Dickensians! discussion
This topic is about
Pears' centenary edition of Charles Dickens' Christmas books
Novellas and Collaborative Works
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The Battle of Life (hosted by Petra)
By The Fireside in Doctor Jeddler's Study by Charles Green, 1912
Clemency Newcombe by Charles Green, 1912
You Said I Wasn't To Give You One Before Them, You Know, said Clemency by Charles Edmond Brock, 1907
Dr. Jeddler Reads Alfred's Letter by Charles Green, 1912
Omar wrote: "Sam instead of updating works, I'm in favor of annotated editions, If a work is updated we can gloss over the curious pieces of information groups like this can clarify."I'm glad I provoked a discussion on how to handle "out of date" phrasing, words, and expressions. I absolutely agree we shouldn't edit out what we are unfamiliar with or what is no longer in style.
I am an American, and in the US this is a huge topic of controversy. It affects almost every author you can think of, past or present. The example that pops to mind for me is how Mark Twain
used the contemporary word to describe Jim as a Negro in Adventures of Huckleberry Finn: The only authoritative text based on the complete, original manuscript (Mark Twain Library) by Mark Twain.
Actually, the way that the citation above reads "the complete, original manuscript" makes me wonder if I have EVER read the book Twain actually wrote.
So yes, even though it can be annoying to have a narrative interrupted by things that are no longer "current", the original should be preserved and annotated.
Part the Second Summary 5:Clemency, after hearing the exchange between the family, went back to the kitchen, where she found Britain with a pipe in his mouth, a pot of beer at his elbow. Clemency tells him that Alfred is returning and a wedding was anticipated.
Britain had grown more at ease over the past three years. He was more cheerful, broader, and jollier. Clemency admits that she wishes she were getting married. Britain laughs and she laughs back with him. She asks him if he’d ever consider getting married. After thinking about it, he says yes but he wasn’t certain of it either, but thought he would. Clemency wishes his future wife joy.
Clemency mentions that she may have a part in his future wife’s joy for being there with Britian and shaping him over the years. He agree and says that he had been through a number of situations before coming to the house soured. He’d listened to many discussions and arguments, which soured his mind even more. But the wisdom of a nutmeg grinder, combined with a thimble, was a pleasant guide through life.
Perhaps a nutmeg grinder and thimble weren’t the best philosophy but their words wear well and stop a lot of squabbling and suffering. He declares that he and Clemency will always be friends and they shake hands on it.
Clemency and Britain by Harry Furniss, 1910
Britain and Clemency in the Kitchen by Charles Green, 1912
I love these illustrations, Petra! Particularly the Furniss ones, and in this one, the way Clemency's elbow is so prominent!I've caught up now, and found this last section with Britain and Clemency one of those lovely little Dickens vignettes, giving us a little break before trouble is certainly on its way.
In other discussions, I have mentioned how fond I am of finding passages in Dickens' works that influenced filmakers in developing film techniques which became popular in world cinema. Already from the opening passage, we saw Dickens describe the battlefield from the day fought, concentrating on images of the battle's effect on the ground of the field , and then describe how this "battlefield" changed with time. This description would be seen in film as montage, where a number of images would be assembled and then edited so when shown in the film they could suggest an idea or the passage of time. Dickens followed this montage in prose with a scene where we see the two girls from slightly above and then Dickens follows them through the scene as they dance. This type of scene also became a standard with a crane or boom shot that then tracks down to the subjects and often follows them in a tighter shot as they complete the business for the scene. In this last passage, Dickens uses the mirror images from the various pans to reflect various aspects of Britain. This funhouse technique was also used a great deal in films especially thriller films and German Expressionism. How much of it was influenced by this specific scene, I don't know, but there seems a good possibility that someone was influenced.
Kathleen wrote: "I love these illustrations, Petra! Particularly the Furniss ones, and in this one, the way Clemency's elbow is so prominent!I've caught up now, and found this last section with Britain and Clemency one of those lovely little Dickens vignettes, giving us a little break before trouble is certainly on its way...."
Thank you, Kathleen. The illustrations for this little story certainly are well done and numerous. I'm loving them, too.
