18. Penelope and Ulysses as a whole

[Genni]

Linda wrote: "Genni wrote: "I suppose I stand alone, which is ok.

I think when you have been with someone for a long time, it is sometimes easy to slip into this way of thinking. However, the reason I think I f..."

Thanks, Linda. I am still working through how I feel about this book. This final discussion is definitely helpful.

[Genni]

Patrice wrote: "Thanks Linda but I'm hoping that wiser heads (Thomas?) can help my muddled thoughts. So much of Ulysses seems to be a stream of ideas without much form. I think it's in people's natures to want t..."

so true, Patrice.

[Suzann]

Genni wrote: "intimate acts short of penetration between the Blooms which one critic cataloged and I..."

From the Structure and Language of "Pentelope" by James Van Dyck Card. "Bloom wanted to milk her into the tea...Sexual activities include fellatio(the little statue), cunnilingus (Bloom does it all wrong), pedomasturbation("that was the night..."), and sodomy ("it went in the wrong place")."

[Nicola]

Thomas wrote: "Nicola wrote: "Not necessarily more flattering but he portrays them as individuals. The women all seemed to have the same thoughts and be of a similar type,"

To me, the glaring flaw of Ulysses is ..."

Petty, man focused whether wanting one or complaining about them, unpleasant; they all seemed cut from the same cloth to me. They had their differences but those seemed more of situation rather than basic personality type.

[Lily]

What fun! The next season's episodes you all are writing! ;-)

[Linda]

Lily wrote: "What fun! The next season's episodes you all are writing! ;-)"

ULYSSES: The Next Day

lol.

[Genni]

Linda wrote: "Lily wrote: "What fun! The next season's episodes you all are writing! ;-)"

ULYSSES: The Next Day

lol."

Hilarious. :p

[Nicola]

Genni wrote: "Nicola wrote: "Genni wrote: I am wondering, do you think Joyce's portrayal of men is any more flattering?"

Not necessarily more flattering but he portrays them as individuals. The women all seeme..."

It's not that I don't think they aren't believeble Genni, I think these personalities do exist. It's just, like I've said, that these are the same for all the women he portrays. And for a writer to put down 3/4 women and have them all seem the same in their basic core to me points to two most likely reasons:

1. He didn't know anything about women and just thought that they were all rather catty and back bitting and their lives revolved around men
2. He didn't like women and so viewed them all as being this way

Either way it doesn't make for believable characters imo because when you only have 3/4 women in a book you'd want them to be different from each other and when they aren't it makes them all ring false to me.

[Genni]

Nicola wrote: "Either way it doesn't make for believable characters imo because when you only have 3/4 women in a book you'd want them to be different from each other and when they aren't it makes them all ring false to me.."

I understand your point. I guess I just disagree. :-) As I said, most of the females he portrays are not main characters, so there was no need or opportunity to make Circe women more complex. Molly is the only one we delve into and I find her believable (mostly).

I hope you do not see me as being disagreeable or argumentative. Shall we agree to disagree? :-)

[Zippy]

Susan wrote: "Yes, but WILL Molly make breakfast? Her mind is pretty active at 2am and she has fluttered around most every topic lighting one way and then the other. Can you really visualize her bringing the tr..."

Oh, yes. Molly will make breakfast. She'll wake up and make a bunch of noise in the bedroom, then she'll stomp down the stairs, step on the cat's tail, not wash her hands, clatter in the kitchen, drop the pan on the floor, stomp up the stairs and set down the tray with a crash. "Here's yer bleedin' breakfast." She's a harridan, and that's what harridans do.

[Zippy]

Lily wrote: "From Terence of ancient classics that may be relevant to our reading of Ulysses, with a perspective from Erich Fromm:

"When teaching students about empathy, Erich Fromm often cited Terence's state..."

Ouch, Lily! :-)

[Nicola]

Genni wrote:
I hope you do not see me as being disagreeable or argumentative. Shall we agree to disagree? :-) "

Not at all! And, yes, of course :-)

[Genni]

Great. :-)

[Thomas]

Genni wrote: "And Whether she is frustrated with Bloom or frustrated sexually (it is probably both), she is definitely frustrated. A frustrated woman is usually not pretty. Lol .."

True, and neither is a frustrated man. The emotional counterpart to Molly is Stephen. They're both unattractive, depressed, self-destructive characters, for different reasons and in different ways, but the suggestion in the last two chapters of the book is that they both can find some kind of resolution or fulfillment in Bloom.

The religious symbolism is tempting as well. Molly's birthday is Sept. 8, traditionally the date on which the Blessed Virgin Mary was born. Bloom is the archetypal father who saves Stephen the son (St. Stephen was also the first Christian martyr) after he is "crucified" in Circe.

