21st Century Literature discussion
10/23 Carpentaria
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Carpentaria - Substantive Discussion
I wasn't sure after the first two chapters. But I kept reading & have read through chapter 7 (getting close to halfway through the book). It just gets better & better with each chapter. I feel like this book has cracked open my brain to experience new viewpoints, new thought processes, kind of the same way Freshwater by Akwaeke Emezi did for me too. (Ironically, also a book with a snake drawing on the cover.)
Otherwise, not sure what to say yet. But, wow, I am loving it.
One thing I will open the discussion about -- the first two chapters have an "opening" or overview type statement at the beginning of each chapter. Same size font as the regular text but in all caps. Initially, it reminded me of Victorian style (?) books that have the little statements that are an overview of the action to come in each chapter. (And, when I tend to see those, I just skip over them, sometimes reading them afterward but almost never before I read the chapter.)
But I don't think that's the case here. I think the statements are bigger than just the chapters they are attached to. The following chapters (at least 3 through 7, which is what I've read so far) do not have these all caps intros. As I'm reading further, I feel like the statements are covering the entire book & even the stories & history that are larger than the book.
I would love to hear your thoughts on this.
Mod
It's an odd book to get into. I didn't really warm to the first chapter, but by the end of the second (which is where I'm currently at) I was rather hooked. It's funnier, more brutal, and bleaker than I pictured. Angel Day is a pretty amusing character and I love the phrasing used to introduce her: "... the woman had always been a hornet's nest waiting to be disturbed."
What did you all make of the names Normal Phantom and Angel Day? And what of them as a couple?
Stacia I'm glad to hear your take - I finished through chapter 2 and and so far not hooked, but I'll keep going! So far it feels scattered and a little hard to follow, but I have hope it'll come together. The names are pretty wild!
I’m a few pages into Chapter 3 and having a similar experience. I really liked the murkiness of the first two chapters but I’m hoping it turns more concrete. Stacia, your comments are encouraging.
I’m enjoying reading this so far, just 2 chapters in. Quite different to my usual read.I found the first chapter effective on setting the story within the much vaster context of the creation of the land and the Aboriginal’s symbiosis with the land ‘since before time began’. The language Wright uses is both visceral & violent portraying a real sense of the inhospitality of the environment, which ‘never gave an ant an inch of shelter’. I found myself thinking again of the creation of time as a construct when Angel Day found the clock. It reminded me of Blake, who considered clocks to be one of the devices of Urizen; a chain of reason imposed on the mind.
With the second chapter, I thought of the parallels with my own community whenever Travellers take up encampment. The clash of lifestyles & differing codes of conduct. Plus, a deep rooted fear of otherness. There are obviously fundamental differences between this example & that in the book but some elements hold true. And I thought the description of the battle of the tip was well drawn, I could picture it all happening.
I haven’t properly formulated my thoughts on the stories at the start of the first two chapters. They are from the Aboriginal perspective. I see them as being part of history by storytelling of the Aboriginal culture. Definitely, wider than the scope of each chapter as Stacia says.The ‘So…’ at the end of the opening story of Chapter 2 suggests ‘to be expanded on here’ as does, to a lesser degree the ‘ARMAGEDDON STARTS HERE’ of Chapter 1.
Not a lot of thought on the names yet. They seem like the names missionaries would give - a list of Christian virtues - Angel, Truthful. Then you get something like Normal thrown in, which, in the sense of normal as typical or expected, he certainly isn’t. I don’t feel I know enough about Normal & Angel’s relationship yet to pass much comment. Other than it appears to be more equal than I expected, & remarkable it can take a 5 year absence in its stride.
I had a look at Google Maps view of the country. Sure enough, there were the rivers Snake had left behind on the coast. But where were the towns? I switched on "satellite view" and was shocked: the apparent "high water" mark is TEN MILES in from the shoreline. It's hard to imagine that much empty land.
Thanks for that tip to check Google Maps, Mark. I had checked Wikipedia so I don't know why I hadn't thought of maps. It does give you a feel of how desolate it is.