I agree. These last two days' reading has been peaceful and serene......a bit too much like the "calm before the storm" to be truly relaxing.
I'm sure Dickens has something up his sleeve for us.
Sam wrote: "In other discussions, I have mentioned how fond I am of finding passages in Dickens' works that influenced filmakers in developing film techniques which became popular in world cinema. Already from..."Sam, I love your comments on how this could (would) be shot as a movie, with all the techniques available today.
I really like how you can show us how Dickens' descriptions can be brought to the screen so true to life. I'm now picturing the girls dancing in the orchard and having this filmed effectively to portray Dickens' words using a boom or crane.
Thank you.
Part the Second Summary 6:He hears hear a footstep outside, sounding as if someone was dropping outside. Clemency heard nothing. Britain goes outside to have a look and make sure things are okay.
A figure enters the kitchen and startles Clemency. It’s Marion. She must go out and see someone. Suddenly Michael Warden is at the door. Marion tells him to go hide and she will come to him soon. He leaves. Marion asks Clemency to stay awake for another hour. Pressing Clemency’s hand to her breast in an entreaty of trust, Marion leaves the kitchen. After which, Britain comes back. He enters the kitchen and locks the door, after having found nothing outside.
He's startled at Clemency’s surprised look, finding her on a stool & trembling. Clemency recovers and tells Britain that his talk of noises and lights in the yard had frightened her. Britain wasn’t sure whether to believe her but she appeared normal again, so shaking his head, he goes to bed.
Shortly afterwards, Marion returns and asks Clemency to unlock that door and wait for her return while she goes to speak with Michael. Clemency unlocks the door, then looks back at Marion. She tells her to think about what she’s going to do and bursts into tears. Clemency offers to give Michael Marion’s message herself. No good will come of Marion going to Michael herself.
Marion insists that she must speak with Michael herself. She entreats Clemency as the friend she’s been for all these years to trust her. Marion invites Clemency to come with her. Clemency opens the door, takes her hand and they go through it.
Marion and Michael talked long and earnestly. The hand holding Clemency’s turned cold, it trembled, gripped hers tightly….all in turn. Afterwards, Michael walked them back to the door, grasped Marion’s hand and kissed it before leaving them.
They locked and barred the door again. The look on Marion’s face was again there. That look of something that cannot be described. The tears flowed freely from her eyes.
She thanked Clemency for her trust and friendship, then returned to her room and prayed. She went to Grace’s bed and kissed her sister’s forehead. She slept well herself except for one dream where whe cried out that she was all alone and forgotten.
Britain Hears a Footstep by Charles Green, 1912
Marion With Clemency by Charles Green, 1912
Michael Warden's Nocturnal Interview With Marion by Charles Green, 1912
For Alfred's Sake by Harry Furniss, 1910
The Secret Interview by Daniel Maclise, 1846
these illustrations are awesome!, I sense a hint of shame in Marion's depictions, which I hadn't got from the written page (I had only imagened, freightened anticipation before I saw the illustrations).
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Yes, you are probably thinking of (view spoiler). But on the other hand it is a fairly common plot device in Victorian fiction, so feels familiar anyway!
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I'm having to recreate the post I wrote for this, as GR fell over and lost it 🙄
Basically though I don't know any such term, and think perhaps there won't be one, because what is dated to one person is not to another. It would be yet another term which is too fuzzy to nail down, like "classic".
We all have different experiences, and are subject to time and place. What was familiar to Charles Dickens's contemporary readers is obviously not always going to be at the front of our minds. So I will write "and a little more" posts about e.g. Richard Dadd, who was the artist who Mr. Dick in David Copperfield (keeping to that novel) was based on, or a contemporary politician or aristocrat which even English people may not have heard of but was perhaps a figure of fun to his contemporary readers.
It's very subjective, I think.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cox%27s...
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Most readers will be aware that in "Dickensians!" we always have the closest to the original edition on our shelves, and in rare cases where Charles Dickens himself altered something, (e.g. in Dombey and Son and Oliver Twist) our discussion will detail these changes.
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And yes, how I do agree about Charles Dickens's skill in creating a sense of calm before a storm - or tragedy followed by humour, come to that.
