morrison.
2. To finally read Pilgrimage by Dorothy M. Richardson all the way through without giving up after the first volume.
3. To read more contemporary poetry from people like Malika Booker, Warsan Shire.
4. To have more balance in my reading with more commercial crime and generally fun stuff for storytelling pleasure.
Anyone else?
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Finally got back to your question, G: I don't have rules with my book journal but I use it to help me reflect a little bit more self-consciously on my reading and what I'd like to read.
I keep lists, often on separate pages with thematic headings. For example, I'm interested at the moment in ideas of 'madness' and how it's represented in literature so I've got a list that I add to and from which I can cross out books.
When I decide on my NY Resolutions I'll add them there as a reminder and focus.
If I'm reading a hard copy book, I usually have a post-it stuck on the front where I jot down thoughts as I'm reading, mainly for my review, but when reading on Kindle at home, those go in my journal.
I also add in authors I'd like to read. Books I want to buy are stored on my phone notes.
What I don't do is write reviews in my journal, that's done on here.
Worth adding that I buy a lovely journal that is a pleasure to write in and keep a nice pen and pastel highlighters with it.
I don't know if that helps or gives you some ideas that would work for you?
I have intentions, rather than plans for reading in 2025.1. Virago Modern Classics are my catnip. I have done 23 in 23 and 24 in 24, so it will be 25 in 25. I expect to accomplish this.
2. I have three authors I would like to finish reading - Elizabeth Taylor Penelope Fitzgerald, and Rebecca West (fiction).
3. Proust - I have the first volume, we'll see how it goes.
4. I buy a lot of my books secondhand, and enjoy rummaging through old books. Aim for 25 is to be more mindful of what I buy and less scattergun.
Not for 25, but I have fancied reading Pilgrimage so maybe I should start picking up the volumes as and when I see them.
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I've picked up a few of the Virago volumes but noticed there's now Delphi Complete Works of Dorothy Richardson which has all thirteen together with other material for Kindle.
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I am looking forward to reading books by these people in 2025...
Elena Ferrante, Jonathan Franzen, Kate Summerscale, and possibly revisiting James Ellroy
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Also to read more non-fiction, as they have been some of my favourite books this year, and to try to increase my personal reads generally.
Sonia, Buying used books is my treat and is the only way I can acquire the vintage books and deceased author’s work. It isn’t awful that I save money if I have patience when shopping used.
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Susan, when I used to work near Charing Cross Road I loved the second hand bookshops. Sadly, there are less bookshops now, but still some special ones, especially my personal favourite, Henry Pordes books.
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I think you'll like it a lot.
This is an excellent time of the year for second-hand book hunting as people put in unread Christmas presents!
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Female/male authors: 103/44
UK/US/International authors: 56/26/54
I think my male authors was higher than usual this year because of PG Wodehouse and Patrick Hamilton, both of whom were top reads for me.
I'm pleased to see my international authors is up, something I wanted to rebalance but - as usual - it more or less happened by itself just in terms of what I fancied reading.
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98 male authors
65 female authors
UK: 138
US: 14
International: 11
I'm actually surprised I read 14 books by American authors!
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The 2 female authors are British and Irish
The 4 male authors are American, French and 2 British
I guess that is representative of my overall reading year.
Nigeyb wrote: "G wrote: "Yes, my own experience with the librarians is that rarely does anyone respond. I am most frustrated about a poetry chapbook that's stunningly brilliant but has no entry at all in GR, even..."Thanks, Nigey. The publisher's website has an image of the cover, but that's about the extent of its useful info.
https://moonstone-arts-center.square....
Info from my copy:
A Necklace of White Pearls
by Shez; tr. by Elliott batTzdek
Selected from Shez's collection Dance of the Lunatic, 1999. [This info is from the translator's intro.; the Hebrew title is not given; I see that Wikipedia article on Shez gives a slightly different translation of the title)
original lang.: Hebrew
Publisher: Moonstone Press
Date: 2024 (not sure of exact date and month)
26 pages
ISBN: 9781959038900
--------------------
I hope that's enough to go on.
Reading the 20th Century
Books mentioned in this topic
Middlemarch (other topics)The Sea, the Sea (other topics)
Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy (other topics)
My Name Is Red (other topics)
The Accursed (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Toni Morrison (other topics)Henry James (other topics)
Dorothy M. Richardson (other topics)
Warsan Shire (other topics)
Virginia Woolf (other topics)
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I think sex work in the UK desperately needs to be properly regulated, support services, health checks and mandatory health advice etc Organisations exist but have to seek them out. And online sites like Onlyfans that make money out of online sex workers, should have to provide all that info and support to their service users, and make it a condition that clients adhere to clear guidelines.