"The Giver" by Lois Lowry (BR)

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Hi all,

No rush, the official start date for the BR is still a couple days off and a couple weeks for the Forum on Formative Spec Fic! But I was here now, so I am starting the thread.

We will use spoiler tags! Please say what chapter/page/rough percentage you're at so we can all follow along at our own risk!

Who's joining?

[Melanie, the neutral party]

Mee!

[Sarah]

Me! One of my Fave MG books 💯

[Cheryl]

I've read it several times, in teacher training and in the Children's Books group. I may not again, but I'm sure that I can participate. Excellent book.

[Cheryl L]

Me too! I have it sitting on my nightstand. If I recall, this is a super fast read. I may have read it the first time in one sitting.

[Olga]

My loan in Libby arrived a few days ago, so I'm all set up and ready to start :)

[DivaDiane]

I will join in too!

[Cheryl L]

I've finished the first 5 chapters. Just planning to read 5-6 chapters each day.

I've just finished Brave New World and The Giver is such an interesting juxtaposition. Both feature absolute obedience to society's rules but go in very different directions about how the rules are enforced.

Another interesting point of comparison is the way in which sexual activity and reproduction are controlled. (view spoiler)[In Brave New World, people are expected to be completely promiscuous with no attachment to any one person, whereas in The Giver, sexual desire is eliminated during puberty with daily medication. Biological parents have no bearing on the upbringing of children in either story. No family unit exists in BNW, but in The Giver, the family unit is assigned and children are not biologically related to their parents. (hide spoiler)]

I may need to reread The Handmaid’s Tale next to complete a trio of dystopian novels about state control of family structure. Yay!

[DivaDiane]

Ack! I’m about 2/3 through Starljng House but I just borrowed both the ebook and the audio from Libby, so I hope I’ll get to start this in a day or 2!

[Olga]

I’ve read only the first chapter so far and had some conflicting feelings about it.
I kinda understand that all this feeling sharing will turn out to be a tool for controlling people, but so far the tradition to talk about one’s day and examining the feelings seems so damn good. I’m talking just about sharing more with the family. I’d like to have more of that in my life.

[Sarah]

Right! That’s what I think it does so well - toes that uncomfortable line of relatable.

[Olga]

Yes! Relatable. That’s the word I needed.

[Cheryl]

Yes. In so many ways this society and structure in The Giver seem ideal... it takes an innocent reader awhile to realize that it's not a Utopia for everyone.

[Cheryl L]

Olga wrote: "So far the tradition to talk about one’s day and examining the feelings seems so damn good"

It's the enforcement of the sharing that seems alarming to me. It doesn't account for differences in temperament. I think about myself in that kind of society. I'm an introvert who does best processing things internally.

I agree with Sarah too. So many of the practices seem like things we think of as good but they toe the line of uncomfortable when enforced or in excess.

[Olga]

Yes, I understand that later on the way the wrongness of this practice will be revealed, I was talking about this little part, revealed in Chapter 1. So far it seems benign and even good. :)

[Olga]

Finished Chapter 12, could not put it down yesterday evening. And ohmygosh!
(view spoiler)[I also had to read the instructions Jonas got twice. Even for me, who didn't grow up in this community they seemed shocking. I wonder when and why he starts to really lie.

Also, only after Jonas' visits to the Giver did I finally realise the extend of the Sameness. They don't have colours, they don't have hills, they don't even have sunshine (how though). And all that in order to not give people any choice at all, because if they can choose what colour shirt to wear, they (the audacity!) might want to choose spouses and jobs. That gave me the chills. (hide spoiler)]

[Cheryl L]

Olga wrote: "Finished Chapter 12, could not put it down yesterday evening."

I couldn't put it down either and actually finished it yesterday.

(view spoiler)[I agree with you on those rules. I read them a few times and then sat and pondered the far-reaching ramifications to daily life. That some lying is sanctioned is very interesting. I thought the rule about being able to ask people questions was also interesting. I'm not sure how it benefits the Community to not have people ask questions that might be uncomfortable. Maybe because they're not allowed to lie?? (hide spoiler)]

[Olga]

I also finished the book and have actually read the first two chapters of the next one in the series :)

When I just finished the book, my only thought was (view spoiler)[ "Please-please-please tell me they didn't die". The last scene with the sled and the house and the music was so beautiful at first, but then my brain woke up from its stupour and went "Wait, what? How? No way there would be the same sled and the same house from memories from back, and back, and back. They just fell in the snow and froze to death".

