Goodreads Authors/Readers discussion
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Groovy Lee
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Jim wrote: "I personally have posted ratings and reviews for 124 books on Goodreads; all written by traditionally published authors. None have ever contacted me, whether the review was positive, negative, or indifferent. So I presume that the obsession over reviews and the practice of contacting readers is limited to some self-published and independent authors. It is a shame that many professional and talented indies and SPA's are sometimes penalized for the actions of a few. "How would the "actions of a few" ever penalize me? Their behavior is on them. It doesn't affect me in any way. People who look down on SPAs aren't going to read my work anyway. People who are willing to search for good work by SPAs aren't going to be daunted by cruft getting in the way.
Here's one thing to keep in mind though: in the last few years since I decided to self publish, I've met many other writers. From other SPAs I get friendliness, interest, cooperation and a sense of community. From most of the traditionally published small/medium press authors I get condescension, disdain and often outright dismissal. Now that is unprofessional.
Oh, and by the way, I have been contacted by a traditionally published author after I reviewed his book here on Goodreads. We had a great conversation and I went on to read more of his books.
R.F.G. wrote: "If you go into giving something away without any expectation of gaining something in return, you'll never be disappointed those times when you get nothing in return. "I completely agree. This is key.
I give away a lot of printed copies of my books to people I meet, ebook copies to other people. I don't expect anything in return. When I get a review or email contact I'm thrilled and grateful but I never expect it.
I've met a few really great people this way, gotten a few reviews, but most of all the satisfaction that my words are somewhere in their lives and they might actually read them.
J.D. wrote: "I completely agree. This is key.I give away a lot of printed copies of my books to people I meet, ebook copies to other people. I don't expect anything in return. When I get a review or email contact I'm thrilled and grateful but I never expect it.
I've met a few really great people this way, gotten a few reviews, but most of all the satisfaction that my words are somewhere in their lives and they might actually read them."
The Wife had a co-worker return from CA recently with her new husband. I gave him a copy of a book I'm doing final edits on (and let him know it was a test copy done for the Wife).
The guy appreciated the print, and said when he could get to a computer set up he wanted to contact me, so he could get links to the print versions to send to his brother. (He knows I set up the econo-prints.)
I've handed out a few other printed copies that way. So far nobody has hunted me down to complain about my work.
Oh well, time to get Her Grace ready for the park.
R.F.G. wrote: "Groovy,Part of the problem is the mass free-giveaways have been overdone to the point some people simply collect free copies to add to their virtual library as a kind of status thing. Years ago s..."
True. True.
Groovy wrote: "R.F.G. wrote: "Groovy,Part of the problem is the mass free-giveaways have been overdone to the point some people simply collect free copies to add to their virtual library as a kind of status thi..."
I can see that, although I've never understood entering unless the book at least sounded interesting to the person.
Personally I stopped bothering with entering because I never won, not once.
But I do sometimes see friends entering and shelving from Giveaways on my Feed and occasionally that will spark my interest to check a book out. So, there is some value in a bit of visibility.
Next week I'm having a Poetry Event Party on my FB page and part of it will be doing giveaways. Do I expect reviews from those who win? No. Will I kindly in the best way without seeming demeaning and pushy suggest leaving one? Yes.Part of the thing with reviewers is its better to not expect anything from them..if you hold onto people's words and you sent a ton of copies to be reviewed..chances are most will let you down.
Do a number of us take more notice of the stars than the reviews? I ask because I am guilty of never giving five stars as I thought that meant perfect. However, I have since been informed that nothing but five stars and one star are significant and this explains the disappointment some of us feel when we get three or four stars. If I give a book four stars it is a recommendation!
Julie wrote: "Do a number of us take more notice of the stars than the reviews? I ask because I am guilty of never giving five stars as I thought that meant perfect. However, I have since been informed that noth..."@Julie, I think what matters to the author is the average. Of course a 4-star review is a great review.
Unfortunately, too many authors have made it a habit to give away their books for free.
I have stated quite often that giving your book away for free on Bookbub is the fastest way for a book to catch an 'undeserved' 1-star review. That is because at this site too many subscribers gobble up free books which they judged by the cover. If the book is not what they thought it would be some of these "subscribers" will award 1 or 2 star reviews. That pushes books' average ratings down. A 5 star review will help to bring it up again.
Julie wrote: "However, I have since been informed that nothing but five stars and one star are significant and this explains the disappointment some of us feel when we get three or four stars."I'm an odd duck. One and five stars feel like lies to me. I know my writing is not perfect, but I know it's not horrible, either. I'm fine with three and four stars.
