Reading the 20th Century discussion
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Welcome to The Midnight Bell (a virtual pub and general discussion thread) (2024)
I'm still struggling with understanding what happened. My explanations so far:Amnesia about the dysfunction of the first Trump term. Goes along with general amnesia about Covid.
Inflation blamed on who was in office when it happened, rather than looking at underlying causes. Financial illiteracy means no understanding of effect tariffs and expulsion of migrants will have on cost of living.
Issue of cover-up of Biden's incapacity weakened Democrats' moral outrage over Trump. Harris was a weak candidate in 2020 and although she improved as a campaigner in 2024 she had no strong message other than not being Trump.
Trump exciting and entertaining, especially for young men. Wir brauchen einen starken fuhrer! And are there a significant number of women who want to "be protected, whether they like it or not"?
Strong motivation for evangelicals, Christian nationalists and racists to support Trump. Left remains divided over sectarian grievances, desire for purity in their candidates rather than compromise.
Ben wrote: "I'm still struggling with understanding what happened. My explanations so far:Amnesia about the dysfunction of the first Trump term. Goes along with general amnesia about Covid.
Inflation blamed..."
Those all sound plausible Ben, particularly struck by the lack of forceful messaging from the Democrats - from my reading seems as if they actually achieved some significant goals in terms of things like alleviating child poverty but they don't seem that effective when it comes to advertising their successes. Plus Trump has that whole Barnum-and-Bailey thing going for him. Lots of showmanship and promises of bread and circuses. Some of your points apply to the success of things like the British Brexit campaigners.
Also seen a number of articles suggesting many Americans couldn't bring themselves to vote for a woman. But did read that there were 12 million votes cast in the previous election that didn't show up in this latest tally, and that most of these were cast for the Democrats, so did Democratic voters abstain? Why didn't these people vote this time round?
There are so many important factors that the pundits are not talking about, as far as I can tell.The primary one is disinformation and the related foreign influence. Russia, China, and Iran were fairly active in spreading disinformation through social media. An alarming number of Americans apparently get their "news" only from social media, and seem to have no ability to discern what is obviously false from what is plausibly true. I have seen this among some of my own friends in real life. I follow Heather Cox Richardson, a superb scholar of US political history, and she said yesterday that people who read any kind of newspaper went 2 to 1 for Harris, whereas people who only rely on word of mouth and social media for their "news" went heavily for Trump--I forget the number; it was at least 3 to 1.
Not all disinformation comes from foreign agents; some originates domestically, especially with the Christian nationalist movement. That movement has grown exponentially in the last decade or two, and has taken over large swaths of the American evangelical church. It also has infiltrated the so-called mainline churches, which are generally much more progressive on social issues. This is a movement that has been ignoring historical reality and presenting a false narrative of America as having been founded as a Christian nation that has drifted away from its roots. I'm looking forward to the bookMoney, Lies, and God: Inside the Movement to Destroy American Democracy, because one of the scholars of Christian nationalism I follow said she had an advance copy, and thought what it said was so important she was tempted to break the rules and post the pdf online before the election.
There's also the problem of "sane-washing". The so-called legacy media have colluded in Trump's rise to power over the last decade by covering his behavior as if it is normal. He'd give the rambling speeches about sharks and Hannibal Lector and whatever other crazy things stuck to those in his mind, and papers would report his crazed meanderings as if it was a normal stump speech. Contrast that to their coverage of Biden's debate performance--which coverage itself acted as if Trump was in full possession of his faculties. Once Harris became the nominee, these same media pushed the narrative that she would fail because she didn't have specific policies. She kept offering specific policies, and they demanded more details as a condition of calling them policies, while presenting Trump's "I have the concepts of a plan" (which he has been saying for 8 years) or "Trust me, I'll fix it" as if they are credible policies. American journalism, even the once reputable sources such as National Public Radio had already gotten rid of most of their persistent investigative journalists, and hired reporters and radio hosts who would appeal to millennials. This meant substituting snark for substance. I so appreciate The Guardian, because it's done a better job of covering real news than any mainstream American source I can find.
There's more I could say, but this site is a refuge for many, and I don't want to fill it up with long political posts. I did think that these are points that need to be mentioned in the context of this thread.
All of these are reasonable points G, but why do people believe their social media sources and distrust newspapers? Why have the evangelicals gained credibility over the mainstream churches, which are losing members? Why do people who attend Trump rallies believe in his genius, poetic "weave" rather than take his incoherent ramblings as evidence of a violent and failing mind?I can't really blame the media. The facts are there for all to see.
