Reading the 20th Century discussion
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Welcome to The Midnight Bell (a virtual pub and general discussion thread) (2024)
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Just child with cuddly toys and killing angel now...
The child with the toys is a children's books with the animals in the title (the pelican is a diminutive name).
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So final clue - the killing girl angel...
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Roman Clodia wrote: "Got it! I'm done - now drooling at the thought of £500 to spend on books :))"It would be great wouldn't it, I think I'd invest in very expensive editions of things - like the hardback Woolf diaries.
Other than that I think the world is conspiring to annoy me this week, after the disastrous Diwali government event where meat and alcohol were served, I see that the organisers of VE Day celebrations want everyone to eat fish and chips! They also want more people of Asian heritage with links to wartime service to participate. Do they really not know that many of these will be people who don't eat fish? Or that there are large numbers of vegans/veggies in the UK these days in general. I suppose at least they don't expect us to add a saveloy on the side.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/202...
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And don't they know how expensive fish and chips is these days, even apart from veggies/vegans. Mind boggling.
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Her most well known book seems to be Ice but I'm also attracted by her stories and writing on 'madness'.
Roman Clodia wrote: "Has anyone read Anna Kavan? Her most well known book seems to be Ice but I'm also attracted by her stories and writing on 'madness'.
"Me, I've read quite a lot. Her work does vary in quality and it can be quite surreal, challenging at times. Her early novels like Let Me Alone are quite realist, not that interesting as fiction, but informative about her roots particularly her rather repressive Edwardian upbringing. I think maybe try Asylum Piece or A Scarcity of Love or perhaps the more experiemental Sleep Has His House. I picked up a copy of the NYRB collection Machines in the Head: Selected Stories which looks promising but haven't read it through yet - but does include pieces from across her body of work. Not a writer to tackle if feeling at all down, dread/all-pervasive anxiety tend to be her usual territory.
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Roman Clodia wrote: "Thanks, I was hoping you'd have some pointers here, Alwynne. Asylum Pieces popped up on a reading list for me and some of her more autobiographical writings. Kavan has some interesting supporters i..."I think she's well worth exploring, had a brief obsession with her and her work a while ago.
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Roman Clodia wrote: "Thanks, looking forward to exploring a new writer."Absolutely, although the review of Orlando Reade's What in Me Is Dark: The Revolutionary Afterlife of Paradise Lost in The Guardian's making me consider reading it alongside revisiting Milton.
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It's so fascinating, the tension between Milton's orthodoxy and his republicanism.
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Joining us on the night, we have:
A. F. Steadman
signing Skandar and the Skeleton Curse
Axel Scheffler
signing Jonty Gentoo
Craig Brown
signing A Voyage Around the Queen
David Nicholls
signing You Are Here
until 8pm
Elle McNicoll
signing Some Like it Cold
Ferdia Lennon
signing Glorious Exploits
Kate Mosse
signing The Map of Bones
Lorraine Kelly
signing The Island Swimmer
Lucy Jane Wood
signing Rewitched
Ned Palmer
signing A Cheesemonger's Tour de France
Patrick Grant
signing Less
Richard Ayoade
signing The Unfinished Harauld Hughes and The Fairy Tale Fan Club
Robert Harris
signing Precipice
from 7:30pm - 8:30pm
Saara El-Arifi
signing Faebound and The Ending Fire
Shirley Ballas
signing Dance to the Death
Terry Deary
signing A History of Britain in Ten Enemies
I'm still digesting the news about Cormac McCarthy. Am wondering what others' thoughts on this story are.https://www.theguardian.com/books/202...
https://defector.com/can-someone-plea...
G wrote: "I'm still digesting the news about Cormac McCarthy. Am wondering what others' thoughts on this story are.https://www.theguardian.com/books/202......"
Never really sure what to make of these things, clearly exploitative in broad terms but on the other hand the woman concerned seems happy to talk about it, so her perspective's important. Not sure I feel comfortable denying her agency by passing judgement. But happy to judge McCarthy since he was the one with all the power. It does seem this kind of relationship was common for male writers of a certain age/era - thinking of authors like Philip Roth. And if you think about Hollywood even now not unusual to cast much, much younger women as the partners/wives of much older male actors.
But I've never been keen on McCarthy so any reason not to have to read his work is more than welcome. What do you think?
I'm more affected by the death of former Labour minister John Prescott, the kind of working-class politician who's pretty rare now.
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To be honest, I just think it's the same old, same old dynamic...
The books I've read by McCarthy I've found immensely powerful, even when he's trading in images of the strong, silent, brooding masculine hero. So it wouldn't necessarily put me off, but I might have read the books of his that appealed already.