Reviews are one factor in my book buying selection process, although they are not the only factor. When I'm trying to decide if I am going to buy, it goes something like this:Look at the cover. Does it appear to be cobbled together by someone who is clearly not professional. Is the title written in yellow comic sans? Is it ugly as homemade sin? If the answer to any of these questions is yes, the process ends because the book is rejected.
Read the blurb. If it is poorly written or has errors, or bores me, I don't get any further. Again, the process stops with a decision to reject.
If the book has made it through those first obstacles, then I look at reviews. I note the number. Are there only a few? If it is a self-published book, this is not a necessarily a problem if they appear genuine. Are they convincing? Are they all five stars. This is odd, and causes me to question the provenance of the reviews. If I recognize a single name of someone that I know sells reviews on fiverr, your book is gone from my consideration.
Are there hundreds of them? If the book is self-published, this is a hint to me that the author has a street team and the bulk of the five star reviews are by rabid fans. This isn't particularly helpful to me, so I discard the reviews from my consideration.
The average rating is of some interest to me. The higher the rating, honestly, the more suspicious I am of the validity of the reviews. The lower the rating, again, I will often be able to discern that the author did something to piss off readers, which resulted in a flurry of one-star ratings. This may or may not be a deal-breaker.
At the end of that, there's a decision to take a chance or discard. Sometimes I will come back to a book later if it has interested me, and buy it.
I do a similar thing. I also crack open the preview and read a few paragraphs. You can usually tell a lot about the book there because the first few pages end up getting the most attention over time. If the book gets past that check I'll look at reviews. After that if I'm still interested I download the sample. When reading kindle books I always start with the sample before buying the book outright unless I'm familiar with the author already. Of course in that case most of my "process" goes out the window.
J.D. wrote: "I do a similar thing. I also crack open the preview and read a few paragraphs. You can usually tell a lot about the book there because the first few pages end up getting the most attention over tim..."I generally don't sample because I feel like it takes up too much time. I will take a look at the look inside on the amazon site, though. The first few paragraphs are critical, because if they contain errors, I'm done.
J.D. wrote: "I also crack open the preview and read a few paragraphs."This is, I believe, the most important thing to do to determine if a book is a worthwhile read or not. The cover, reviews, blurb and all that can be helpful, but it is the writing that is most important. By far. Otherwise we might as well be selling covers and blurbs.
I remember going to Waldenbooks in the mall one summer during college. After choosing a couple of books to buy, I walked up to the counter. There was this free book there. Turned out to be the first third or so of Eye of the World, the first book in Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series.I finished the book that night and went the next day to buy all the books in the series that were out at that time. All subsequent releases, I bought the day they came out in hardback.
I found another of my favorite authors, John Ringo, through the Baen free library. After reading ten or so books of his there, I now buy pretty much everything he releases.
It's just my experience, but "free" books have earned a good bit of money for those authors.
Thanks.
Brian
Yeah, before I commit to reading something I want to get a flavor for the characters, the tone, the writing style. I also tend to be a bit more forgiving of errors. I mean, if there are tons, then I lose interest, but just one every now and then? That's not a deal breaker automatically.
J.D. wrote: "Yeah, before I commit to reading something I want to get a flavor for the characters, the tone, the writing style. I also tend to be a bit more forgiving of errors. I mean, if there are tons, then ..."I'm really pretty unforgiving about errors. I can accept one every ten pages or so, but more than one per page is a deal breaker for me. It's the difference between a writer who knows how to write and just misses things in proofing, and a writer who really doesn't know how to write and is unwilling to hire an editor. The former is absolutely fine, and even to be expected because errors slip through with even the most proficient, conscientious author. The latter needs to learn how to write before he/she starts publishing.
I've also found that the larger the number the errors, generally, the weaker the story underneath all of those errors.
Moonlight Reader wrote: "I've also found that the larger the number the errors, generally, the weaker the story underneath all of those errors."I would imagine so. Respect and understanding of the language one is using is part of the craft, just as a carpenter is going to build a crappy house if he doesn't know how to use the tools.
Dwayne wrote: "Moonlight Reader wrote: "I've also found that the larger the number the errors, generally, the weaker the story underneath all of those errors."I would imagine so. Respect and understanding of t..."
Precisely. It isn't hard to tell a story - human beings are narrative creatures and we spend our lives telling stories.
It is hard to tell a good story, honestly and in a compelling fashion.
