A Song of Ice & Fire Fans discussion
The truth about Shae
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m.ikki
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Mar 23, 2015 02:27PM
It's not really clear to me if Shae was a cheater and liar from the beginning or if she was tricked and threatened to lie about Tyrion druing his trial. At first I thought Shae had been tricked and I hated Tyrion after he killed her, but then I saw the scene on the show and got a totally different view on it. Can someone explain?
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I don't know either but I think the show embellishes things a bit so the audience gets a bit more of an answer than what the book readers do
Shae is clearly portraied as a liar in the books, respectively she just pretends to love Tyrion (because it's her job as a prostitude). The show turned her character 180 degrees and depicts a real relationship between them, based on mutual love from both sides (which I personally like way more, book-Shae is just...a terrible person). That lays much more depth to the killing scene in Tywins chamber, because Shae just slept with his father and it's no big deal for her, while Tyrion suffers a lot. In the show, it is stated clearly that she loves Tyrion (f.e. when Varys tells her Tyrion isn't safe as long as she is with him and suggests she shall leave Kings Landing and she refuses). Their relationship comes under strain when Tyrion is forcibly married to Sansa, inciting Shae's jealousy despite Sansa and Tyrion never consummate their marriage.Fearing for her safety, Tyrion ends their relationship and sends her away, insulting her in the process. However, she is intercepted before leaving the capital and gives vengeful (but false) testimony against Tyrion, whom she considers has betrayed her to remain with Sansa. After, she has an affair with Tywin (I personally think he hired her just because he takes pleasure from hurting his son and for her, it's another tool of vengeance). This betrayal proves to be too much for Tyrion. So Shae lied out of rage, jealousy and verge of vengeance, not because she doesn't care about Tyrion.
In the book Shae is more concerned about her money and dresses which Tyrion outright ignores because he wants to feel she loves him. Even when he was on his deathbed she was more worried about what would happen to her things if he died. There are many instances I want to shake Tyrion and tell him to open his eyes but that is his tragic flaw. I don't like how the show changed her into someone who cared for him. In the books she was a selfish, self centered brat and the show should have kept her that way. Tyrions true love will always be Tysha and I see Shae as a rebound of sorts. I don't think that it is a coincidence that Tyrion fell in love with a whore considering that he was told Tysha was secretly one. I personally feel that Tyrion wanted to believe that a whore (Shae) could love him and therefore cling to the hope that what he had with Tysha wasn't all fake.
Kirstin wrote: "In the book Shae is more concerned about her money and dresses which Tyrion outright ignores because he wants to feel she loves him. Even when he was on his deathbed she was more worried about what..."I completely agree! She didn't care about Tyrion, just his money.
I think Robina sums both 'Shae's up pretty well. I also prefer the TV Shae, there are more layers to her than the greedy book Shae.In the book I also wondered if Shae had been Tywin's spy reporting Tyrion's movements back to Tywin....I thought this because she shows way too much interest in what he is doing and the decisions he is making; especially as she is the Westeros version of the 'material girl.'
@Kirstin...I also wanted to knock some sense into Tyrion...how could he not see what Shae was? For an intelligent man, in some area's he's pretty dumb!
I think Shae was changed that way, because she is a condensed version of herself and Tysha. Just like Locke is a condensed version of Vargo Hoat and the Bloody Mummers.
@Rebecca. Exactly! Tyrion is my favorite character and is brilliant except when it came to Shae. @Michal I agree that is most likely the case I just wish it wasn't. I think if they put Tysha in it would have enhanced the story of the show more. I also think she might be the Sailor's Wife.
I actually prefer the book version. I do like the show version, and I do agree that she has more layers but there are some inconsistencies with her character. In the book Tyrion was trying to prove that a whore (in extension Tysha) could love him. When Shae betrays him it answers that question but then Tyrion finds out something more, Tysha wasn't a whore after all. He can still dream that Tysha and his love was real. The show took parts of Tysha and put them into Shae. Having Shae love Tyrion was great for the show's purposes, it creates drama and a real love interest for Tyrion. However, when she betrays him in the end, it doesn't sit well. I get the whole vengeance for the fight they had, but giving testimony so Tyrion dies then sleeping with his father is a bit uncalled for. When Tyrion confronts Shae she immediately goes for the knife, she doesn't try to explain, she doesn't say she is sorry, there is no communication between them. Which, in contrast to Jon/Ygritte's love is very different. There you have two people on different sides who won't kill each other because their love won't allow it. Even if they threaten and attempt to. If Shae's love for Tyrion was real she wouldn't have gone for the knife. Whereas Tyrion has a good reason for killing her, she betrayed him to his death and slept with his father. The book Shae on the other hand is greedy, manipulative, and uncaring. It makes sense when she testifies against him and sleeps with his father. She is a whore after all and bedding the king's hand is security and wealth (the same she had with Tyrion). What's more interesting is that Tywin would call for her. What does that reveal about his character? We know that he had his father's "whore" dragged through the streets of Lannisport and threatens to kill Tyrion's whores. I get the impression from the show that Shae changed when she met Tyrion. She didn't want to be a whore any longer, so when she sleeps with Tywin it's not true to her character anymore. I like both versions. I'm currently rereading ACOK and I'm noticing how Tyrion changes in the subsequent books and his experience with Shae greatly develops his character.