I ask not to disagree with your points but because I want to understand why Trump's message has such broad appeal that it overcomes his corruption, his serial business failures, his immorality, his shallow understanding of the world and his transparent hypocrisy and self-dealing.
I have a long history of failing to understand the appeal of Republicans, having similarly failed to understand the popularity of Reagan, George W. Bush and now the Orange one. Clearly I am missing a key gene.
Alwynne wrote: "did read that there were 12 million votes cast in the previous election that didn't show up in this latest tally, and that most of these were cast for the Democrats, so did Democratic voters abstain? Why didn't these people vote this time round?"It looks like there were fewer registered voters for this election. Reliable statistics are not yet available but it does look like the voter disenfranchisement that Republicans have been pushing for years had an effect.
I don't know why there was lower voter turnout in some areas. For instance, in Philadelphia the percentage of votes for Trump was down, but the number of votes overall was too.
Frankly, I'm annoyed with all of the pundits' analysis. I wish someone would say what I'm thinking, which is we're face to face with the ignorance that's always been there but is now much more dangerous. Back when we all shared one relatively honest source of news, ignorant people could just follow along. Now with our choose-your-adventure facts, they follow along with the "shiny" ones, and vote accordingly. Those who do try to keep up with what is happening are considered elite, and hated. I feel like we've landed in the junior high school phase of history. (Possibly a particularly American idea, that horrible stage of 12-13 years old when everyone is miserable except for the bullies.)
Kathleen wrote: "Frankly, I'm annoyed with all of the pundits' analysis. I wish someone would say what I'm thinking, which is we're face to face with the ignorance that's always been there but is now much more dang..."Agreed.
Ben wrote: "why do people believe their social media sources and distrust newspapers? Why have the evangelicals gained credibility over the mainstream churches, which are losing members? Why do people who attend Trump rallies believe in his genius, poetic "weave" rather than take his incoherent ramblings as evidence of a violent and failing mind?"
That's the question. I think the answer is race. There are many other factors that contribute, but race runs through them all. This is not to say that all these voters are consciously racist, but that their ideas have been shaped by structural racism. I'll point anyone who doubts this to Heather McGhee's The Sum of Us: What Racism Costs Everyone and How We Can Prosper Together.
Another component, I think (but I am not a cultural historian, so haven't studied this) is grievance. Our economic systems have been steadily shifted in ways that disempower people, and to be honest while that shift was ideologically driven by Nixon and Reagan and their cronies, Democratic politicians have gone along with the basic shift, and have merely tinkered around the edges with a few ideas to slightly mitigate the economic damage in the lives of ordinary folks without addressing its causes. I would argue that Biden is the first president since Carter who has tried to address this structural exclusion from the economic system.
Simultaneously, a number of other factors have contributed to a wide swath of people distrusting government. Additionally, I've been noticing a significant growth in cynicism and grievance among almost everyone I interact with (in person, online, and in what I read) over the last few decades. I think T's success comes partly from his brilliance at playing that grievance.
Yet another factor: a recent study by PRRI (an independent research institution that studies religion and politics) found an astonishing correlation between support for T and a high score on the Right-Wing Authoritarianism Scale.
I also tend to agree with Kathleen's point: popular culture has embraced a know nothing attitude that despises anything it deems to be elitist. Those who align with T work hard to cultivate this split, even when they, like Vance, are elite themselves. (Vance claims to be from Appalachia, but most people who know anything about Appalachia know he is not from there, no matter what he claims.) I think this is partly the product the long tradition of American anti-intellectualism, but it's also partly that people who are working 3 minimum wage jobs to survive just don't have time and energy to inform themselves. And there's the fact that our public life has devolved into entertainment over the last half century.
Excellent points, G. I completely agree that race runs through all the factors, and anti-intellectualism is a deep-rooted American problem.I am terribly cynical myself, I'm afraid, and this blow to climate issues, as well as all the exposed hatred, doesn't help.
But I also agree that we need to speak to the problem of all the people working 3 jobs to survive. Perhaps Bernie can reach a large enough group to make some difference going forward.
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I agree with all the points posted above about social media replacing journalism, grievance, and interference/disinformation.