Writing fiction is substantially more craft than art, in my opinion. I mean, they say that there are only seven plots, right? It's the execution of the plot that is important.
Ideas are a dime a dozen.
Moonlight Reader wrote: "I'm really pretty unforgiving about errors. I can accept one every ten pages or so, but more than one per page is a deal breaker for me. "Actually that's what I meant by forgiving, so it sounds like we're on the same page :)
Interesting, and I thought getting a Silver Rodent Award for having 'a total of five or fewer insignificant typos or errors' in my first release (60,273 words) was a good thing.Looks like I need to find that perfect button.
R.F.G. wrote: "Interesting, and I thought getting a Silver Rodent Award for having 'a total of five or fewer insignificant typos or errors' in my first release (60,273 words) was a good thing.Looks like I need ..."
It is definitely a good thing.
I think that there is also a bit of a disconnect between "typos" and "bad writing."
Typographical errors are things that slip by in proofing. They have little to do with the skill of the author. An author who knows how to write will still have typos.
I'm not talking about typos when I talk about error-laden books. I'm talking about authors who clearly don't know *how* to write because their books are so replete with errors of grammar, homonym confusion, narration that moves between past/present and/or first/third person seemingly at random because the author doesn't really understand the difference, poor or improper word choice, and major holes in the plot. Those aren't "typos."
Typos are a problem if there are a lot of them, but they don't actually indicate poor writing skills.
Authors typically want to talk about typos because typos are inevitable and exist in all books, including traditionally published books that are widely considered to be extremely well-written. Readers want to talk about bad writing, because they are typically not actually concerned about a few typos.
An author in my group I mod did one of the smartest things I've ever seen done here. She solicited a read to review exchange, but stressed only those with a 3 or above rating average were getting her book. She didn't say she wanted three or above ratings, but she insured her book would go to people who routinely rated higher. She got a lot of reviews, and I didn't hear anything negative from the members about the request set up. Her book has actually become a little popular in our niche subgenre. I keep hearing about it from other book friends. At the time my 2.96 excluded me from the pool, but I still respected her taking some control of the process, without being a whiner about the results.
Moonlight Reader wrote: "It is definitely a good thing.I think that there is also a bit of a disconnect between "typos" and "bad writing."
Typographical errors are things that slip by in proofing. They have little to do with the skill of the author. An author who knows how to write will still have typos.
I'm not talking about typos when I talk about error-laden books. I'm talking about authors who clearly don't know *how* to write because their books are so replete with errors of grammar, homonym confusion, narration that moves between past/present and/or first/third person because the author doesn't really understand the difference, poor or improper word choice, and major holes in the plot. Those aren't "typos."
Typos are a problem if there are a lot of them, but they don't actually indicate poor writing skills."
I do my best to avoid writing caca, mainly because I've hated those times in the past when I've been burned.
I may not have a huge fan base (mainly due to lack of promoting), but I do strive to make my fiction something the reader will enjoy. Since I've managed to have readers come back for more, I believe I'm doing my job.
But for me, I'll concentrate on my writing rather than trying to get reviews simply because while I can learn from what particular readers did or didn't like, they can't write upcoming stories for me.
And on that happy note, it's almost Her Grace's nap time -- that magical period when I can put a load of Wife's laundry in the washer and then bury my nose in final edits so I can get another novel released.
im a slow reviewer (devices break and no lights time to time) so it takes me a while to read especially since its unpaid. dont worry too much. folks have lives
Moonlight Reader wrote: "Reviews are one factor in my book buying selection process, although they are not the only factor. When I'm trying to decide if I am going to buy, it goes something like this:Look at the cover. D..."
Just a question, Moonlight Reader, but how do you make homemade sin? :)
Anyway, I've come to learn from all of what I'm reading, not to rest my writing career on reviews. Be professional and create the best cover, write a compelling story so that when readers skim over the blurb, their interest is peaked. Ratings help, but it seems most people judge whether they want to read your book or not by the cover and writing style of your blurb and first few pages. As I've mentioned before, my daughter told me that one stars only makes her want to check the book out to see why it received that. And then she finds that she actually loves the book.
No matter how good a writer you are, some people are going to hate your work, give you one stars and snippy reviews (you should see the mean ones I get) But there are those that will absolutely love your work, they get you, and those are the ones that matter. So, I'm going to do all I can to be the best writer I can be and know that the ones that get me, will find me.