So I went and read the blurbs for the next books... which were no help, because names Jonas and Gabriel weren't even there. With heavy heart I googled it and, thankfully, there is apparently some connection between Jonas and Gabe and the characters from other books, so there's at least indirect evidence that they survived. It's a pity though that they aren't in the other books. I liked Jonas's POV and would like to see how Gabe grows up.

In any other book this ending - so blatantly fairytailish after such a realistic (in its own way) book would have bothered me, a lot. But somehow it doesn't. I'm not even going to try and understand it. (hide spoiler)]

I also came across a 2014 film based on the book and watched it. As far as film adaptations go, this seemed to me a good one. Aleksander Skarsgård and Meryl Streep were a huge and pleasant surprise.

[Anna]

Olga, if you want answers to some of your questions and want to meet some people again, do read the entire series! :)

[Olga]

Already on it, Anna ))) Although I don't know how I'm going to take it all... These are very heavy ones.

[Anna]

I was exactly where you are when I first read The Giver, so I feel you! It's an interesting series, the books/protagonists/situations are so different, but it all works together in the end.

Although I have to add that I also like the ending of The Giver, and had I not known about the other books, I would have been satisfied.

[DivaDiane]

I just started and have read 5 chapters as well. So far, it’s very similar to the movie, but we’re still in set up mode.

[Cheryl L]

Olga wrote: "I also finished the book and have actually read the first two chapters of the next one in the series :)"

I'm not sure I'll read more of this series to find out the answers, but I had the same thought as Olga. (view spoiler)[ I decided that they either found the house at Christmas (which is funny because I finished reading it on Christmas) or froze to death, and the last scene is a hallucination. (hide spoiler)]

I know this a middle grade book but I still would have liked more science. (view spoiler)[ How did they get rid of color and sunshine and rain? They have crops and fields. Wouldn't they have at least had rain? (hide spoiler)]

All in all, though, I really enjoyed this book. I understand why it won the Newbery. Very well written with an appropriate level of dystopia for middle graders.

[Cheryl L]

Anna wrote: "Although I have to add that I also like the ending of The Giver, and had I not known about the other books, I would have been satisfied."

I agree, Anna. I like The Giver as is without additional books. I tend to like books that leave me wondering or interpreting the end of the story.

[Anna]

Me too, I absolutely love a vague, open ending!

I don't know if the second book was ever supposed to be tied to The Giver, or if they just happened to find their way to each other when she was writing, because at first they seem to have nothing at all to do with each other. For me The Giver is a standalone book, and then the other three books are a series that you should only read if you've read The Giver.

[Cheryl]

Anna wrote: "The Giver is a standalone book, and then the other three books are a series that you should only read if you've read The Giver...."

I agree!

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

I am horrified. I would have sworn on Once and Future King, anyone's holy book, the IRS handbook or the rulebook for chess that I had a physical copy of the Giver in my home. I cannot find this book.

So tomorrow I intend to go buy it, so I can read it for the umpteenth time. Sorry I'm a bit late, I've read it multiple times before so I'm cool to chat spoilers, but I wanted to discuss things as I read them as a full adult.

[Michelle]

I wonder if you loaned it to someone, and maybe they never returned it? Sorry, I was stalking this thread :)

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

I may have done! Either way, this is a cosmic misbalance I have to correct toute de suite!

[DivaDiane]

I hate when that happens! I too was looking for a specific book that I know I own and can’t find it.

[Anna]

(This reminds me of when I really wanted to read a certain book and trekked to a library on the other side of Helsinki to get it, only to notice it was on my bookshelf when I got back home XD

Also had a little laugh when I read "OaFK, anyone's holy book")

[Sarah]

I’m somehow in the same boat. I thought I had a copy at the fam’s house but it’s vanished!

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Sorcery! Thieves! Ne'er-do-wells!

[Melanie, the neutral party]

I started listening to the audiobook today. I know I've read the book before, but I don't remember many details beyond the ending. Especially not the great foreshadowing in the opening.

Here are some alternate media I feel are inspired by this book:
*This short-film Ryan posted on discord a while back [The Academy]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBFo0...
*this fictional podcast [Within the Wires]: https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0...

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Finally started!