These have some photos & info about the area:http://www.gangalidda-garawa.com.au/
http://www.burketown.com.au/
https://parks.des.qld.gov.au/parks/fi...
I agree with Lesley that the names seem like missionary-given names.Normal and Angel seem like such an odd, mismatched couple. I can only think that there are limited people so maybe odd matches happen?
My last (literary) visit to rural Australia was A Town Like Alice. It makes a sharp contrast between the "high colonial" setting of Alice and the indigenous-centric Carpentaria. Both books include seemingly odd indigenous names. I'm guessing it reflects their real separation from Western traditions; names are chosen for apparent meaning, not historical or family associations. (On a side note, I've found that a "hidden word" puzzle can be a pretty accurate indicator of native English speakers when the hidden words are English names; "John" is hard to spot when it's backwards.)
I did some google map searching too - and yes it's even more remote than I was picturing from the story. Even the highways are dirt roads (looking at street view).Thanks for the links, Stacia. This really helps me visualize what I'm reading.
I've been thinking about the names too. They do sound like missionary names. They also sound like names chosen by people who don't quite understand the language. It makes for an interesting effect.
David wrote: "I did some google map searching too - and yes it's even more remote than I was picturing from the story. Even the highways are dirt roads (looking at street view).Thanks for the links, Stacia. Th..."
Yes. I agree on the names being chosen by people who don’t quite get the language. I think they are a result of trying to find a footing between the traditional Aboriginal culture & the ‘whitefella’ world. I also think Alexis Wright is having fun with us sometimes.
There’s a theme of new beginnings - for the Uptown people too - it’s a place where people just appear. Quite literally on occasion.
I think back to Chapter 1 where it didn’t matter what anyone chose to call the river - it only ever had one name, Wangala.
Stacia wrote: "These have some photos & info about the area:http://www.gangalidda-garawa.com.au/
http://www.burketown.com.au/
https://parks.des.qld.gov.au/parks/fi..."
Really useful for getting a feel of the place. Thanks
When do people think the present is? Late 19th century?
Chapter 3 about the arrival of Elias Smith reminded me somewhat of Galore: A Novel by Michael Crummey.David's comments about the roads being dirt is a good visual for parts of chapter 6.
Lesley, I think the present is the 1990s or early 2000s. Basically the present being the time when the author was writing the book.
It's interesting you asked about time, Lesley, because I was just looking up info to understand more about Aboriginal beliefs. I came across this:"None of the hundreds of Aboriginal languages contain a word for time. When we try to explain in English their philosophy we are perhaps best not to use the term ‘Dreamtime’ but use the word ‘Dreaming’ instead.
It conveys better the timeless concept of moving from ‘dream’ to reality which in itself is an act of creation and the basis of many Aboriginal creation myths.
Aboriginal spirituality does not think about the ‘Dreaming’ as a time past, in fact not as a time at all. Time refers to past, present and future but the ‘Dreaming’ is none of these.
The ‘Dreaming’ “is there with them, it is not a long way away. The Dreaming is the environment that First Nations People lived in, and still do today. It is important to note that the Dreaming always also comprises the significance of place."
From: https://www.aboriginal-art-australia....
More Aboriginal belief info here:
https://japingkaaboriginalart.com/abo...
Thanks for the maps and links. It's helpful to read this book in the context of it being told from an aboriginal perspective, not just the main characters, but the storytelling style.I just finished chapter 4 (going slow while reading other book at the same time). With the names, I'm intrigued by all the other interesting names, then we get "Kevin." Also interesting that Normal Phantom has been shorted to just "Norm."
I liked chapter 3 and Elias Smith. The town's inventiveness in creating his backstory, and then later his demise is so interesting.
Marc wrote: "What did you all make of the names Normal Phantom and Angel Day? And what of them as a couple?"When I was reading about the Rainbow Serpent Dreaming here, https://japingkaaboriginalart.com/art... , (which Norm is intimately related with/connected to), I noticed this statement: "...the Rainbow Serpent is linked to water sources around creeks and rivers, and is responsible for the production of water plants - waterlilies, vines and palms, that grow near water."
