18. Penelope and Ulysses as a whole

[Suzann]

Parallax seems like a pivotal concept. Parallax depends on a viewer, an object, and the background. The reader and multiple narrators could be considered the viewers who might have very different visions based on the line of sight. On the other hand, some narrators might be creating background against which other viewers see the object. Parallax makes for complex perspectives, something with which Joyce may have had fun playing! Different viewing angles might create seemingly contradictory sights both of which might be accurate for the respective viewers. The Joyce manuscripts show that he worked very hard to give Molly a contradictory statement for every one she made. Maybe she is flexible in her perspective. She can see and feel both sides. Maybe it's not femininity, but roving around her objects (and herself) and seeing from different perspectives. Any other ways to apply parallax?

[Thomas]

Molly's thoughts ebb and flow like water -- the thoughts stream out of her, first one way and then the other. She thinks if women were in politics there would be no more wars: "you wouldnt see women going and killing one another and slaughtering...because a woman whatever she does knows where to stop," but then a few lines later "its some woman ready to stick her knife in you I hate that in women no wonder they treat us the way they do we are a dreadful lot of bitches" It's contradictory, but Molly never aspires to logic. Her thoughts are in constant motion, like water. And Bloom is the water lover.

Incidentally, the main female character in Finnegans Wake is Anna Livia Plurabelle, the river Liffey personified.

[Thomas]

Kathy wrote: "But she's in her late 30s? She's been doing this a long, long time. Unless she's experiencing some unusual changes or health issues, it would be too ho-hum to comment on, except that Joyce himself finds it titillating or daring to write about. "

Joyce wanted Ulysses to be, among other things, an "epic of the human body," and so far in the book I think we've seen everything a human body can do -- digest, defecate, urinate, fart, belch, vomit, ejaculate, give birth -- and menstruation appears to be his finishing touch.

[Genni]

Everyman wrote: "Genni wrote: " Anyway, off or not, his decision to end with an unsympathetic character is interesting. "

Actually, I found her fairly sympathetic in a sad, vulnerable way."

Maybe her actions are unsympathetic and the hurt underlying the actions are sympathetic. Can we have it both ways? :-)

PS- I hope your eyes are doing much better.

[Genni]

Patrice wrote: " If we needed absolute proof that a man wrote this, this is it
line 176

"Our Lord being a carpenter at last he made me cry OF COURSE A WOMAN IS SO SENSITIVE ABOUT EVERYTHING"

Ha! That is a classic, a man's opinion. I can't see a woman, remembering something that made her cry, saying "women are so sensitive about everything". No way, no how. Women don't make generalizations about women in that way. That's looking at a woman or "women" from the outside. If written by a woman she would be remembering from her pov. She might think "I was too sensitive" not "women" are too sensitive. But even that is far-fetched, I think, because she would understand her own reaction. A man would not. Would a man, engaged in a fist fight, look back on it and say "Men are such hot heads about EVERYTHING."

Patrice, you may start to feel like I am picking apart everything you say, but seriously, I was justtalking to another woman the other day about females in the work place and we were saying this exact thing. We were making generalizations about how women tend to be more sensitive. It is not always true, of course, but I agree too, that it sounds like something men would also easily say. Good point also, about women tending to understand their own reactions.

[Genni]

Lol! Ok, truthfully, I am such a woman. My friends all tell me I apologize way too much for everything. As soon as I say or do something, I worry I'm being too..whatever. But also, my closest friends tell me I'm just weird. Lol while I would be the one crying and simultaneously realizing that I'm being too sensitive, I do not think I am the norm at all.

[Genni]

Haha. Oh, yes. All men everywhere, take note.

[Everyman]

Thomas wrote: "Carl Jung wrote...
"Your book as a whole has given me no end of trouble ...I shall probably never be quite sure whether I did enjoy it, because it meant too much grinding of nerves and of grey matter.""

Jung speaks my mind.

[Everyman]

Genni wrote: "We are only provided an hour (?) inside of Molly's head. Nothing is resolved."

Good point. In fact, I think it would have been much less effective if Joyce had tried to resolve anything. Life just doesn't resolve in a single day. We are given the thoughts and experiences from that single day, but any resolution is up to us.