I'd forgotten that in the first "chapter" (view spoiler)[ we learn that the community knows that there are planes to fear, and that we learn what Release is. I also forgot their were other communities with similar agendas but different tactics! (hide spoiler)]

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Finished!

(view spoiler)[

This was I think even stronger for me as an adult. Like Olga, so much of this seems so nice. Attentive families, physical and emotional safety, time to focus on things like curing pain and playing and social cohesion.

But a society that has no concept of mortality? That completely removes death from its vocabulary? That has zero language for addressing how we differ? I wonder if some part of this was in response to the late 80s "tolerance" curriculum in schools, which said that you don't have to like people who are different, but you have to respect and tolerate them.

I wonder what the fear of the plane was. Was that a residual of feelings? Was it just that it's a big machine that if it fell could hurt a lot of stuff? (hide spoiler)]

[Olga]

Finished the third book, Messenger
(view spoiler)[Can't stop crying. (hide spoiler)]

[Cheryl L]

Olga wrote: "Finished the third book, Messenger
[spoilers removed]"

Wow, Olga! Very impressive!

[Anna]

No need to stop crying, you'll need your tear ducts in working order for book four!

[Olga]

Anna wrote: "No need to stop crying, you'll need your tear ducts in working order for book four!"

Really? I was actually hoping for a reprieve. :(

[Anna]

It's a much longer book than the others, you won't have to cry *all the time* !

[Olga]

81% into Son and I don't like it.

(view spoiler)[
For the love of me, I don't understand why include "he (father) used him (son) as a wife in other ways too" (not exact quote) in a book for teenagers! The things his father done to the boy were already awful. I hate this atrocity for the sake of atrocity. Plus this particular trauma should have messed the boy way worse than he was.
And cutting his legs off? Seriously? How did he not bleed out? How did he get back down? And why though? Just because he's evil? Again evil for the sake of evil. Hate it.

The other thing that just drives me up the wall is how it took Claire SEVEN freaking years to finally have the bright idea to talk to Jonas. SE-VEN!!! I absolutely hate these fake "last moment" situations, when there is no real reason for things not to happen earlier. I kind of can understand that she didn't want Gabe to know her as an old person (but not really actually, it's stupid), but how in the world didn't she think of talking to Jonas before? At least to know more about Gabe's years that she missed.

If somehow after all that Claire and Gabe don't end up together, I'm giving the book two stars. Because there's no valid reason for them to have waisted seven years that they could have spent together before any awful ending that might happen when they go up against Trademaster.

And yes, no crying this time. Too angry for that.
(hide spoiler)]

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Resurrecting this! Any other thoughts? I'd love to hear them!

For some controversy, I've read that some consider this a Puritanical idealogical propaganda piece. Comments?

[Meredith]

This was the first time I've read this and I really enjoyed it. I thought it presented some difficult topics in a very gentle way since we were seeing them through the eyes of the young MC and his interpretation.

It reminds me of Rivers Solomon's The Deep (view spoiler)[ where one, also relatively young, person holds the memories and trauma of the community . (hide spoiler)]

[Cheryl]

Allison wrote: "... I've read that some consider this a Puritanical idealogical propaganda piece. Comments?"

What *is* a Puritanical idealogical/ ideological propaganda piece?

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Sorry for spelling errors!

I guess they read Jonas as a Christ figure and the idea is that he's preaching a moral universal standard?

[Brandon]

I would have a very hard time calling Jonas a Puritanical hero. He has intense physical desire for Fiona. He wants to work against the Sameness dystopia, and that's about as far as I took it.

[DivaDiane]

My copy had a bit at the end by Lois Lowry where she recounted the book’s genesis (basically she wanted to write a book with a bit more action and adventure!) and its reception and ongoing attitudes towards it. I remember she mentioned that there are groups that read a lot of Christian ideology into it (that was not her intention) and there are other Christian groups that call for it to be banned. IMHO that consitutes a good book that can inspire thought and contemplation and interpretation in many ways.

[Cheryl]

DivaDiane wrote: "...IMHO that consitutes a good book that can inspire thought and contemplation and interpretation in many ways...."

I agree. Because if there's one thing that extremists can agree on, it's that letting the people think for themselves is a bad thing.

[Cynda]

I read this some years ago. I will look for a copy now so I can reread with . . . .Found audiobook on Boundless (Axis360).