The symbolism is debatable, as symbolism always is, but I think these three characters come together to form a unity somehow... or perhaps since they never really come together, a solar system. (I read somewhere a suggestion that Stephen represents the stars, Molly the Earth, and Bloom the Sun. I think this comes from the astronomical allusions in Ithaca.)

[Genni]

Thomas wrote: "The religious symbolism is tempting as well. Molly's birthday is Sept. 8, traditionally the date on which the Blessed Virgin Mary was born. Bloom is the archetypal father who saves Stephen the son (St. Stephen was also the first Christian martyr) after he is "crucified" in Circe.

The symbolism is debatable, as symbolism always is, but I think these three characters come together to form a unity somehow... or perhaps since they never really come together, a solar system. (I read somewhere a suggestion that Stephen represents the stars, Molly the Earth, and Bloom the Sun. I think this comes from the astronomical allusions in Ithaca.)
"

Actually, Patrice brouht this up earlier and I meant to respond and never did. I guess I should qualify exactly how I am thinking of a symbol in this case. If a symbol is a representation of an idea or quality, then a Christ-symbol, imho, would portray a higher degree of excellence than Bloom does. Qualities such as humility (not passiveness, as I see in Bloom) or some kind of true "saving" power would be in order, I think. So the juxtaposition of Molly and Mary's birthday, or the "salvation" of Stephen seems too shallow to hold any real meaning as a symbol. If Bloom had, say, "saved" Stephen from his emotional distress or alcoholism, then maybe the symbolism would hold more water for me. In saying this, I am not trying to say that symbols must be literal, only that, in this case, it does not seem to hold much significance. Again, though, I did not follow this idea closely when it was brought up towards the beginning of the book. I was still lost at that point, lol, so I am sure I am missing much.

If I had to choose between the two, I suppose I would choose the solar system team. :-) Molly, Bloom, and Stephen manage to complete orbits, literal days as do the earth and planets, without ever really going anywhere. Specifically, without ever making headway in the emotional trauma of their lives. Until the end, at least, where it is hinted that that lies in store for them.

[Lily]

Zippy wrote: "Lily wrote: "....When teaching students about empathy, Erich Fromm often cited Te..."

Ouch, Lily! :-)"

LOL, Zippy. Terence and Fromm ask us to reach. You remind me of a personal anecdote: One time when I was going through a rough period, I was using positive affirmations - I am x, you are x, she is x where substitute some good characteristic for X, and each person, i,u,she, was intended to be an aspect of the self. It was useful, but somewhere along the way, luckily perhaps as things got better, I realized one could just as readily substitute a questionable human attribute for that x and now explore how that related to one's own experience of living. (It became fun and insightful to take some attribute that one was almost sure one did not have and, looking closely, be able to see its presence in some form or another, from humility to snoring and for all sorts of behaviors within and beyond that range.)

[Kathy]

Well, I'm not quite finished with this chapter, but I would have to agree with Genni. I have no real problem with Molly. I don't actually find her unlikeable at all. She's somewhat amusing and very much her own woman. I don't see that Joyce should be under any obligation to write a "good" woman or a "generous" woman. She's a character serving a function in a narrative. In her TED talk, Chimamanda Adichie talks about her frustration with a reader who said, in response to Adichie's novel, that it was terrible how badly Nigerian men treat their wives. Adichie pointed out that the abusive husband was a fictional character, not an archetype. The same thing applies here. I don't see that we can judge Joyce's opinion of or understanding of women based on Molly and Gertie (whom I don't find to be that similar) nor on the fact that there aren't more women in the novel. As Genni pointed out above, there are very few women in The Odyssey. Nora may have felt he didn't understand women, but she was working with a lot more information than we have!

[Tk]

I found Molly somewhat unbelievable, although I felt we needed to hear from her character and I'm glad Joyce gave her a voice, in the end. Had I not known who wrote it or where it was from, I would have known it was written by a man. It did give me a sense of completion, however, and I did feel that Bloom "won" in the end as the book ended with her thinking of him with strong memories and feelings.

I like that despite the fact they've reached points in life that are less than ideal, and certainly less romantic than Molly's girly memories from Gibraltar, they are at least more than mere survivors, even if it's only a little bit more. I read once about how many marriages end in divorce after the death of a child, and I suppose Bloom and Molly are doing the best they can to be together and have some small pleasures in their altered lives.

The Yom Kippur thing made me laugh, too. It reminded me of a conversation I had with my husband (pre-Obama) that when a Hollywood movie is set in the future, they let you know it's the future because the president is black or a woman. Yes, Joyce must mention Yom Kippur so we know Bloom is Jewish.