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Absolutely, me too. I thought John Prescott had an authenticity about him that was even rare in the Blair government (though Gordon Brown had something of it, even if it didn't always come over publicly). Prescott was old school Labour and completely unapologetic about that.
G wrote: "I'm still digesting the news about Cormac McCarthy. Am wondering what others' thoughts on this story are.https://www.theguardian.com/books/202......"
Not sure either. He did get her out of a bad situation. Although he may have used it to his advantage.
Alwynne wrote: "G wrote: "I'm still digesting the news about Cormac McCarthy. Am wondering what others' thoughts on this story are.https://www.theguardian.com/books/202......"
I think you put it well. I am frustrated that there was such an outcry over the Alice Munro revelations earlier this year, whereas this seems (so far) to be getting a more muted response. I can't say that's surprising, given the way women are judged more harshly than men. On the other hand, I find it troubling because McCarthy exploited a vulnerable teen, and engaged in what would likely be called grooming and sexual abuse when done by a less famous individual, then used her to make his art. Whereas Munro apparently found out about past sexual abuse long after the event, and did not respond in the way that people think she should have done. I'm glad the woman in question seems ok. I appreciate that the situation was obviously very complex, and she credits him with saving her from what seems to have been a worse situation. But one can protect a vulnerable teen without exploiting her. I come from a church background where a leader sexually abusing teen girls (even grown women) is sadly common, and the power structure is such that the women often see this behavior as normal, and when they can't accept it as normal, they are told it is their fault. That is what is making it hard for me to process the situation in this case, especially for the woman involved.
G wrote: "Alwynne wrote: "G wrote: "I'm still digesting the news about Cormac McCarthy. Am wondering what others' thoughts on this story are.https://www.theguardian.com/books/202......"
I thought referring to her as a 'muse' was quite odd, did seem to sanction the relationship. But I see it was in the seventies and my impression is that famous/wealthy men were rarely judged for this kind of age-gap relationship in that era. Didn't someone in The Rolling Stones do something similar? As did Woody Allen, Sinatra etc It's really about male entitlement and what limits were/weren't placed on them. I'm not condoning McCarthy but I think he probably thought it was his right/believed he was justified because of his status - and likely other men in his circle would have applauded and/or envied him. And have come across numerous novels where that kind of power dynamic is sanctioned - from Rebecca onwards.
I'm also aware that in parts of the US the age of consent was 14 until the 1990s. And I think that was the only constraint that was taken relatively seriously. So, for McCarthy presumably any woman over the age of consent was fair game? So I don't approve but neither am I totally comfortable about singling someone out for behaviour that was, for the most part, socially/culturally acceptable at the time it took place. To do that suggests this kind of exploitation of women was rare and only truly terrible men did it. But it was clearly commonplace tied to wider gender/power inequalities and notions of acceptable male behaviour in that period.
I do think it's appalling/depressing that so many vulnerable, young women were exploited by older men in the past. But, what bothers me more is that even now, post Me Too, not very much seems to have changed. Loads of celebrities like Leo DiCaprio have much younger partners, Melania is 24 years younger than Trump. Others, like Keanu Reeves, have been admired/even called brave for having relationships with so-called 'older women' when his wife is actually a few years younger than him - but has kept her naturally grey hair which is presumably unusual in Hollywood circles where everyone's desperate to look younger. And even though there have been outcries around figures like Woody Allen and Roman Polanski it doesn't seem to have damaged their careers in any real sense.
I agree there's a double standard where women are concerned but I also get the impression that part of the uproar over Munro is that she's known as a writer whose work is broadly feminist so her actions have been interpreted as undermining the messages in her work. If McCarthy, like Joss Whedon, had made a name with work centred on empowering women I imagine there may have been a stronger reaction? Whedon has effectively been cancelled for his treatment of actors/writers and for his many affairs with young actresses who were working for him at the time. I'm not sure that women play much of a part in McCarthy's fiction, it seems very much centred on hetero men. Authors/writers are a brand and I think that what is/isn't considered media/noteworthy about their actions is often tied to whether or not it hurts the brand.
Roman Clodia wrote: "Alwynne wrote: "I'm more affected by the death of former Labour minister John Prescott, the kind of working-class politician who's pretty rare now."Absolutely, me too. I thought John Prescott had..."
Agree, and about Brown, although think he's being rather disingenuous at the moment when it comes to speaking out against assisted dying. I think he should be more upfront about his devout Christianity and how far that drives his objections. I could also counter every one of his examples of so-called 'good' deaths with the deaths of friends and relatives that have been drawn-out and physically/psychologically agonising.