[Everyman]

Thomas wrote: "To me, the glaring flaw of Ulysses is that there are so few women in it. "

But there are very few women in the Odyssey, too, so isn't that reasonable? Doesn't every major woman in the Odyssey have a counterpart in Ulysses? Would you want Joyce to invent more females that had no Odyssean counterparts?

[Everyman]

Genni wrote: "Linda wrote: "Lily wrote: "What fun! The next season's episodes you all are writing! ;-)"

ULYSSES: The Next Day

lol."

Hilarious. :p"

Or perhaps Bloomsday Redux

[Everyman]

Kathy wrote: "Well, I'm not quite finished with this chapter, but I would have to agree with Genni. I have no real problem with Molly. I don't actually find her unlikeable at all. She's somewhat amusing and very much her own woman."

Yes. I find her quite human. Maybe because I'm a man and so don't miss the feminine voice. But she's authentic.

[Everyman]

Thomas wrote: "Here I think it's both, and that's what is so clever about this breakfast request. Bloom has has been playing the submissive all along, but I don't know that he really is. He gives Molly the freedom to go with Boylan and come back to him, as if he knows that is how it going to work out. Just like Odysseus knows that no one will be able to string his bow. "

That's very nice.

[Kathy]

Hoo-boy, I've been reading too much Joyce. "No one will be able to string his bow" sounds like sexual innuendo to me, though I have no idea how!

[Kathy]

Susan wrote: "The Joyce manuscripts show that he worked very hard to give Molly a contradictory statement for every one she made."

Learning this rubbed me the wrong way at first glance. I thought maybe this *is* what Joyce thought of women--they're contradictory, can't keep a straight thought--because I couldn't explain it in terms of Penelope. Why would he make Molly this way? Then I realized it may be the answer to a question I had when I finished the book: What is Molly's equivalent to Penelope's weaving and unweaving? Maybe it's all of her contradictory statements. She makes them, then unmakes them.

[Thomas]

Everyman wrote: "Thomas wrote: "To me, the glaring flaw of Ulysses is that there are so few women in it. "

But there are very few women in the Odyssey, too, so isn't that reasonable? Doesn't every major woman in ..."

Joyce plays so loosely with the Odyssey that I don't see that as a compelling excuse. He is far more interested in creating a realistic picture of Dublin than he is in following the Odyssey point-for-point. Even so, where is Athena?

The trouble I have is that the women in Ulysses are more often than not props for the male characters, with the exception of Molly, who really does exert her own presence in the book -- but not until the very end, and almost as an epilogue.

[Suzann]

Kathy wrote: "What is Molly's equivalent to Penelope's weaving and unweaving? Maybe it's all of her contradictory statements. She makes them, then unmakes them.
..."

I like this idea!!

[Suzann]

I've never been satisfied with the explanation for UP:up and wonder if it might be a cryptogram with sexual innuendo and another of Joyce's jokes. If U and P are female and male, then Y might be malefemale or just a solitary female freezing out the male! Always a contrary way to look at it!

[Thomas]

Susan wrote: "I've never been satisfied with the explanation for UP:up and wonder if it might be a cryptogram with sexual innuendo and another of Joyce's jokes. If U and P are female and male, then Y might be m..."

I don't think there is a satisfactory explanation for UP:up, but Suzette Henke says that "up" is Molly's favorite word. It appears about 130 times in her monologue.

[Everyman]

Thomas wrote: "...where is Athena? "

I've pondered that question occasionally, and have no answer unless Dublin itself is Athena. It seems to be, in some sort of way, the driving force behind events which is Athena's role in much of the Odyssey.

I'm not wedded at all to this idea, but just toss it out to see whether, as they say, it sticks to the wall.

[Everyman]

Thomas wrote: "I don't think there is a satisfactory explanation for UP:up, but Suzette Henke says that "up" is Molly's favorite word. It appears about 130 times in her monologue. "

And yet it is men, not women, who are said to get it up.