[Thomas]

Genni wrote: "If a symbol is a representation of an idea or quality, then a Christ-symbol, imho, would portray a higher degree of excellence than Bloom does. Qualities such as humility (not passiveness, as I see in Bloom) or some kind of true "saving" power would be in order, I think."

I think Joyce uses symbols for their resonance value more than anything else. He doesn't use scriptural symbolism consistently -- sometimes he dresses Bloom up as Christ, others times Stephen appears that way. It seems to be more for effect than meaning.

Stephen, for example, is abandoned by his friends, betrayed by Lynch (who Stephen specifically calls Judas), "martyred" by governmental authorities, and left with a wounded hand but no broken bones, which is the way Christ is left on the cross. On the other hand, Bloom is the one who is crucified in Barney Kiernan's. "Some people can see the mote in others' eyes, but they can't see the beam in their own," Bloom says. "That's the new Messiah for Ireland!" says the Citizen. And so on... At other times Bloom is likened to Elijah, or even St. Paul (Bloom's middle name is Paula, which is too strange to be incidental); the citizen mocks him as "a new apostle to the gentiles."

So I don't think Joyce is making meaningful equations, or even analogies (which as Kyle noted earlier, only work until they don't). He uses Scripture in the same way that he uses other cultural references, to sound a bell in the mind. I like the way Umberto Eco puts it:

[Joyce] takes old ideas, sanctioned by a cultural tradition, and derives new linguistic connections and narrative structures from them. The adaptation of the Trinitarian schema is a typical example of an ancient schema, a theology that Joyce does not accept, freely adapted in order to dominate a material that escapes him.

(From The Aesthetics of Chaosmos: The Middle Ages of James Joyce

[Thomas]

Patrice wrote: "One give away that this was written by a man was when she says that she wishes she was a man so that she could have a woman.
Hard not to laugh as i write this. Quite an assumption! That everyone ..."

Bloom wants to be a woman too... even more, he wants to be a mother. (And he gives birth to eight sons!) Okay, that's not in a very "believable" context, but Bloom's "feminine" qualities (which are probably better called maternal qualities) are his best feature, I think. Aside from his heritage it's what he suffers for most at the hands of other men (and Molly, now that I think about it.).

[Genni]

Thomas wrote: "Genni wrote: "If a symbol is a representation of an idea or quality, then a Christ-symbol, imho, would portray a higher degree of excellence than Bloom does. Qualities such as humility (not passive..."

I suppose you are right. Every artist will employ symbolism in different ways, which you clearly point out Joyce is doing. But also, if I understand what you are saying, he does it in the most superficial way, which as you say, does not equate to meaning.

[Genni]

Patrice wrote: "Breathtakingly sad article:

www.newyorker.com/magazine/2003/12/08..."

Thank for sharing this, Patrice. So sad. The cost of Finnegan's Wake was Lucia. Wow. :-(

Up to this point, I have not read any outside material on Joyce or Ulysses, wanting to read it cold turkey. I also thought that after I finished it, I would be done with it for a long time. Lol but I found myself at the bookstore yesterday picking up references and I even picked up a book of his poetry. This article has sparked my interest even more.

[Tk]

Patrice wrote: "Breathtakingly sad article:

www.newyorker.com/magazine/2003/12/08..."

That is sad on so many levels.

[Theresa]

Not quite finished yet so I didn't read Thomas' summary on this episode. I did quickly read/skim all the comments and it is as I suspected - no spoilers here, no climatic "answer to it all". I'll come back next week when I'm finished and have had a chance to let it all settle (when you will all be into something else and possibly not wanting to discuss Ulysses again any time so soon). I said in an earlier thread that it was a wonderful chameleon kind of work of art, the kind that has whatever total meaning the reader wants to give it. By focusing on the parts that resonate most deeply with the reader, the reader can make a unique meaning from the novel. The novel is also an excellent display of craftsmanship (wordsmanship?) which can be enjoyed even without worrying too much about getting meaning from it. Hopefully if I can get back to read it over a couple of times more meaning will emerge for me. I feel I have relied a little too much on the audio (but I was desperate and ready to give up and the audio got me through in a few places).

[Lily]

Patrice wrote: "...First because in the Odyssey, Odysseus finds Penelope ready to commit to someone else...."

? I thought she was still unraveling the day's weaving at night? And that she reminded her husband of the unmovable bed post when he returned. Now, I know the suitors were sorely trying to tempt her....

[Theresa]

But she was willing to go for that game of stringing the Bow.