@Thomas, exactly my thoughts as well. Well put.
wow, I never saw it that way. Amazing
The showrunners have done an absolute awesome job with adapting the series. I think one of their biggest challenges is portraying characters. Some characters in the show are better than they are in the books(IMO Oberyn and Catelyn). Others not so well. A lot of my friends who just watch the show don't like Jon (my fav character) because he comes off so mopey in the show. Glad these kinda discussion groups exist so we can all come together and share thoughts and ideas about a series we love!
Robina_hood your name is simply awesome by the way.
While I enjoyed Shae in the show I am with Thomas. Also Martin in an interview hinted that he is not done revealing things about Shae and Tywin so I suspect she was a spy all along but we'll see. Robina_hood is a great name, agreed.
I never considered it before but it makes sense that she could have been a spy.
I thought she may have been Tywin's spy because he had forbidden Tyrion to take 'a whore to Kings Landing'...and because Tywin had expressly forbidden it, then Tyrion would do it. A little bit of reverse psychology from Tywin.I thought Dan and Dave did good in making Shae a believable character rather than the one dimensional book version of Shae.
GRRM said he that he wasn't finished revealing everything that happened there, and to also consider Varys. Leads me to believe that Shae wasn't a spy. I read a post on the web that proposed that Varys had her planted there to provoke Tyrion into killing Tywin. It's interesting, not sure how I feel about it. But I think it's highly unlikely that Tywin Lannister would use a whore as a spy. There are many 1D characters in the book (bc there are so many characters) but that doesn't make them less believable. Bronn is pretty 1D, show did a good job enhancing that relationship.
I cant really see how Vary's would have known that Tyrion would eventually kill his father?....I am not criticizing the books as I enjoy nearly all the characters except perhaps for Ramsay Bolton-What he does to Theon is very hard to read...But a character doesn't have to be nice for me to be interested in reading them. Tywin, Littlefinger, Varys etc...all ruthless men but make gripping reading even if I don't like what they do....JMHO
Varys is one of my favorite characters. He is really good at reading people. Considering that he killed Kevan not long after, I wouldn't be at all surprised if he planned for Shae to be there to goad an already angry Tyrion into killing Tywin. I also like how Varys appreciates Tyrions intellect and instead of feeling he has to get him out of the way, being another Lannister, he converts him to his/danaerys side.
Kirstin wrote: "Varys is one of my favorite characters. He is really good at reading people. Considering that he killed Kevan not long after, I wouldn't be at all surprised if he planned for Shae to be there to go..."I also find Varys very interesting, although I can't say I like him. Concerning the killing of Tywin I mostly disagree. Of course Varys was very willing to give directions and let the dwarf do his dirty work and probably chose the time for the escape. But Jaime had the idea to free Tyrion and thought that it was a good time to inform him of the truth of what had happened with his first wife. Tyrion would not have risked going to his father's chambers otherwise. It was mainly Jaime's bad timing, poor people skills and need for redemption that armed that crossbow. Nice job redeeming yourself bozo.
PS I hate you Jamie, I really do...
PS2 Although I hated your dad more, so good job.
PS3 But that doesn't change anything, I still hate you, I really do...
As I read about Tyrion and Shae´s relationship, I always believed she actually loved him. I have a tendency to be gullable when I read; I didn't even suspect Daenarys's eggs would hatch until one grew warm. Now as I read through the comments, I recalled how materialistic Shae was, as well as the interest she took in Tyrion's business.
But the thing is, Shae was found by Bronn and taken from a knight. Also, it is made clear how much Tywin hates whores. ALso, I remember reading (not sure if it was in the books or not) something about Tywin having had his own whores, or myabe it was his father? I'm not sure.
Also, as Tyrion is escaping underneath the Tower of the Hand, he recalls how Shae must have come from there to get to him, or something like that. Sorry, my memory isn't that sharp.
I thought they were the cutest couple, and I would always get so annoyed with Tyrion every time he doubted Shae, but now afterwards, I feel pretty stupid for not catching on earlier.
Personally; I did not like Tyrion and Shae's relationship whatsoever on the show. But then agian, I don't actually follow the show.