Bionic Jean wrote: "Shirley (stampartiste) wrote: "Was there a similar situation where a young woman was lured to London on pretext of a marriage that didn’t materialize? Was it in David Copperfield?" "Yes, you are probaby thinking of [(hide spoiler)].
Yes, Jean! That was the couple I was thinking of. And Kathleen, too, apparently saw the similarity (message 219). Thank you! It's been driving me crazy. LOL
I love how Clemency's simple "thimble and nutmeg grinder" philosophy (though Britain doesn't think it would be "considered good philosophy") saved Britain from a life of pessimism and fatalism.I really felt Dickens' condemnation of Marion when he repeatedly questioned how Marion:
*could* pray with her secret weighing on her heart;
*could*, so tranquil and serene, look upon her sister's face and smile;
*could* sink into peaceful sleep... "God bless her!"
This really surprised me, as Dickens usually shows so much compassion for his heroines.
Petra, I love all of these new illustrations, but particularly love the way Furniss and Maclise depict Clemency's abject sorrow of what Marion is doing to herself and to her family.
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Oh sorry Kathleen - I must have missed that when I was recreating the lost posts 😆 Thanks for mentioning it Shirley 😊
Sam, I really liked your thoughts about how cinematic Dickens writing can be. Along that vein, I think his writing can also feel as if it's written for the stage. The scene we read today felt like that. A loud sound is heard outside. Britain exits to see what it's about. Marion enters, then exits before Britain returns. I half expected to read some stage directions like "Marion exits stage left".I've been wondering about Clemency. She is one of my favorite characters at this point in the story. It's an interesting name to give a character, I think. It brings to mind words like mercy, leniency, forgiveness. I'm interested to see what Dickens will do with Clemency as the story unfolds.
One final thought, I was happy to see in the reading yesterday, that Dr. Jeddler talked about Grace and Alfred as a "couple" when they were young. I've had the impression that Grace has very deep feelings for Alfred since the beginning of the story. I wonder what will happen there. Does Aldred feel the same?
(sorry for a long post. I'm just getting caught up after a few days away from reading.)
Kathleen and Omar, I'm glad that you are enjoying the illustrations. I am, too. They give hints (or not?) of other ways of interpreting the story.In the three illustrations depicting Marion's meeting with Michael, I get different impressions:
In Green's illustration, it appears as if Clemency is watching closely and is sad at what she's hearing. It's the only one of the three illustrations where Clemency is looking towards Marion & Michael (and the reader). Michael seems to be pleading with Marion, while Marion seems uncertain and sad.
In Furniss' illustration, it looks as if Marion is giving Michael instructions and he is listening carefully to them. In this illustration, Marion is in charge of the situation.
In Maclise's illustration (original to the time of publication), Marion looks demure and unwilling, while Michael seems to be giving the instructions (or commands?). In this illustration, Michael is in charge of the situation.
Three different outlooks, all with possible different intentions and outcomes.
Bionic Jean wrote: "Petra - you are providing a veritable feast of illustration for us here! Thank you so much for everything 😊And yes, how I do agree about Charles Dickens's skill in creating a sens..."
Thank you, Jean! I'm having a blast with these illustrations. Who would have thought that such a short story would inspire so much artwork. It's wonderful.
Shirley (stampartiste) wrote: "Petra, I love all of these new illustrations, but particularly love the way Furniss and Maclise depict Clemency's abject sorrow of what Marion is doing to herself and to her family. ..."Yes! Clemency truly looks sorrowful in those illustrations. She's very broken up about what she's hearing.
Perhaps Michael is swaying Marion with his request? I'm assuming he's here to press his case, as he told Snitchey & Craggs he would do.
Bridget wrote: "One final thought, I was happy to see in the reading yesterday, that Dr. Jeddler talked about Grace and Alfred as a "couple" when they were young. I've had the impression that Grace has very deep feelings for Alfred since the beginning of the story. I wonder what will happen there. Does Aldred feel the same? ..."The Doctor's thoughts got me thinking of this, too, Bridget.
If Grace & Alfred were a couple in earlier years, what happened to them? Was it a mutual coming apart?
Why did he turn to Marion? Is Grace as accepting as she appears with the union of Marion & Grace?
