Classics and the Western Canon discussion
Ulysses
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18. Penelope and Ulysses as a whole
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Suzann
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Mar 30, 2015 08:56AM

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Incidentally, the main female character in Finnegans Wake is Anna Livia Plurabelle, the river Liffey personified.

Joyce wanted Ulysses to be, among other things, an "epic of the human body," and so far in the book I think we've seen everything a human body can do -- digest, defecate, urinate, fart, belch, vomit, ejaculate, give birth -- and menstruation appears to be his finishing touch.

Actually, I found her fairly sympathetic in a sad, vulnerable way."
Maybe her actions are unsympathetic and the hurt underlying the actions are sympathetic. Can we have it both ways? :-)
PS- I hope your eyes are doing much better.

line 176
"Our Lord being a carpenter at last he made me cry OF COURSE A WOMAN IS SO SENSITIVE ABOUT EVERYTHING"
Ha! That is a classic, a man's opinion. I can't see a woman, remembering something that made her cry, saying "women are so sensitive about everything". No way, no how. Women don't make generalizations about women in that way. That's looking at a woman or "women" from the outside. If written by a woman she would be remembering from her pov. She might think "I was too sensitive" not "women" are too sensitive. But even that is far-fetched, I think, because she would understand her own reaction. A man would not. Would a man, engaged in a fist fight, look back on it and say "Men are such hot heads about EVERYTHING."
Patrice, you may start to feel like I am picking apart everything you say, but seriously, I was justtalking to another woman the other day about females in the work place and we were saying this exact thing. We were making generalizations about how women tend to be more sensitive. It is not always true, of course, but I agree too, that it sounds like something men would also easily say. Good point also, about women tending to understand their own reactions.


"Your book as a whole has given me no end of trouble ...I shall probably never be quite sure whether I did enjoy it, because it meant too much grinding of nerves and of grey matter.""
Jung speaks my mind.

Good point. In fact, I think it would have been much less effective if Joyce had tried to resolve anything. Life just doesn't resolve in a single day. We are given the thoughts and experiences from that single day, but any resolution is up to us.

But there are very few women in the Odyssey, too, so isn't that reasonable? Doesn't every major woman in the Odyssey have a counterpart in Ulysses? Would you want Joyce to invent more females that had no Odyssean counterparts?

ULYSSES: The Next Day
lol."
Hilarious. :p"
Or perhaps Bloomsday Redux

Yes. I find her quite human. Maybe because I'm a man and so don't miss the feminine voice. But she's authentic.

That's very nice.


Learning this rubbed me the wrong way at first glance. I thought maybe this *is* what Joyce thought of women--they're contradictory, can't keep a straight thought--because I couldn't explain it in terms of Penelope. Why would he make Molly this way? Then I realized it may be the answer to a question I had when I finished the book: What is Molly's equivalent to Penelope's weaving and unweaving? Maybe it's all of her contradictory statements. She makes them, then unmakes them.

But there are very few women in the Odyssey, too, so isn't that reasonable? Doesn't every major woman in ..."
Joyce plays so loosely with the Odyssey that I don't see that as a compelling excuse. He is far more interested in creating a realistic picture of Dublin than he is in following the Odyssey point-for-point. Even so, where is Athena?
The trouble I have is that the women in Ulysses are more often than not props for the male characters, with the exception of Molly, who really does exert her own presence in the book -- but not until the very end, and almost as an epilogue.

..."
I like this idea!!


I don't think there is a satisfactory explanation for UP:up, but Suzette Henke says that "up" is Molly's favorite word. It appears about 130 times in her monologue.

I've pondered that question occasionally, and have no answer unless Dublin itself is Athena. It seems to be, in some sort of way, the driving force behind events which is Athena's role in much of the Odyssey.
I'm not wedded at all to this idea, but just toss it out to see whether, as they say, it sticks to the wall.

And yet it is men, not women, who are said to get it up.



There's nothing tidy about anything Joyce, but your information is wonderfully satisfactory IMO! Thanks!

Nice exchange, Genni and Patrice. There were some earlier novels that didn't resolve, where the characters walked off into the sunset with lots of questions about their future lives still a mystery, so Joyce wasn't the first in that respect, but his is more totally open ended than any other earlier work I can think of offhand.
In addition, the point about no guidance from God or apparent purpose is interesting. But daily life is like that, isn't it? I think purpose or divine guidance is only seen or appreciated in a longer term than one day. If we saw Bloom's and Molly's lives over a longer period we might find more purpose than appears in a single day. After all, I think if any of us just described our normal activities on a normal day anybody we told it to would be hard pressed to find the purpose or guidance of our lives.
This is one aspect in which the Odyssey and Ulysses are so totally different. Ten years versus one day. That's a pretty significant difference!