Thank you for all the answers!
P.S. If you hate Jamie, you havn't read far enough! ;)
It was indeed Tywin's father, Tytos, who took a whore for mistress and showered her with his late wife's gold and riches; she even took to ordering Lannister men around at court. Immediately after his father's death, Tywin stripped the wench naked and condemned her to a walk of shame of sorts for all his bannermen to see.That made me think maybe Tywin really wasn't against whoring in and of itself, but more averse to falling in love with prostitutes, like Tyrion did with Shae. The same applies to commoners in general, I suppose, considering the Tysha affair... Any lowborn woman who tries to elevate her status through the Lannister family, in fact. Tywin would've probably been more tolerating of his son's whoring if only Tyrion was more discreet about it (like Tywin himself no doubt was, should we suppose Shae wasn't his first bedwarmer).
"Nice job redeeming yourself bozo.PS I hate you Jamie, I really do...
PS2 Although I hated your dad more, so good job.
PS3 But that doesn't change anything, I still hate you, I really do..."
@Ad. costas--LOL those comments really had me laughing. Tell us how you really feel LOL. And you make a good point. It was Jaime who inflamed Tyrion with the truth about Tysha...I don't think Varys had any idea that Tyrion would go and kill his father, but am sure he was relieved that Tyrion saved him the job of doing it.
@ Kirstin---I enjoy reading about Varys though I do not like the character...and in the books he is not on Danaerys side. He is on fAegon's side and it is him he wants placed on the Iron Throne, but Varys is also not one to place all his money on one bet, so I am sure that Danaerys is his plan B.
@ Ramza--As for Tywin being against falling in love with whores....According to Jaime Tysha wasn't a whore, and yet Tywin treated her like one. He is the ultimate hypocrite in lecturing Tyrion about having whores in Kings Landing especially as he was Hand of the King and yet where was Shae found? In Tywins bed! And what was Tywin, Hand of the King! hmmmm
I don't think Jaime revealing the truth about Tysha was the deciding factor in Tyrion confronting Tywin. Certainly added to it but his main purpose is to confront him about letting him die, his own son. This is just speculation, but did Tywin even bed Shae or even know she was in his chambers? It's implied but Shae never says she has slept with him. Tyrion also doesn't bring up Shae to Tywin (only happens in the show). Varys needs Tywin out of the way to put Aegon on the throne. When Tyrion is looking for a weapon, all the weapons are on a wall out of reach, except the crossbow. Which has a chest placed directly beneath it. Personally I like theories, even those that seem a bit farfetched. Tywin is obsessed with the reputation of his family. He would never allow his children to marry a commoner bc that would ruin the Lannister name. With his experience of his step-mom he views any commoner who tries to marry a highborn as someone who is whoring themselves out for money and a higher status. In Tywin's own mind I bet he viewed it as protecting Tyrion from what happened to Tytos. Not supporting his decision, just admiring GRRM's ability to create understanding for characters.
She could be a spy-I've never really thought of it that way but it could make sense. It's interesting to think about.
I watched the television show first before I started reading the books, and I was a bit surprised by the two different ways Shae was being portrayed. In the books, she's a gold digger with no real attachment to Tyrion, and I, as the reader, saw it from the beginning. Shae is completely different in the television show. She and Tyrion have a mutually loving relationship. Now here's why I think the show changed Shae and her relationship with Tyrion. The show has been praised a lot for having neither 100 percent "good" or "bad" characters. Mostly everyone operates in a grey moral area.
Now Tyrion has mostly been on the side of good up to this point. Until he kills Shae. Perhaps the Shae/Tyrion relationship in the show was to lead up to the question of how far one could push Tyrion before he would crack? Was Tyrion justified in murdering tv-Shae? We don't really know why she betrayed Tyrion. There could be a whole litany of reasons...Tywin threatening her, she may have been pissed off at Tyrion for rejecting her in favor of Sansa (who she was kind to by the way), etc.
The books also have grey characters. GRRM is noted for saying that in his interviews. Tyrion has some grey; he whores and he is a willing player of the game of thrones. It works better for the show to portray Shae like that. Betraying Tyrion because he was forced to marry Sansa is a pretty poor excuse. Not sure if I feel that Tyrion was justified in killing her. It seemed very rushed to me.
Rebecca wrote: "I think Robina sums both 'Shae's up pretty well. I also prefer the TV Shae, there are more layers to her than the greedy book Shae.In the book I also wondered if Shae had been Tywin's spy reporti..."
I think he wanted so desperately to believe that someone loved him that he ignored her flaws. People who are desperate and lonely can be blind to the truth.
I'm not sure about her real role, but I despised both book and show characters. Her death didn't bother me at all.