[Genni]

I'm curious about something. Is Joyce's realism any more "real" than other novels that came before? What I mean is, just because books typically resolve, does that make them unrealistic? Events and conflicts are resolved in real life all the time. Just because a novel "happens" to end on a day when they resolve makes them idealistic instead? Or were Joyce's techniques significant because they focused on unresolved aspects in a way that had not been done before? I have not reAd Virginia Woolf before, but I have seen some comments about her streams of consciousness writing. Was she a precursor to what Joyce did? Thanks to whoever answers. :-)

[Genni]

Your point about Athena makes a lot of sense to me. In that way, Joyce's novel stands in stark contrast to Homer. In the Odyssey, not only are the gods present, but they directly intervene in decisions and actions. That is something completely left out of Joyce's version.

[Suzann]

Thomas wrote: "I don't think there is a satisfactory explanation for UP:up, but Suzette Henke says that "up" is Molly's favorite word. It appears about 130 times in her monologue. .."

There's nothing tidy about anything Joyce, but your information is wonderfully satisfactory IMO! Thanks!

[Everyman]

Genni wrote: "Your point about Athena makes a lot of sense to me. In that way, Joyce's novel stands in stark contrast to Homer. In the Odyssey, not only are the gods present, but they directly intervene in decis..."

Nice exchange, Genni and Patrice. There were some earlier novels that didn't resolve, where the characters walked off into the sunset with lots of questions about their future lives still a mystery, so Joyce wasn't the first in that respect, but his is more totally open ended than any other earlier work I can think of offhand.

In addition, the point about no guidance from God or apparent purpose is interesting. But daily life is like that, isn't it? I think purpose or divine guidance is only seen or appreciated in a longer term than one day. If we saw Bloom's and Molly's lives over a longer period we might find more purpose than appears in a single day. After all, I think if any of us just described our normal activities on a normal day anybody we told it to would be hard pressed to find the purpose or guidance of our lives.

This is one aspect in which the Odyssey and Ulysses are so totally different. Ten years versus one day. That's a pretty significant difference!

[Hilary]

Just to say that my eyes are burning and my ears are sore. It's almost 2am and I just finished listening to the audio and reading parts of the narrative. I thought that this episode was read excellently; thanks again Sue for the link.

I'm afraid I've only read a few comments. Genni, your comments paralleled almost eerily exactly what I was thinking. I felt that Molly was an embittered woman, but had her reasons, just as Bloom was a deeply flawed character. She rang true to me.

I understand that her soliloquising could be seen as strongly infused by a man's understanding of women, nevertheless, there are many such women. Surely a male author must not be restricted to writing about men?
Authors cannot experience every personality, foible or philosophy espoused by their characters; they can only try to identify as well as possible. Joyce can't be a Molly, a Stephen or a Boylan, but he can still write about them or through them. Of course it will be subjective. It can't be otherwise.

As has already been said, she does love Bloom. I don't believe though that this excludes her from experiencing sexual attraction for someone that she doesn't believe is 'half the man'. That seems to be part of the draw to Boylan: he is not at all like Bloom.

When Molly is spiteful about her period, this may not be unconnected with the thought that she won't have another child. Also, in those days the whole process was a major hassle compared with today. They didn't have radiantly happy swimmers in TV advertisements: "Have a happy period!" Nor, as in a UK ad, would there have been blue liquid pouring unto a pad. These adverts are aimed at sales and at attempting to fool women into feeling "Oh, what a spiffingly wonderful day. These agonising pains, irritability and depression are exquisite. They remind me of the miracle of being a woman. I shall grab a 'Tampax Compak' and skip among the daisies whilst giving thanks to the Mother Goddess for making me a female."

In Molly's day she neither had the materials nor the reassurances that we have today. Which woman does not spring into a new life of celebration with each monthly visit?!

Finito! Benito? Not sure, but glad I have reached this point, however shambolically! Thanks again, Thomas, and everyone. I think that I need a holiday in the sun; six months to a year would do for starters ...

[Kathy]

Genni wrote: "I'm curious about something. Is Joyce's realism any more "real" than other novels that came before? What I mean is, just because books typically resolve, does that make them unrealistic? Events and..."