The sisters seem close and loving. How & why would Marion become engaged to her sister's past beau? That's an awkward situation. (I don't have any sisters, so perhaps it is not as awkward as I'm imagining?)
The Doctor's comments brings up a bunch of past scenarios that we are not privy to.
Part the Second Summary 7:A month passed. The day arrived of Alfred’s return. It was a stormy winter day. Dr. Jeddler waited for Alfred’s arrival. All of Alfred’s friends were invited, musicians were hired, the table laden with foods.
The day was a busy one for everyone. Grace was the busiest of them all, presiding over everything, as cheerful as ever. Many times, Clemency looked at Marion. She seemed a bit paler, but her composure was sweet and serene and she was as lovely as ever.
As they dressed that evening, Grace placed a wreath of flowers on Marion’s head. The wreath was made with Alfred’s favorite flowers. Marion’s face became pensive and spiritual. Then she smiles at Grace and holds her tight. They speak of happiness and a happy home. Marion says that she can see in Grace’s eyes that their home will be a happy home.
The doctor rushes in to greet them. Alfred will be arriving shortly before midnight, but the party will begin before then. He looks at his daughters and declares them beautiful.
Marion asks that her father forgive his daughters any pain they may cause him in future. She asks this forgiveness for both her and Grace while their hearts are all full of love and gratefulness, then goes to hug him.
Her father gently replies that his girls are so good that they have never vexed him but if they ever had, he would forgive them immediately. He kisses her and asks for more wood on the fire to prepare for the guests.
Shirley (stampartiste) wrote: "I really felt Dickens' condemnation of Marion when he repeatedly questioned how Marion:..*could* pray with her secret weighing on her heart;*could*, so tranquil and serene, look upon her sister's face and smile;
*could* sink into peaceful sleep... "God bless her!"
Shirley, that's an interesting interpretation of that passage. I had an opposite reaction to that passage. I saw it as Dickens showing us that Marion found some internal resolve, or peace, since talking with Warden, and that peace allows her to pray. Your comments are wonderful as they are making me look deeper into the story. You may very well be right!
Dickens mentions Marion had a dream that night. That she cries out in her innocent and touching voice. She dreams she is all alone and everyone has forgotten her. If she's contemplating running away with Warden, that might be a real consequence for her, poor thing.
Already I am anticipating trouble for the Jeddler family, then the raging winter storm as they prepare for the party adds to the feeling of foreboding.
Shirley, I've also been thinking over your interpretation of that passage. It's an ominous condemnation. Is/Would Dickens put blame on someone for leaving a loveless bonding for a loving one? Or would it be a condemnation for being fooled by a sweet talking man who wants one's fortunes? Originally, I also read the passage to mean that Marion has building up some courage for a difficult decision.
Bridget wrote: "Shirley, that's an interesting interpretation of that passage. I had an opposite reaction to that passage. I saw it as Dickens showing us that Marion found some internal resolve, or peace, since talking with Warden, and that peace allows her to pray. Your comments are wonderful as they are making me look deeper into the story. You may very well be right!"I enjoyed reading your interpretation of this passage, Bridget! This is what I love about the Dickensians! group reads... getting different understandings of the same passage.
I re-read the passage again and tried to see it in the way you read it -- Marion finding peace with her decision to leave home and join Warden. This would have been more in keeping with the compassion that Dickens almost always feels towards his female characters.
Part of me could see where Marion talked herself (or allowed Warden to talk her) into doing this and finding happiness and peace in her decision (as when she told Grace, "I never was so happy."). But in today's reading, when she told her father "All that one of them [his daughters] has ever done, or may do, to cause you pain or grief, forgiver her now." This leads me back to the question that I thought Dickens posed, "How could you?" So I just don't know how to read that passage.
I do feel sorry for Marion. All of her life, she has basically been told you will marry Alfred, the only suitable boy you have ever known. The way that Marion danced in the orchard that day shows that Marion is full of life and wants more out of life than a sedate life with Alfred. He would bore her, I think. Then she meets someone new. Someone exciting. She has no experience or alternative. Does she love Michael Warden? I don't know. But I think she feels that if she doesn't take this chance, another one may never come again. So I do understand her actions and feel sorry for her. If only she would have felt comfortable confiding her feelings with Grace and her father! I'm sure they would have never "forced" her to marry Alfred.