I'm afraid I've only read a few comments. Genni, your comments paralleled almost eerily exactly what I was thinking. I felt that Molly was an embittered woman, but had her reasons, just as Bloom was a deeply flawed character. She rang true to me.
I understand that her soliloquising could be seen as strongly infused by a man's understanding of women, nevertheless, there are many such women. Surely a male author must not be restricted to writing about men?
Authors cannot experience every personality, foible or philosophy espoused by their characters; they can only try to identify as well as possible. Joyce can't be a Molly, a Stephen or a Boylan, but he can still write about them or through them. Of course it will be subjective. It can't be otherwise.
As has already been said, she does love Bloom. I don't believe though that this excludes her from experiencing sexual attraction for someone that she doesn't believe is 'half the man'. That seems to be part of the draw to Boylan: he is not at all like Bloom.
When Molly is spiteful about her period, this may not be unconnected with the thought that she won't have another child. Also, in those days the whole process was a major hassle compared with today. They didn't have radiantly happy swimmers in TV advertisements: "Have a happy period!" Nor, as in a UK ad, would there have been blue liquid pouring unto a pad. These adverts are aimed at sales and at attempting to fool women into feeling "Oh, what a spiffingly wonderful day. These agonising pains, irritability and depression are exquisite. They remind me of the miracle of being a woman. I shall grab a 'Tampax Compak' and skip among the daisies whilst giving thanks to the Mother Goddess for making me a female."
In Molly's day she neither had the materials nor the reassurances that we have today. Which woman does not spring into a new life of celebration with each monthly visit?!
Finito! Benito? Not sure, but glad I have reached this point, however shambolically! Thanks again, Thomas, and everyone. I think that I need a holiday in the sun; six months to a year would do for starters ...

I am always interested in the ongoing struggle of postmodern writers to somehow capture "reality" in writing. While these experiments make for interesting reading as experiments, ultimately I don't think they satisfy what we actually look for in fiction. I've probably said this before, but I think fiction actually exists to give us resolution because we don't get it in real life! That seems, to me, to be one of its primary functions. It satisfies something that is missing in our experience of reality. I think that goes a long way toward explaining why, while many of us found Ulysses an interesting and stimulating and thought-provoking read, people made a lot of comments about not being emotionally engaged by it.

Can't. Breathe.

"
That is true! Purpose is often not realized all at once. The novel focuses on all the points around realization or epiphanies.

But this is exactly what I am wondering about! I think we DO experience resolution. People get married, personal conflicts with others are worked out, problems that bother us for years are settled, etc, etc. If we were in a constant state of suspension, that would be terribly uncomfortable. I don't know if I could stand it. It is kind of one of the reasons why I don't understand why people Are so disappointed after the feelings of first being in love fade. People are constantly trying to recreate those feelings. Why? Those feelings are not great, if you ask me. Can't eat, can't sleep, can barely concentrate on anything or get anything done...you see my point. sure, it's exciting, but if it stuck around too long with everyone, it would destroy society. :p and I'm way off point now. Lol.
Anyway, we do experience resolve in reality, don't we?
Btw, i am on of the ones who kept complaining about not being engaged emotionally. Lol

We do in many (though not all) aspects of life. But even as one situation resolves, others pop up that aren't resolved yet. And as those get resolved, others . . .

Congratulations, Hilary! There's something very appropriate about finishing Ulysses in the wee hours of the morning, when the book itself ends.
Molly knows Boylan isn't "half the man" Bloom is, as you rightly note, and at the end of the day she knows that Bloom's love transcends the physical. In this incredibly physical book the "payoff" is that the physical isn't what matters -- it is the spirit that transcends the physical.
--But it's no use, says he. Force, hatred, history, all that. That's not
life for men and women, insult and hatred. And everybody knows that it's the very opposite of that that is really life.
--What? says Alf.
--Love, says Bloom.
Enjoy your holiday in the sun!

And diving off high diving boards and doing a double pike into the water.
I remember those adds :-)

I don't think we experience the kind of resolution that comes from fiction. I agree that we have wonderful, satisfying moments of resolution, but they don't last long. There's never a moment--unless you count the moment of death for one of those lucky people who can say I know I'm about to die and I have no regrets, my work is done--at which our lives are complete the way the world of a novel is completed. One of the "rules" of writing fiction is that there has to be some kind of "redemption" at the end, some final sense of closure. But as Eman points out, as soon as we get closure on one thing in life, something else opens up! It's a continual juggling act, and we have to grab those moments of resolution and satisfaction in life when they happen and appreciate them.
In any case, I think that's one of the primary functions of traditional "realistic" novels, of which Ulysses is most decidedly not one! Although, interestingly, I think the ending *is* meant to give us some of that traditional sense of resolution and closure.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oL8Mh...