I would say I keep thinking of Plato saying democracy would never work because it depends on responsible, informed voters - but that would clearly be elitist, and from a non-white woman who doesn't know her place! 🙊
Maybe we all need to say the Plato part aloud, RC. :-)Speaking of the Guardian, I did read one analysis I liked, and it was from Rebecca Solnit.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentis...
I should add another thing. Biden made huge progress in resetting the economy and government to work for ordinary Americans. BUT, no one can undo in 4 years damage that is the result of 40 years of bad policy. And he had a razor thin majority in the Senate, which turned out to be no majority at all because Mansion and Sinema turned out to really be Republicans pretending to be Democrats. What I ser as the biggest problem with Biden’s policy successes is that he did not manage to communicate them to the whole country. I see several reasons why the message failed to get out. Some are things he should have done, or done better. Others are things outside his control (e.g. legacy media’s failures).
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www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/nov/...
Roman Clodia wrote: "On the topic of mainstream media, The Guardian got kicked out of a right-wing Project 2025 book launch: www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/nov/..."
I'm afraid we're going to see a lot more of that. At least this reporter didn't get punched in the face.
Nigeyb wrote: "I find a lot of wisdom and solace in the work of Oliver BurkemanI subscribe to his occasional email 'The Imperfectionist'. One arrived today, some of you might find its contents helpful....
I'm taking a break from the news. Okay, it's only been a week. Some news does trickle through. Like the cabinet he is proposing. I'm aghast!
H..."
Alwynne wrote: "Am finding following the post-US election news quite confusing, so many conflicting theories about the outcome. Bernie Sanders seems to make some sense, and I agree that for many people identity po..."If it helps any - I don't know what they're talking about half the time. Not something I come up against very often. But the righties want to push it as far as they can.
Locally, last year there was a big furor over whether a local bar could have a "drag show". They received beaucoup threats. And the bar hadn't previously arranged for security. They delayed the show. Left out a basket for donations and received more donations than they'd ever thought possible. They eventually held the drag show, with police protection. I didn't hear when they held it but read about it later in the paper.
Wasn't aware of any gays, although we found that several organizations helping people out. So perhaps there are trans here, too. Although it isn't talked about.
It is rough being blue in a red area.
Jan C wrote: "Nigeyb wrote: "I find a lot of wisdom and solace in the work of Oliver BurkemanI subscribe to his occasional email 'The Imperfectionist'. One arrived today, some of you might find its contents h..."
One historian I follow posted on BlueSky today that it's like he's setting the prisoners from Azkaban free and giving them posts in the government. Rather apt, I thought.
Ben wrote: "I'm still struggling with understanding what happened. My explanations so far:Amnesia about the dysfunction of the first Trump term. Goes along with general amnesia about Covid.
Inflation blamed..."
They think they did so much better economically under Trump. Forgetting that Trump's inability to handle a pandemic is what caused their economic problems. The price of eggs? There was an outbreak of avian flu (or some other disease) among the chickens and many had to be destroyed. The price of eggs rose because there were fewer chickens to lay the eggs. I have trouble with economics but even I can understand this. But they don't want to do any research or even read a newspaper with actual news in it. And now we will all pay the price. Woe is me!
The sad thing is that the good economy they remember from Trump was actually Obama's economy. And he will try to take credit for Biden's economy. Biden should have got more credit for fixing the roads.But then came Helene and the misinformation (or Trumpaganda as I heard it referred to a few days ago) from Trump. I believe my congressman, Chuck Edwards, did try to correct some of it but not forcefully enough. They believed him when he said that Biden was giving the FEMA money to the illegal aliens of the Ukranians. They did not want to believe that they were different funds. As though the government only has one fund.
Thanks so many interesting/thoughtful responses will read through and respond too.
Mod
Exactly my thoughts - and I appreciate hearing 'frontline despatches' from our American friends.
The most baffling thing for me is that people who are legitimately anxious about e.g. Gaza or working three jobs to get by, think a crowd of felonious billionaires are on their side?
That baffles me as well, RC. But people in other times have bought into this idea. In the American South in the 1850’s, for instance. That generation was even willing to go to war to preserve the oligarchs.
Jan C wrote: "The sad thing is that the good economy they remember from Trump was actually Obama's economy. And he will try to take credit for Biden's economy. Biden should have got more credit for fixing the ro..."This is so true, and so infuriating. I keep flashing on the movie Working Girl. Does anyone remember it? When Melanie Griffith is being forced out of her job because her boss claims Melanie's idea was her own. When I hear all this stuff, I keep quoting Melanie, in that Melanie voice: "But you're LYING!"