I am always interested in the ongoing struggle of postmodern writers to somehow capture "reality" in writing. While these experiments make for interesting reading as experiments, ultimately I don't think they satisfy what we actually look for in fiction. I've probably said this before, but I think fiction actually exists to give us resolution because we don't get it in real life! That seems, to me, to be one of its primary functions. It satisfies something that is missing in our experience of reality. I think that goes a long way toward explaining why, while many of us found Ulysses an interesting and stimulating and thought-provoking read, people made a lot of comments about not being emotionally engaged by it.

[Genni]

Hilary wrote: "Also, in those days the whole process was a major hassle compared with today. They didn't have radiantly happy swimmers in TV advertisements: "Have a happy period!" Nor, as in a UK ad, would there have been blue liquid pouring unto a pad. These adverts are aimed at sales and at attempting to fool women into feeling "Oh, what a spiffingly wonderful day. These agonising pains, irritability and depression are exquisite. They remind me of the miracle of being a woman. I shall grab a 'Tampax Compak' and skip among the daisies whilst giving thanks to the Mother Goddess for making me a female."."

Can't. Breathe.

[Genni]

Everyman wrote: ".In addition, the point about no guidance from God or apparent purpose is interesting. But daily life is like that, isn't it? I think purpose or divine guidance is only seen or appreciated in a longer term than one day. If we saw Bloom's and Molly's lives over a longer period we might find more purpose than appears in a single day. After all, I think if any of us just described our normal activities on a normal day anybody we told it to would be hard pressed to find the purpose or guidance of our lives.
"

That is true! Purpose is often not realized all at once. The novel focuses on all the points around realization or epiphanies.

[Genni]

Kathy wrote: ".. I've probably said this before, but I think fiction actually exists to give us resolution because we don't get it in real life! That seems, to me, to be one of its primary functions. It satisfies something that is missing in our experience of reality. I think that goes a long way toward explaining why, while many of us found Ulysses an interesting and stimulating and thought-provoking read, people made a lot of comments about not being emotionally engaged by it. ."

But this is exactly what I am wondering about! I think we DO experience resolution. People get married, personal conflicts with others are worked out, problems that bother us for years are settled, etc, etc. If we were in a constant state of suspension, that would be terribly uncomfortable. I don't know if I could stand it. It is kind of one of the reasons why I don't understand why people Are so disappointed after the feelings of first being in love fade. People are constantly trying to recreate those feelings. Why? Those feelings are not great, if you ask me. Can't eat, can't sleep, can barely concentrate on anything or get anything done...you see my point. sure, it's exciting, but if it stuck around too long with everyone, it would destroy society. :p and I'm way off point now. Lol.

Anyway, we do experience resolve in reality, don't we?

Btw, i am on of the ones who kept complaining about not being engaged emotionally. Lol

[Everyman]

Genni wrote: "But this is exactly what I am wondering about! I think we DO experience resolution. "

We do in many (though not all) aspects of life. But even as one situation resolves, others pop up that aren't resolved yet. And as those get resolved, others . . .

[Thomas]

Hilary wrote: "Just to say that my eyes are burning and my ears are sore. It's almost 2am and I just finished listening to the audio and reading parts of the narrative. I thought that this episode was read exce..."

Congratulations, Hilary! There's something very appropriate about finishing Ulysses in the wee hours of the morning, when the book itself ends.

Molly knows Boylan isn't "half the man" Bloom is, as you rightly note, and at the end of the day she knows that Bloom's love transcends the physical. In this incredibly physical book the "payoff" is that the physical isn't what matters -- it is the spirit that transcends the physical.

--But it's no use, says he. Force, hatred, history, all that. That's not
life for men and women, insult and hatred. And everybody knows that it's the very opposite of that that is really life.

--What? says Alf.

--Love, says Bloom.


Enjoy your holiday in the sun!

[Nicola]

Hilary wrote: They didn't have radiantly happy swimmers in TV advertisements: "Have a happy period!"

And diving off high diving boards and doing a double pike into the water.