[Suzann]

Theresa wrote: "But she was willing to go for that game of stringing the Bow."

I thought Penelope recognized Odysseus right off, but didn't reveal her knowledge. She knew he would be the only one who could string the bow.

[Suzann]

Apparently there are many versions of Odysseus' return. I wondered why Odysseus slayed the suitors and one explanation is that Telemacus left the weapon storage open and the suitors armed themselves, which required the final act of violence.

[Thomas]

Patrice wrote: "According to Thomas' summary she was ready to commit to one of the suitors. "

She says that she is, in fact she says it directly to Odysseus when he is disguised as the beggar. Odysseus (as the beggar) tells her to go ahead with the contest, because Odysseus will return before any of them manage to string the bow.

I see it as another delay tactic because it seems very unlikely that any of the suitors will be able to accomplish the task, but assuming that Penelope sees through Odysseus' disguise, is she also testing him?

Is Molly testing Bloom in a similar way?

[Nicola]

Patrice wrote: The "yes" theme too. What is it that a man wants more than anything? A woman who says "yes". To everything! A sort of sexy Stepford Wife. Definitely a male pov. "

I hadn't thought of it like that Patrice :-) Very amusing.

[Suzann]

Patrice wrote: "The "yes" theme...."

The word yes started to look a little like sex spelled backwards and then the y started to look pretty sexy all by itself! Then maybe it's y or Y plural. I don't think Joyce is beyond this kind of subtle messaging, but on the other hand it could just be puzzle-hunting gone mad! I'm even more convinced that no breakfast will arrive on a tray!

[Thomas]

Patrice wrote: "The business about breakfast in bed...my first thought was that this is not about love but power and dominance. Bringing your mate breakfast in bed could be an act of love, not submission."

Here I think it's both, and that's what is so clever about this breakfast request. Bloom has has been playing the submissive all along, but I don't know that he really is. He gives Molly the freedom to go with Boylan and come back to him, as if he knows that is how it going to work out. Just like Odysseus knows that no one will be able to string his bow.

[Thomas]

Nicola wrote: "Patrice wrote: The "yes" theme too. What is it that a man wants more than anything? A woman who says "yes". To everything! A sort of sexy Stepford Wife. Definitely a male pov. ""

I would argue that this is not an exclusively male pov. The phrase "Yes, dear" comes to mind. ;-)

[Suzann]

Could the head to foot position be chromosomes? Being scientifically challenged my knowledge of the genetics and centromere is limited, but "Centromeres were first defined as genetic loci that direct the behavior of chromosomes". On two prone human bodies could those central erogenous zones be said to "direct the behavior"? Would Joyce have known about chromosomes?

[Genni]

Susan wrote: "Patrice wrote: "The "yes" theme...."

The word yes started to look a little like sex spelled backwards and then the y started to look pretty sexy all by itself! Then maybe it's y or Y plural. I do..."

Lol!!

[Thomas]

For what it's worth, on the yes/sex coupling... from the Sirens episode:

Mr Bloom reached Essex bridge. Yes, Mr Bloom crossed bridge of Yessex. To Martha I must write. Buy paper. Daly's. Girl there civil. Bloom. Old Bloom. Blue bloom is on the rye.

[Linda]

Thomas wrote: "I would argue that this is not an exclusively male pov. The phrase "Yes, dear" comes to mind. ;-) "

lol.

[Suzann]

Patrice wrote: " Chromosomes were discovered in the l880's!!! ..."

I agree that Joyce could have known about the latest genetic theory, which heated up around 1900. Again my scientific ignorance will likely embarrass me, but that never stops me! I think a chromosome connected at the centromere gets pulled apart by foreign bodies attaching at the centromere and pulling so identical genetic material is attached to other material in similar states of division. The purpose of the exchange of material is diversity and strength of the species. Bloom has just experienced the cosmic with Stephen and now (way out on a limb) I'll say he's experiencing the metaphoric cellular level. At the risk of receiving some incoming rotten tomatoes I'll suggest that morality does not operate in nature --micro or macro. We have come to know Bloom, Molly, and Stephen as part of a mysterious dynamic universe, the labyrinth in which we too are stuck. (OK, I feel like Stephen not believing my argument by the end!)

[Linda]

Susan wrote: " I think a chromosome connected at the centromere gets pulled apart by foreign bodies attaching at the centromere and pulling so identical genetic material is attached to other material in similar states of division. The purpose of the exchange of material is diversity and strength of the species."