When lies stop mattering, everything changes, and that's where we're at now.
Kathleen wrote: "When lies stop mattering, everything changes, and that's where we're at now."That, for me, is probably the single most frightening part of this whole situation. We've seen it coming for a long time, and nothing we've done has changed the trajectory.
At least, as the votes continue to be tallied, it turns out that T got very little additional support from voters (1.7 million is fairly small in proportion to the number of votes cast, not to mention the total population of the country). It's that Harris got approximately 8.3 million votes fewer than Biden did. The question is why, and I don't think we can know that yet. Republican voter suppression laws worked, clearly, but I don't sense that that is the whole picture.
Still, we all have to live with the new administration's efforts to turn the US into a Russian client state.
Interesting series of tweets today on JCO's account in which she explores the anti-LGTBQ culture issues that motivated some of the Trump voters.I spent part of the morning finding some of my old Twitter follows on Blue Sky and filling out my list there, but JCO is staying on Twitter for now along with some other accounts, so I look in on them individually every so often.
G wrote: "Still, we all have to live with the new administration's efforts to turn the US into a Russian client state..."Good essay by Tim Snyder on this point. https://open.substack.com/pub/snyder/...
Roman Clodia wrote: "I would say I keep thinking of Plato saying democracy would never work because it depends on responsible, informed voters - but that would clearly be elitist, and from a non-white woman who doesn't know her place!..."I've always thought that the main virtue of democracy is not that it produces the best leaders but that it allows the voters to throw out the worst ones ... eventually.
Ben wrote: "Interesting series of tweets today on JCO's account in which she explores the anti-LGTBQ culture issues that motivated some of the Trump voters.I spent part of the morning finding some of my old ..."
Who is JCO?
I saw the Tim Snyder piece, and in fact shared it in a private group on FB. I loved his Oligarch's Island piece yesterday.
I'm aiming to post at least one Bit of Beauty for a Mad World every day on BlueSky as my small bit to counter the nihilism we are swamped with. Also, in light of the lovely article on 1065 medieval names for dogs article in this weeks medievalist.net newsletter-- https://www.medievalists.net/2024/11/... --, I'm imagining a kennel of snarling mangy mutts named (for starters at least) Bragger, Blabbe, Dynghill, Lewde, and Malaperte snapping around a resolute desk, shredding the drapes and pooping on the floor. I'm going to see if I can turn that into some kind of on-going satirical fable. I'm not very good with fiction; creative non-fiction/personal essay is more my thing (and disability interferes with that), but I'm going to see where that thought takes me. In the end I went with my real name on BlueSky for several reasons, not the smallest of which is that I think this moment calls for standing out in the open to speak. (I do NOT condemn anyone who does not feel free to stand in the open.) I don't have family, so I don't endanger anyone but myself.
Mod
If you're interested in dogs' names, there's the catalogue of Actaeon's hunting pack of dogs that tear him apart when he's transformed into a stag by the goddess Diana - in the original Latin of Ovid's Metamorphoses they're not named but the 1567 Arthur Golding English translation gives them distinctively local names, one of the many places where he 'Englishes' the poem. This is the translation that Shakespeare used mainly.
Penguin publish the Golding translation as Metamorphoses with this cover:
Roman Clodia wrote: "JCO is Joyce Carol Oates.If you're interested in dogs' names, there's the catalogue of Actaeon's hunting pack of dogs that tear him apart when he's transformed into a stag by the go..."
Thanks, RC. I know very little about Greek/Roman mythology. The tales never appealed to me; it did not help that the only available source was a smaller than pocket paperback version of Edith Hamilton with minuscule print. I didn't expect to inhabit a world in which the myths turned into daily headlines. I'll take a look at this translation of Metamorphoses.
Mod
Golding is a much looser translation, more a C16th Englished adaptation - I only mentioned it for the named dogs which are an insert not in the original. Plus it's in 'fourteeners' which can't help feeling slightly comic in English!
Roman Clodia wrote: "If you want to read Metamorphoses, then I'd recommend the David Raeburn Penguin translation as it gives the best feel for the wit, pace, and ironies of the Latin original. Golding is a much loose..."
Thanks.
Love the Ovid, well worth reading. Just to say that the Hidden Books game is up now, a couple were a bit annoying - one title punctuated differently and another not strictly a book. https://hiddenbooks.nationalbooktoken...