Thanks for the 'congratulations', Thomas. I love your summing up. It's so true that the spirit transcends the physical. Love is the ultimate theme. Of this I was totally unaware until Molly had said her part. Then it began to become clearer and not to mention your invaluable help. There was a subtle gold thread lacing its way through the whole narrative, largely unseen until the dénouement.
Thanks also Thomas for your holiday wishes. I shall lather myself with high factor sunscreen, wear a straw hat, sunglasses and bikini, lie on a sun lounger in the back garden, a cocktail at hand complete with straw and umbrella and face the rains, winds, hailstones or snow; indeed whatever the Irish weather chooses to throw at me.
Thanks to you all for helping me to reach the end of the marathon, a bit battered and worn, but largely intact ...

Indeed. In addition to an annoyance, menstruation is something of a relief for her for her - she is sees it as a sign than Boylan did not impregnate her...

As far as the modern/postmodern thing, I think most scholars would say Joyce is pretty thoroughly modern. I don't have pity definition of the term handy, but in rough terms it's usually associated with the time period between the turn of the 20th century and 1930's. After WWII, you start getting into postmodern. Those are rough markers though, and some art forms moved more quickly than others. I like to think of William Gaddis as the author who bridges modern and post-modern, but again, I'm not a literature scholar.

We do in many (though not all) aspects of life. But even as one situation resolves, others pop ..."
Yes, it is definitely circular. I guess what I was wondering is, if we do experience resolution, why do we still have a *need* for it in novels?

Lol!! It is indeed! I guess maybe it juwt boils down to personalities and moods....:-)

This makes sense. I don't read much fiction, except for the classics with this group, so I was curious!

I agree. A tidy ending would not have fit this book at all!



Yes--sorry, in @171 when I referred to postmodern writers I actually didn't mean Joyce. I was thinking of writers I know today who seem to be tying themselves in knots trying to figure out how to represent "reality" as we actually experience it, which seems to me to be entirely beside the point. I suppose it's an interesting exercise, but imho it's not what "realistic" fiction is trying to do. I do think Joyce stands out, though, as a bit of an oddball against his Modernist counterparts!

Great question, Patrice. I'm going to go back and see whether I can pinpoint what felt like resolution to me...

Tidy was probably the wrong word to use. But do we get resolution in Ulysses? It would seem that Molly decides that Bloom is better than any of her other options as a husband, but Im not sure that she decides to stop looking elsewhere for sex. Nor does it seem that Poldy is ready to start taking intiative on the conjugal front. So the marriage is intact, but the problems still seem to linger. Perhaps one could say that there is resolution in that they have just tacitly agreed to ignore the issue entirely - Bloom does say to himself "let her" at one point.

Yes--sorry, in @171 when I referred to postmodern writers I actually didn't..."
Hmm, either I misread you or I was responding to a different post that I can't find at the moment. Either way, I think we're more or less on the same page. Though there is some post modern stuff I enjoy, but thats a discussion for another forum...

Post-modern to me is a self-conscious exploration of the role of language and consciousness in communicating experience. Every example I know resoundingly demonstrates a failure to capture, replicate, or portray events accurately. All efforts result in a new fiction, a fabrication or shadow of past events rather than the "reality". Although Joyce uses multitudes of narrators and obsessive details, common techniques of post-moderns, he is not self-consciously exploring the gulf between the real material world and the world he has created. Joyce seems pleased with his Dublin as a reasonable facsimile of the real place. Moderns believe in science and the accuracy of observation. Post-moderns, in my experience, believe that consciousness intervenes in the act of observation and shapes the results by filling in gaps, compensating for faulty memory and personal prejudice, and the result is fiction. Joyce's goal is only to create a fictional world. He is not exploring the post-modern question of how we know and how we communicate, but exploring the richness of language as he creates a fictional world. A simplistic stab at the question!
Books mentioned in this topic
Joysprick: An Introduction to the Language of James Joyce (other topics)The Aesthetics of Chaosmos: The Middle Ages of James Joyce (other topics)
The Gift of Therapy: An Open Letter to a New Generation of Therapists and Their Patients (other topics)
Authors mentioned in this topic
Bebe Moore Campbell (other topics)Irvin D. Yalom (other topics)