Anyone else noticed a possible glitch? Recently noticed that R. C. was posting links to reviews that weren't showing up on my feed - but should have. Then noticed a friend who reviews fairly prolifically had gone quiet - checked their page and a load of reviews that hadn't turned up on my home feed. Happened again today with someone who 'liked' an old review. When I checked their profile page they'd reviewed it but again not on my feed and again found a few recent reviews of theirs that also hadn't turned up. Checked my settings all of the reviews should have showed up.
Alwynne wrote: "Anyone else noticed a possible glitch? Recently noticed that R. C. was posting links to reviews that weren't showing up on my feed - but should have. Then noticed a friend who reviews fairly prolif..."No notifications have worked well for me since they discontinued the email summary and notification system back in, was it September? I get notifications for discussion threads I've never posted to, nor read, and do not get notifications for many threads in which I am actively participating. I certainly get no notifications for anyone's reviews, though yours and RC's do regularly show up in my "Home" feed--but not those of other GR friends that I have asked to see.
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Stranger Than Fiction: Lives of the Twentieth-Century Novel by Edwin Frank who runs New York Review Books - I've added it to my library list and there's a write up on the Guardian.
Roman Clodia wrote: "This sounds like a book for us: Stranger Than Fiction: Lives of the Twentieth-Century Novel by Edwin Frank who runs New York Review Books - I've added it to my li..."
I've got that on my tbr too thought it sounded fascinating.
Alwynne wrote: "Roman Clodia wrote: "This sounds like a book for us: Stranger Than Fiction: Lives of the Twentieth-Century Novel by Edwin Frank who runs New York Review Books - I..."
It looks very good and has had good reviews.
Stephen wrote: "Alwynne wrote: "Roman Clodia wrote: "This sounds like a book for us: Stranger Than Fiction: Lives of the Twentieth-Century Novel by Edwin Frank who runs New York ..."
It does, doesn't it. Lovely to hear from you again, you've been missed!
Alwynne wrote: "Stephen wrote: "Alwynne wrote: "Roman Clodia wrote: "This sounds like a book for us: Stranger Than Fiction: Lives of the Twentieth-Century Novel by Edwin Frank wh..."
Thanks Alwynne, that is so lovely of you to say that. I've been too busy work wise and a bit bogged down in Andrew O Hagan's latest, Caledonian Road. I trust you are well.
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I hope you’re enjoying Caledonian Road
Nigeyb wrote: "You’re a legend StephenI hope you’re enjoying Caledonian Road"
Lol
Reading an interesting article about How to Read. This is advice I normally ignore -- I like taking my time with a book and visiting with a writer I like for as long as possible -- but I acknowledge the value of the advice when reading is for purpose rather than recreation.
Most bookworms honor the taboo that it’s wrong to skip to the end. While a monograph is not a novel, doesn’t it disrespect a renowned stylist like White not to savor his masterpiece word by word, sentence by sentence, page by page, chapter by chapter? Maybe, but no more so than not finishing a great book at all, reading it like we learned in third grade.
The bane of grad students (and all harried lovers of serious nonfiction) is running out of time without getting to what’s most important. That’s a common if secret shame when you’re trying to digest three doorstops a week. Relearning how to read, under pressure, means getting what you (and nobody else) need most from this book.
https://commonplace.online/article/ho...
After reading a few chapters I practically always skip to the end. I will read the book in its entirety, but I like to know vaguely how the story resolves. Once a book is mine how I read it is up to me.
Sonia wrote: "After reading a few chapters I practically always skip to the end. I will read the book in its entirety, but I like to know vaguely how the story resolves. Once a book is mine how I read it is up t..."Absolutely. And sometimes the style is so awful, but the plot interesting, and you just want to see how it turns out and to read the best parts!
Ben wrote: "Reading an interesting article about How to Read. This is advice I normally ignore -- I like taking my time with a book and visiting with a writer I like for as long as possible -- but I acknowle..."
Boy, do I wish some of my grad school professors had been willing to talk about this. They all just said "we read one monograph a day, if you can't you don't belong here."
Thanks, Ben. This article was interesting, and had some very helpful advice, for me at least. Not for fiction, but for some of the history and the sociology/politics that are on my "if only there were time" list.
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This is very specifically for academic monographs and, frankly, makes a bit of a fuss about it. Most scholarly works will have an introduction that outlines the main arguments being made with a chapter by chapter breakdown of what is to follow. Each chapter will similarly introduce its questions and/or arguments, and summarize conclusions at the end. The final concluding chapter will put it all into context, summarize what has been learned and contemplate the implications before looking forward to future research - there, x-rayed, as he terms it! It's very unlikely that any researcher will read a monograph cover to cover (however much we might wish them to!) unless they're reviewing the book.