I remember those adds :-)

[Kathy]

Genni wrote: "But this is exactly what I am wondering about! I think we DO experience resolution. People get married, personal conflicts with others are worked out, problems that bother us for years are settled, etc, etc. "

I don't think we experience the kind of resolution that comes from fiction. I agree that we have wonderful, satisfying moments of resolution, but they don't last long. There's never a moment--unless you count the moment of death for one of those lucky people who can say I know I'm about to die and I have no regrets, my work is done--at which our lives are complete the way the world of a novel is completed. One of the "rules" of writing fiction is that there has to be some kind of "redemption" at the end, some final sense of closure. But as Eman points out, as soon as we get closure on one thing in life, something else opens up! It's a continual juggling act, and we have to grab those moments of resolution and satisfaction in life when they happen and appreciate them.
In any case, I think that's one of the primary functions of traditional "realistic" novels, of which Ulysses is most decidedly not one! Although, interestingly, I think the ending *is* meant to give us some of that traditional sense of resolution and closure.

[Kathy]

Here's a good little four-minute clip on defining postmodernism. Even though Joyce was technically one of the Moderns in terms of his time and his peer group, I think you can hear a lot of echoes of Ulysses in these attempted definitions:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oL8Mh...

[Hilary]

Hahaha, Genni! Oh I remember the diving board too, Nicola. Didn't we all just rush out and form a queue to make sure that our tampon stores were groaning in readiness for our first big showcase dive?!

Thanks for the 'congratulations', Thomas. I love your summing up. It's so true that the spirit transcends the physical. Love is the ultimate theme. Of this I was totally unaware until Molly had said her part. Then it began to become clearer and not to mention your invaluable help. There was a subtle gold thread lacing its way through the whole narrative, largely unseen until the dénouement.

Thanks also Thomas for your holiday wishes. I shall lather myself with high factor sunscreen, wear a straw hat, sunglasses and bikini, lie on a sun lounger in the back garden, a cocktail at hand complete with straw and umbrella and face the rains, winds, hailstones or snow; indeed whatever the Irish weather chooses to throw at me.

Thanks to you all for helping me to reach the end of the marathon, a bit battered and worn, but largely intact ...

[Hilary]

Buíochas le dia!

[Kyle]

Thomas wrote: "menstruation appears to be his finishing touch ..."

Indeed. In addition to an annoyance, menstruation is something of a relief for her for her - she is sees it as a sign than Boylan did not impregnate her...

[Kyle]

The discussion about fiction giving us resolution is interesting. I'm not opposed to having a tidy ending, but I tend not to like resolutions that don't feel true to life. I think I would have been very disappointed if Ulysses ended with a confrontation, confession, and formal reconciliation. Leaving it somewhat open ended also leaves us something to chew on, and a reason to re-read (which I think Joyce almost certainly intended for us to do).

As far as the modern/postmodern thing, I think most scholars would say Joyce is pretty thoroughly modern. I don't have pity definition of the term handy, but in rough terms it's usually associated with the time period between the turn of the 20th century and 1930's. After WWII, you start getting into postmodern. Those are rough markers though, and some art forms moved more quickly than others. I like to think of William Gaddis as the author who bridges modern and post-modern, but again, I'm not a literature scholar.

[Genni]

Everyman wrote: "Genni wrote: "But this is exactly what I am wondering about! I think we DO experience resolution. "

We do in many (though not all) aspects of life. But even as one situation resolves, others pop ..."

Yes, it is definitely circular. I guess what I was wondering is, if we do experience resolution, why do we still have a *need* for it in novels?

[Genni]

Patrice wrote: "Kathy wrote: "Genni wrote: "I'm curious about something. Is Joyce's realism any more "real" than other novels that came before? What I mean is, just because books typically resolve, does that make ..."

Lol!! It is indeed! I guess maybe it juwt boils down to personalities and moods....:-)

[Genni]

Kathy wrote: "Genni wrote: "But this is exactly what I am wondering about! I think we DO experience resolution. People get married, personal conflicts with others are worked out, problems that bother us for year..."

This makes sense. I don't read much fiction, except for the classics with this group, so I was curious!