Alwynne wrote: "Love the Ovid, well worth reading. Just to say that the Hidden Books game is up now, a couple were a bit annoying - one title punctuated differently and another not strictly a book. https://hidde..."
The Hidden Books is a bit addictive. Was pleased to see some older books this year, think it was only the romantic comedy I had never heard of.
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Roman Clodia wrote: "Ooh, Hidden Books! That's my Friday night sorted. Please could people check this thread later for when I'm stuck and need pointed clues?! 🤔"Planning a lazy evening so happy to check in from time to time.
Ben wrote: "Interesting series of tweets today on JCO's account in which she explores the anti-LGTBQ culture issues that motivated some of the Trump voters.I spent part of the morning finding some of my old ..."
Good on you Ben, says something about the impact of this group that I immediately realised you meant Carol Oates!
Mod
Christmas Customer Evening at Waterstones Piccadilly
Thursday 5th December 2024
18:00 at Waterstones, London - Piccadilly
We're thrilled to be back for one of the highlights of the Piccadilly events calendar - the Christmas Customer Evening. Join us for an evening of festivities featuring mince pies, music from London Oriana Choir and of course the chance to meet some of your favourite authors and grab signed copies of their books. If you're stuck for Christmas gifts, you've found the perfect place for inspiration!
Joining us on the night, we have:
David Nicholls
signing You Are Here
until 8pm
Ferdia Lennon
signing Glorious Exploits
Kate Mosse
signing The Map of Bones
Lorraine Kelly
signing The Island Swimmer
Lucy Jane Wood
signing Rewitched
Richard Ayoade
signing The Unfinished Harauld Hughes and The Fairy Tale Fan Club
Robert Harris
signing Precipice
from 7:30pm - 8:30pm
Saara El-Arifi
signing Faebound and The Ending Fire
Shirley Ballas
signing Dance to the Death
Keep an eye on our socials and on this webpage for more author announcements to come.
Mod
Did it feel harder than usual this year? I've only got seven so far but don't seem to be in the right creative headspace so will go back to it tomorrow. The cookery books clue reminded me of that book I want to read!
Roman Clodia wrote: "Alwynne wrote: "Planning a lazy evening so happy to check in from time to time"Did it feel harder than usual this year? I've only got seven so far but don't seem to be in the right creative heads..."
It took me longer than usual, the choice of books seemed more haphazard, and some of the clues were fairly arcane, others were weirdly obvious - so didn't immediately get them because I was expecting something more complicated. I got the panda one right the first time but took three goes because they'd left out the punctuation in the official title! And I thought the barbershop quartet one was a bit of a swizz. Also don't recall them including non-fiction titles in the past.
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G wrote: "Roman Clodia wrote: "JCO is Joyce Carol Oates.If you're interested in dogs' names, there's the catalogue of Actaeon's hunting pack of dogs that tear him apart when he's transformed ..."
I seem to remember having to read both Edith Hamilton and Bullfinch. One was probably in high school and the other in college. But a lot of small print.
Roman Clodia wrote: "Ha, yes I got the panda straight away but kept getting the 'nearly right' message till I googled the title! Haven't got the barbershop quartet yet. The security camera felt too obvious as did the m..."The babershop quartet clue is for a quartet of books, not a specific book. You have read at least the first one.
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Roman Clodia wrote: "Thanks Sonia - I'd been trying variations of 'quartet' and getting nowhere, will try again later and pop back."Pay attention to the use of colour.
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Ha - got it! Yum...
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That was a cute clue. The coastal one got me, typed in a 'say what you see' answer and got a nearly then spent ages typing in variations before giving in a looking for a clue.
Reading the 20th Century
Books mentioned in this topic
Middlemarch (other topics)The Sea, the Sea (other topics)
Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy (other topics)
My Name Is Red (other topics)
The Accursed (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Toni Morrison (other topics)Henry James (other topics)
Dorothy M. Richardson (other topics)
Warsan Shire (other topics)
Virginia Woolf (other topics)
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Ewww, even creepier if he's changed his profile pick - though maybe other people might have complained.
Yeah, weird getting requests from people whose politics are diametrically opposed - my favourite was getting a friend request from a lady who believes David Icke is the prophet of our time and writes detailed reviews of all his books! If only, she pleads, the rest of us could open our eyes to alien lizard people all around us...