Are there lessons to be learned outside academia? I'm not sure as much popular history isn't necessarily making an argument so much as telling a story from a particular viewpoint whether that is acknowledged or not. I'm certainly more inclined to skim for interest here.
Fiction, as has been mentioned, is as much about tone, voice, atmosphere etc., which can get left behind if a reader is skimming. That said, I frequently skim-read plotty books where the story is the driving force without stylistic pleasures. Like Sonia, I sometimes read the end of a plotty book to see if it's worth spending time with, or if I just want to know what happens but the main text isn't holding my attention.
I'm skeptical about all of these 'how to read' books and articles: so much depends on which books, which readers, and what you're reading for.
Ben wrote: "Sonia wrote: "After reading a few chapters I practically always skip to the end. I will read the book in its entirety, but I like to know vaguely how the story resolves. Once a book is mine how I r..."I have a t-shirt that says "the journey is the destination". Of course, it is a Blue Ridge Parkway t-shirt. But, I think, it holds true for reading, too. I was a history major in college. I learned then that you need to know the route before disembarking at your final destination. I want to know how I got there.
In elementary school we were part of the SRA program - Science Research Association, possibly part of 3M, out of Minnesota. They had a certain style of reading - first paragraph and the last sentence. Or possible it was first sentence and last paragraph. It was 1959-60. We were guinea pigs. But somewhere along the way I found out more than I wanted to know in that last paragraph. I think it told me who the killer/suspect was. So I gave that up.
Now, I just read like a normal person and follow the breadcrumbs.
Jan C wrote: "Ben wrote: "Sonia wrote: "After reading a few chapters I practically always skip to the end. I will read the book in its entirety, but I like to know vaguely how the story resolves. Once a book is ..."Love that T shirt ! I'm a fellow breadcrumb follower . Complete immersion in the moment . Bliss .
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Really though Instagram is superb - so much inspiration there and watching videos is a particulary good way of getting step by step instructions
I expect YouTube is just as good
Tell him to embrace those Umami flavours, and the wonderful world of spices
I'm inventing a lot of my own recipes now
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Thanks! Hadn't heard of Happy Pear so will check out. Socials are so distracting and he likes to listen to Bruce Springsteen when cooking (!) so books are best here. And yes, we're a spicy household too!
HiHas Goodreads changed the way we can send a message to a GR friend. I have recently sent a few messages and not heard back. Just wondering?
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Has Goodreads changed the way we can send a message to a GR friend. I have recently sent a few messages and not heard back. Just wondering?"
Not that I've heard - I've had PMs from earlier this month.
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I went for Speedy Bosh! - thanks, it looks yummy.
Stephen wrote: "HiHas Goodreads changed the way we can send a message to a GR friend. I have recently sent a few messages and not heard back. Just wondering?"
I don't think they send an email to alert the recipient to a message any more, so they may not have spotted the flag on their message icon.
Roman Clodia wrote: "Does anyone have any recommendations for good, modern vegetarian cookbooks? Mr RC is totally on board with reducing his meat consumption but needs some inspiration beyond the basic veg chili/curry ..."Not vegetarian but I do have a couple of Mediterranean diet cook books. A lot of vegetarian type recipes.
I don't really buy cookbooks anymore, I tend to find recipes online. Although I do subscribe to some vegan sites that send regular recipes.I watched Josh Pieter's Lilly Phillips documentary recently "I Slept with a 100 men in a day" and wondered if anyone else had seen it? Or read any decent commentary on it or on Phillips?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFySA...
I think of myself as sex positive in general but I'm really struggling to work out what I think about Phillips. I totally support her right to make her own choices and indulge her fantasies. But the documentary suggests she's both very smart and emotionally very vulnerable. She's also surprisingly naive, she didn't know, for example, that swallowing semen might lead to contracting various STIs. I was surprised by how disturbed I was by the whole scenario.
Reading the 20th Century
Books mentioned in this topic
Middlemarch (other topics)The Sea, the Sea (other topics)
Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy (other topics)
My Name Is Red (other topics)
The Accursed (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Toni Morrison (other topics)Henry James (other topics)
Dorothy M. Richardson (other topics)
Warsan Shire (other topics)
Virginia Woolf (other topics)
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1. The killing angel (tried things like How to Kill Men and Get Away with It)
2. The old soldier/detective - tried the Richard Osman books
3. The child with the cuddly toys - tried random things like child's play
4. The comedy books on the table