Although I'm in science, I don't study cell division so I'm trying to remember the specifics of this. So, that sounds correct, but something is standing out for me here if the comparison is being made to Molly and Bloom's sleeping positions: In meiosis, the homologous pair of chromosomes need to line up next to each other so that the short and long arms are in the same orientation. This is so recombination of the arms can take place (and thus introduce more genetic variation). So if Molly and Bloom's sleeping orientation is being compared to chromosomes and they are sleeping head-to-foot, then there is not going to be an exchange of genetic material. The chromatids (or long and short arms) are not going to be lined up properly. And since they apparently do not want to have another child for fear of what happened to Rudy, I like this analogy.

[Suzann]

Linda wrote: "In meiosis, the homologous pair of chromosomes need to line up next to each other so that the short and long arms are in the same orientation. ..."

Yep, when I saw the picture of chromosomes with short w/short and long w/long arms oriented together I thought the analogy had met its demise, but I appreciate the resuscitation your explanation offers!

[Everyman]

Linda wrote: "Just here to say that it's taking me a long time to read this episode."

It took me a long time, too. Not sure why, but I would read a few pages and then have a need to move to another book. I didn't find the endless unpunctuated style that hard to read, but it just didn't appeal to me.

I'm interested that several of the women here think that Joyce is very bad at writing from a woman's perspective. This is particularly interesting because this chapter is so famous, and why would it be if it were seriously unrealistic?

I liked the circularity of the ending -- starts with Bloom giving Molly breakfast in bed, ends with his asking her to make him breakfast in bed. Maybe it shows a simple mind on my part, but I liked the way he tied these things together and reversed the relationship.

[Everyman]

Thomas wrote: "This is supposedly the most "obscene" episode in Ulysses, but it seems to me like the obscenity in Nausicaa -- there is nothing prurient in it. It's simply sad. "

Precisely. Anybody who thinks this is obscene should go read D.H. Lawrence. Here it's all talk and no doing. There,...

[Everyman]

Genni wrote: " Anyway, off or not, his decision to end with an unsympathetic character is interesting. "

Actually, I found her fairly sympathetic in a sad, vulnerable way.

[Tk]

Everyman wrote: "This is particularly interesting because this chapter is so famous, and why would it be if it were seriously unrealistic? "

Perhaps the style? And were the primary early readers and reviewers of the novel men or women, I wonder?

[Tk]

Patrice wrote: "Maybe because it's sexy? Didn't that alone cause a furor?"

Yes, I believe Molly's soliloquy was a major focus of the prosecutor at the obscenity trial.

[Kathy]

Everyman wrote: "Actually, I found her fairly sympathetic in a sad, vulnerable way."

Me too, Eman. I ended the book feeling sorry for her.
I'll just add that while I'm in the minority camp among the women readers here (at least, I think I am) in saying I found Molly believable as a female character, I did think the bit about her period didn't ring true. She was commenting on it as if it were something novel or new to her, a real nuisance. But she's in her late 30s? She's been doing this a long, long time. Unless she's experiencing some unusual changes or health issues, it would be too ho-hum to comment on, except that Joyce himself finds it titillating or daring to write about.

[Kathy]

I love the whole chromosome conversation! Joyce really does dwell on the sleeping arrangement here, so obviously something is going on. A simpler question would be to ask why Bloom is upside down at the end of the novel. And asleep.

[Suzann]

Kathy wrote: "I love the whole chromosome conversation! Joyce really does dwell on the sleeping arrangement here, so obviously something is going on. A simpler question would be to ask why Bloom is upside down a..."

My theory is that Molly's toes would come to about Bloom's chest and his feet would be above her head. I predict breakfast will start with the toes and continue as it has many times. They don't do missionary.

[Linda]

Everyman wrote: "I'm interested that several of the women here think that Joyce is very bad at writing from a woman's perspective."

I had not voiced my opinion on this point before, but I did not find Molly's perspective unrealistic at all. Her thoughts felt like real thoughts to me. Frustration at Bloom, but also thinking of the "good" things he does (wipe his feet), thinking back on her happier days, pondering her relations with Boyle, etc. And everything is mish-mashed together. There doesn't necessarily have to be a clear thought process that leads from one thought to the next - jumping from one thought to something apparently unrelated is not unrealistic to me.

[Linda]

Patrice wrote: ""Our Lord being a carpenter at last he made me cry OF COURSE A WOMAN IS SO SENSITIVE ABOUT EVERYTHING"

Ha! That is a classic, a man's opinion. I can't see a woman, remembering something that made her cry, saying "women are so sensitive about everything"."

Although if she is at the beginning of her period, she could be feeling pretty emotional at that moment. From experience, it's much easier to make generalizations (even if they are not true) while hormones are having their way with your emotions.