[Genni]

Kyle wrote: "The discussion about fiction giving us resolution is interesting. I'm not opposed to having a tidy ending, but I tend not to like resolutions that don't feel true to life. I think I would have be..."

I agree. A tidy ending would not have fit this book at all!

[Kathy]

Resolution doesn't have to be tidy for us to feel it as resolution, as evidenced by this thread! So-called "literary" fiction rarely has anything resembling a tidy resolution. That's the purview of genre fiction: a mystery needs a solution to the crime at the end, a romance needs a pairing of lovers at the end, etc. Those types of novels are very comforting to their readers partly because the formula is, to some extent, known at the outset. Again, something we get from fiction and not from life!

[Kathy]

I think that's one of the surprising things about Ulysses for me. The book is so out there, such an exercise in experimentation all the way through, and yet Joyce still does what he's supposed to do at the end. He gives us a sense of hope and the future. It's curious--why not turn the idea of an ending inside out the way he turned form inside out through the rest of the novel?

[Kathy]

Kyle wrote: "As far as the modern/postmodern thing, I think most scholars would say Joyce is pretty thoroughly modern. "

Yes--sorry, in @171 when I referred to postmodern writers I actually didn't mean Joyce. I was thinking of writers I know today who seem to be tying themselves in knots trying to figure out how to represent "reality" as we actually experience it, which seems to me to be entirely beside the point. I suppose it's an interesting exercise, but imho it's not what "realistic" fiction is trying to do. I do think Joyce stands out, though, as a bit of an oddball against his Modernist counterparts!

[Kathy]

Patrice wrote: "Would you say that the resolution begins with Ithaca? That's where we start getting real answers and information we were wondering about throughout the book. I read that he wrote Ithaca and Penel..."

Great question, Patrice. I'm going to go back and see whether I can pinpoint what felt like resolution to me...

[Kyle]

Kathy wrote: "Resolution doesn't have to be tidy for us to feel it as resolution, as evidenced by this thread! So-called "literary" fiction rarely has anything resembling a tidy resolution. That's the purview of..."

Tidy was probably the wrong word to use. But do we get resolution in Ulysses? It would seem that Molly decides that Bloom is better than any of her other options as a husband, but Im not sure that she decides to stop looking elsewhere for sex. Nor does it seem that Poldy is ready to start taking intiative on the conjugal front. So the marriage is intact, but the problems still seem to linger. Perhaps one could say that there is resolution in that they have just tacitly agreed to ignore the issue entirely - Bloom does say to himself "let her" at one point.

[Kyle]

Kathy wrote: "Kyle wrote: "As far as the modern/postmodern thing, I think most scholars would say Joyce is pretty thoroughly modern. "

Yes--sorry, in @171 when I referred to postmodern writers I actually didn't..."

Hmm, either I misread you or I was responding to a different post that I can't find at the moment. Either way, I think we're more or less on the same page. Though there is some post modern stuff I enjoy, but thats a discussion for another forum...

[Suzann]

Kathy wrote: "I was thinking of writers I know today who seem to be tying themselves in knots trying to figure out how to represent "reality" as we actually experience it, which seems to me to be entirely beside the point. I suppose it's an interesting exercise, but imho it's not what "realistic" fiction is trying to do. I do think Joyce stands out, though, as a bit of an oddball against his Modernist counterparts! ..."

Post-modern to me is a self-conscious exploration of the role of language and consciousness in communicating experience. Every example I know resoundingly demonstrates a failure to capture, replicate, or portray events accurately. All efforts result in a new fiction, a fabrication or shadow of past events rather than the "reality". Although Joyce uses multitudes of narrators and obsessive details, common techniques of post-moderns, he is not self-consciously exploring the gulf between the real material world and the world he has created. Joyce seems pleased with his Dublin as a reasonable facsimile of the real place. Moderns believe in science and the accuracy of observation. Post-moderns, in my experience, believe that consciousness intervenes in the act of observation and shapes the results by filling in gaps, compensating for faulty memory and personal prejudice, and the result is fiction. Joyce's goal is only to create a fictional world. He is not exploring the post-modern question of how we know and how we communicate, but exploring the richness of language as he creates a fictional world. A simplistic stab at the question!