Groovy wrote: "Just a question, Moonlight Reader, but how do you make homemade sin?"It often involves muddy nonsensical images and weird, nearly unreadable fonts. ;)
Groovy,No one writer will ever be able to appeal to every single reader, so the wisest course is to do your best to appeal as much as possible to your target audience.
R.F.G. wrote: "Groovy,No one writer will ever be able to appeal to every single reader, so the wisest course is to do your best to appeal as much as possible to your target audience."
You're right, R.F.G.
I learned that the hard way. When I first began the Kindle journey, I thought, now that my book is published, people are going to LOVE it. Boy, did I crash a fiery trail back to earth, and real fast. But as I've said, from the good advice I've received from all of you, I'm flying once again, just with some common literary sense.
My target audience is finding me--slowly. At least now I can pay a few bills with my sales :)
Thanks! Now I'm going to go and see if I can make homemade sin;)
Groovy wrote: "My target audience is finding me--slowly. At least now I can pay a few bills with my sales :)Thanks! Now I'm going to go and see if I can make homemade sin;) "
Maybe one of these days my writing will pay enough to cover copyright registration fees and cover art. Then again there are a lot of aspiring sci-fi writers out there, some of them producing schlock or complete dreck, that makes it harder for the audience to find a book.
As for making homemade sin, the next time I do that I'll name the result Lilit :)
R.F.G. wrote: "Groovy wrote: "My target audience is finding me--slowly. At least now I can pay a few bills with my sales :)Thanks! Now I'm going to go and see if I can make homemade sin;) "
Maybe one of these ..."
Copyright attaches by law at creation. Registration makes it easier to prove violation, and is necessary in order to file a copyright infringement lawsuit for damages/attorneys fees.
Moonlight Reader wrote: "From a legal perspective, as I understand it, there is no reason to register a copyright. Copyright attaches by law at creation. Registration makes it easier to prove violation. "True, as you noted copyright registration is not required, but makes proving a violation in court is far easier.
The way my luck goes if I didn't register my work a violation would occur. Then again, by registering my work it has a value (of sorts) attached, as the readers at the copyright office do (I believe, though I could be wrong) flag cases of plagiarism and reject the registration.
Groovy wrote: "Moonlight Reader wrote: "Reviews are one factor in my book buying selection process, although they are not the only factor. When I'm trying to decide if I am going to buy, it goes something like t..."People who read a lot know that ratings and reviews are personal opinions, and tastes vary.
Depending on the information given they can be helpful in determining whether or not we'll enjoy the book (and our determination may differ from that of the reviewer).
And when we know someone enough to know our tastes tend to be similar their reviews can carry more weight and be more helpful.
Also blurbs and covers aren't always as informative as to the genre of a book, or general plot. Reviews can help a lot there as well.
But I don't believe they have the same influence that many indie authors seem to be telling each other they do.
Reviews can give a book some exposure, particularly on sites like GR, and that can cause people to check it out that wouldn't have heard about it otherwise (I've found MANY books I've enjoyed this way).
But they shouldn't (IMO) be expected to be an authors sole marketing or promotion plan. Readers and consumers aren't author promoters - except by happy accident when we do find a book we love and want to talk about and share.
Julie wrote: "Do a number of us take more notice of the stars than the reviews? I ask because I am guilty of never giving five stars as I thought that meant perfect. However, I have since been informed that noth..."I don't give many books 5 stars. Just in my personal opinion most books just are not 5 star books. Nothing wrong with that, most authors will never write a "Harry Potter", as much as I'm sure most would like that.
I also ignore averaged star ratings, as they can mean many things, and also often are easily manipulated.
I also don't give out a lot of 4 star ratings. On GR 3 stars is "I liked it", and for me that is where many books I read fall. That's not a BAD rating.
The reader/reviewer should review and rate honestly. Not worry if they are not rating high enough to please someone else.
Although on GR users can use the ratings to mean whatever it means to them the suggested meaning is
1 - Did not like it
2 - It was ok
3 - I liked it
4 - Really liked it
5 - It was amazing
But if you prefer not to give 5 stars because you feel that means perfection, that is completely your right to do so.
If consumers can't have confidence in honest ratings and reviews the whole thing crumbles and is no use to anyone.