Bridget wrote: "Already I am anticipating trouble for the Jeddler family, then the raging winter storm as they prepare for the party adds to the feeling of foreboding...."
Bridget, I agree. The atmosphere of a "dark and stormy night" bodes evil and misfortune.
There are a few moments in this preparation for the party that seem forboding: Marion hugging Grace so closely, asking for forgiveness.....it feels very ominous.
Petra wrote: "Is/Would Dickens put blame on someone for leaving a loveless bonding for a loving one? Or would it be a condemnation for being fooled by a sweet talking man who wants one's fortunes?"We posted at the same time, Petra. Yes, I can definitely see these questions as well! So much to think about!
The Doctor seems quite happy and jovial about Alfred's return. He basically raised Alfred and must have missed him during his absence. It's rather sweet to see Dr. Jeddler being happy and looking forward to something.
Mod
Bionic Jean wrote: " Charles Dickens is so good at controlling his puppets!That he is, Jean.....that he is. It certainly keeps us on our toes.
Part the Second Summary 8:The fire was built up, the lights lit, the guests arrived, and the house was filled with cheer and anticipation. People kept coming. Marion kept smiling. Everyone was animated and lively in expectation.
Mr. & Mrs. Cragg came but Mrs. Snitchey arrived alone. Where was Mr. Snitchey? Mrs. Snitchey tersely states that he’s at the office but she knows not why. She’s not told about office business. The two of them make some snide comments about business matters and men with an office having no business being married at all.
Mrs. Snitchey feels that the comments have given Cragg a feeling of guilt, while Mrs. Cragg tells her husband that the Snitcheys are deceiving him and he wouldn’t know until it was too late.
Mr. Cragg looked nervously around him and went to Grace when he saw her and presented himself. He asks about Marion and is assured that she is well. He asks whether she is at the party and Marion points her out on the dance floor. Mr. Cragg puts on his glasses to see better and breathes a sigh of relief. He then returns his glasses to his pocket.
The dance began. The fire rose and fell as if it, too, were dancing. The dancing was underway when Mr. Snitchey came up to Mr. Craggs. Snitchey relates that Michael has been with him for the past three hours and more. They had gone over all the details of his file and checked all the arrangements made for him.
The dance ends and Marion crosses the room and comes close to Snitchey and Cragg without seeing them. She looks over her shoulder to her sister as she walked through the crowd and out of their sight.
Craggs asks whether Michael had mentioned Marion. He had not. Has he left? Yes, he’s a man of his word and will be on the sea at low tide. The tide flows an hour before midnight, which was at that very time. It is over. Michael has gone.
Cragg starts to mention Marion but Snitchey stops him. Bad luck to mention names. They mustn’t look as if they are talking of secrets. It’s a relief that this situation is over. He asks about Alfred and hears that he hasn’t arrived yet but is expected shortly.
One of the things I love best about Dickens is the way he brings the inside of a home to life. We’ve felt the warmth of the fire and seen the holly twinkle, and now, “the lights were bright, and company arrived, and a murmuring of lively tongues began, and already there was a pleasant air of cheerful excitement stirring through all the house.”
Kathleen, it's wonderful how Dickens makes inanimate objects into characters who add personality to the story.I liked how the fire became a part of the party, dancing with everyone. One can just see the flames flickering high and low, swaying back and forth.
The lawyers are good friends to the family. They took great care to ensure that Michael left without contact with Marion. Snitchey babysat him for the evening, missing part of the party in the process. Cragg checked on Marion's presence before enjoying himself and relaxing.
Petra wrote: "...Is/Would Dickens put blame on someone for leaving a loveless bonding for a loving one? Or wo..."This is a question I find I'm grappling with so frequently when reading Dickens. He seems to treat those characters which are in Victorian terminology 'fallen women' with sympathy - and they occur in his novels with frequency. I don't want to give examples because of spoilers.
I don't know whether this has any strict relevance, but the year in which he published The Battle of Life, he was working with Angela Burdett-Coutts towards founding a home for fallen women. Urania Cottage opened the following year.
https://spartacus-educational.com/DIC...