Brian wrote: "I remember going to Waldenbooks in the mall one summer during college. After choosing a couple of books to buy, I walked up to the counter. There was this free book there. Turned out to be the f..."Yup,
And I posted previously in this thread how a free book that was first in a series got me hooked on a new series I love. :D
Auntie J wrote: "Julie wrote: "Do a number of us take more notice of the stars than the reviews? I ask because I am guilty of never giving five stars as I thought that meant perfect. However, I have since been info..."My ratings are pretty much a bell curve, with the top of the curve 4 stars. I have a total of 173, ratings as follows:
5 stars: 27 books (15%)
4 stars: 80 books (46%)
3 stars: 47 books (27%)
2 stars: 15 books (8%)
1 star: 3 books (1%)
I basically rate is follows:
5 stars: an extraordinary book that is highly significant to me.
4 stars: a really good book that I enjoyed a lot. I will probably re-read this book.
3 stars: a good book, but one that I probably won't reread. Average.
2 stars: an acceptable book, but with serious issues.
1 star: a book that fails utterly and that should probably not have been published. Could be plagiarized, or derivative to the point of being offensive. Deeply flawed.
Groovy wrote: "I could use some more advice. Here's my dilemma: I just sent off another book for reviewing. As I was looking at my list of reviewers I sent this particular book to, I noticed that out of the eight..."Hi Groovy:
I have gone through the same thought process and questioning. I have simply decided to write, put it away for a break, rewrite and repeat. After enough rewriting to feel like I am closing in on the best I can do, I ask a couple beta readers to go over the story. I ask them for story feedback and to also please mark any typos they find. I rewrite again, as many times as it takes to again feel like I have it as best I can. Sometimes I pay for an editor. Then I self-publish on Amazon and I ask for reviews within the book itself. My books garner few reviews. I really don't know how some writers get so many. I'm not losing anymore sleep over it. My job is to choose subjects well, write well, publish and promote. I don't think I am going to send out to reviewers much anymore. I like the unsolicited reviews I receive in that there is really no bias at all other than what the reader/reviewer brings to the act on their own. Reviews, whether positive or not, are appreciated. The good make me smile, and the bad make me work harder.
Best wishes.
Patrick wrote: "Groovy wrote: "I could use some more advice. Here's my dilemma: I just sent off another book for reviewing. As I was looking at my list of reviewers I sent this particular book to, I noticed that o..."Thank you, Patrick
That's exactly what I've decided, too: write well, publish, and promote, and not solicit reviewers. And I agree with you that the unsolicited ones are the best. 99% of the ones I get are from that source, so no more free books for a review except for the few reliable, fan/friends I've come to count on.
All the best to you in your creative journey.
Hi,It is frustrating, but part of the process. While I have not received many reviews I did receive two reviews from Amazon reviewers that were incredibly uplifting.
I would also make sure that you created an author page on Amazon. The more access you have to your fans the better.
http://www.amazon.com/Mr.-M/e/B00UQI2...
I attended a book signing this evening where the author explained his book and took questions. Before the signing began he kindly asked if everyone could leave a review on Amazon it would be much appreciated. This is a clear demonstration that it's perfectly okay to ask for reviews, you just got to be courteous and ask nicely.
I also created an Amazon author page recently.http://www.amazon.com/Susan-Murphy/e/...
I've had 17 reviews on Goodreads so far which have all been great (except for 1 or 2 who said they didn't normally read this stuff). I've also had some on my Amazon iTunes and Google Play listings. I think being able to connect with people or write posts on social media about how important it is for a book to get some reviews can sometimes be better than asking straight out, although I'm not opposed to asking people directly to post a review if they feel they'd like to.
Hi All,Today is my lucky day! I got a review. Someone gave my Supernatural tale five fangs!
http://wp.me/p3DolR-54z
On Goodreads I generally don't bother adding a book to my shelves that I would rate at less than 3 stars. I can't imagine what the point would be of having books I really disliked on my shelf. I end up having more 4s and 5s. I tend to treat my shelves as books I'd recommend to a friend.
J.D. wrote: "On Goodreads I generally don't bother adding a book to my shelves that I would rate at less than 3 stars. I can't imagine what the point would be of having books I really disliked on my shelf. I en..."That's nice. I shelve everything I read so I can track what I've read, and what I thought of it. So that if something catches my interest years later I can see, "oh, I read that already".
People shelve however suits them best, and that differs by individual.
Part of the problem is the mass free-giveaways have been overdone to the point some people simply collect free copies to add to their virtual library as a kind of status thing. Years ago some people would have bookshelves full of mostly untouched books for the same reason.
I give away free e-copies if contacted, no review asked for or expected. I'll give a print copy to someone I know, or steer someone to both the economy and premium paper print versions.
If you go into giving something away without any expectation of gaining something in return, you'll never be disappointed those times when you get nothing in return.