The cynic in me also suspects that Dickens was on the side of those who pursued romantic love despite the social consequences for personal reasons as well as in the name of social reform. His separation from his wife in, I think, 1862, and subsequent attempt to have her placed in an asylum to avoid damage to his reputation by divorce, is appalling.
Mod
I'm sure it does, Petra. Thanks MN and Petra for raising this. Charles Dickens was an insomniac who spent hours walking the streets of London at night, and he became very concerned for the plight of destitute women, and those who had fallen into prostitution, (as he could see it) through no fault of their own. So as you said, Petra, the urge to help them was reaching its head, as he wrote The Battle of Life.
MN wrote: "The cynic in me also suspects that Dickens was on the side of those who pursued romantic love despite the social consequences for personal reasons as well as in the name of social reform. His separation from his wife in, I think, 1862, and subsequent attempt to have her placed in an asylum to avoid damage to his reputation by divorce, is appalling."I did not know this! That is indeed appalling!
MN, I am also always appalled when I read about how Dickens treated his wife after their seperation. It seems quite out of character and quite unfair & unexplained, I think. His actions towards her were not those of the caring, kind man we have learned about.
Part the Second Summary 9:Mr. Snitchey and Mr. Cragg's wives appear at their sides and Mr. Snitchey states his intentions of enjoying the rest of the evening. His wife comments that his absence has been noted. The wives again comment on business and how it interferes with domestic peace.
Mrs. Snitchey pulls Mr. Snitchey away and asks him to look at his partner, the person who is his chosen companion as she cannot be. Snitchey assures her that she is his companion. But she continues lamenting that Craggs is the keeper of his secrets and the one he trusts. She again beseeches Snitchey to look at him.
He looks over towards Cragg. Mrs. Snitchey continues that if Snitchey doesn’t realize that he’s being used by Cragg, she feels sorry for him.
Meanwhile, Mrs. Cragg was saying the same things to Mr. Cragg. Didn’t he realize that Snitchey was teeming with treachery and cunning? Couldn’t he see that Snitchey was had a secret?
Both Snitchey and Cragg kept their quiet and waited for their wives to finish speaking, which was when the dancing began again.
Mr. Snitchey asked Mrs. Cragg to dance and Mr. Cragg asked Mrs. Snitchey to dance. The ladies accepted. This was a custom for the two couples, who were good friends. The treacherous, cunning Craggs and Snitcheys that the wives spoke of were recognized fiction. The wives felt that their stories brought them into the business and made the business more successful.
Dickensians!
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Authors mentioned in this topic
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Jump to the home of the Doctor. He, Grace and Marion are in front of the fire. Grace is doing needlework; Marion reads aloud from a book.
The doctor, relaxed in his dressing gown, listened to the story and watched his daughters. They were beautiful women. In the past three years, some of the differences between their looks had softened but Marion still appeared the lovelier and the weaker of them. She relied a lot on Grace for advice and comfort.
The passage in the book is about leaving home and Grace asks Marion to stop reading as it is making her sad. The Doctor laughs at the folly of believing that a home is anything more than four walls, a fictional one less than that.
Clemency enters and gives Dr. Jeddler a letter. She notes the initials AH in one corner and speculates that he is on his way home and the wedding will occur soon.
Dr. Jeddler reads the letter and sure enough, Alfred is coming home. He will arrive in a month. Marion goes quiet. Grace is happy for her. As Marion looks into her sister’s face & eyes. A smile and joy came to her face.
Something else also came to her face. Something akin of love and gratitude but more but not to put one’s finger on. But something good, whatever it was.
Dr. Jeddler read and reread the letter, He recalls the days when the children were young and Alfred & Grace had skipped around the yard. Grace, too, recalls those days and how Marion was always close by. Grace was always a positive child, except for one subject. Alfred. As a child, she had said that she was Alfred’s wife. Grace barely recalls saying this. She is happy for all three of them that Marion is marrying Alfred. It will be a happy time for them all. She looks forward to giving Marion back to Alfred after these three years of his trusting Marion to Grace. Grace picks up her needlework again and the doctor resumes watching his daughters and contemplating his thoughts.