And, it made me think of Angel in Chapter 2, ""I was born near lilies so I must see lilies," she once told him, calmly pouting towards the waterlilies growing in the swamp at the back, and once that happened, not even a grappling pick would have plied another word about the matter from her own sweet lips."
So, even though I thought of them as an odd couple, maybe they are more related on a deeper level, both stemming from the Serpent in different, but related, ways.
I'm loving this discussion. Stacia, you are making this hard to put down!Since people are reading at different paces, I've tried to pace ourselves with spoilers (currently allowed through Chapter 2). How does everyone feel if I relax that a bit? This isn't a book dependent on plot twists.
Mod
"K.O’B: You’ve said that, like many Aboriginal people, your
grandmother collapsed history and assimilated the remote Dreamtime into the present in order to explain her attachment to Country. What do you mean by collapsing history?
A.W: We come from a long history and association in this country, we have got ancient epical stories that tell about how the land has been created, and that is still very important to Aboriginal people whether they live in urban areas of the country or remote areas. And the way people tell stories; they will bring all the stories of the past, from ancient times and to the stories of the last 200 years (that have also created enormous stories for Indigenous people), and also stories happening now. It is hard to understand, but all times are important.
I have also studied writing and literature from overseas, where
other writers have a long association with their country. Carlos
Fuentes, Gabriel Garcia Marquez and Eduardo Galeano, South
American writers, and also the French-Caribbean writer, Patrick
Chamoiseau.
K O’B: What have you learnt?
A.W: What I have learnt is that they have shown me how to write all times. How you write a book like Carpentaria that incorporates all times. Carlos Fuentes once said: ‘All times are important in Mexico, and no time has ever been resolved.’ And for Indigenous Australia that’s the same, we have the same feeling and same understanding. It’s about weaving history and myth into the present situation, and that’s what I’ve tried to do, and through the narration of the novel. "
(The full interview is here and does not contain spoilers: https://www.westernsydney.edu.au/__da...)
Thanks for the Rainbow Serpent link, Stacia.
Stacia wrote: "Chapter 10 is intense."Gosh, I just finished 6 & that was gripping - 10 must be quite something.
Stacia wrote: "Marc wrote: "What did you all make of the names Normal Phantom and Angel Day? And what of them as a couple?"When I was reading about the Rainbow Serpent Dreaming here, https://japingkaaboriginala..."
I really like the idea of Norm & Angel being connected at a fundamental level. Different characters but stemming from the same source, as you say.
I’m not sure of Angel’s relationship to the Dreaming. She seems to share characteristics with the snake spirit whose nest she insists on making their home on.
David wrote: "I'm loving this discussion. Stacia, you are making this hard to put down!Since people are reading at different paces, I've tried to pace ourselves with spoilers (currently allowed through Chapter..."
I’m a slow reader - currently on Chapter 7 - but I’m happy for the discussion to be opened up as much as you like.
A friend shared some of this essay with me earlier today (not related to the book), but it definitely fits in with the discussion here. https://www.miriamrosefoundation.org....
An excerpt from the link...
"In our Aboriginal way, we learnt to listen from our earliest days. We could not live good and useful lives unless we listened. This was the normal way for us to learn – not by asking questions. We learnt by watching and listening, waiting and then acting. Our people have passed on this way of listening for over 40,000 years…
There is no need to reflect too much and to do a lot of thinking. It is just being aware.
My people are not threatened by silence. They are completely at home in it. They have lived for thousands of years with Nature’s quietness. My people today, recognise and experience in this quietness, the great Life-Giving Spirit, the Father of us all. It is easy for me to experience God’s presence. When I am out hunting, when I am in the bush, among the trees, on a hill or by a billabong; these are the times when I can simply be in God’s presence. My people have been so aware of Nature. It is natural that we will feel close to the Creator.
Dr Stanner, the anthropologist who did much of his work among the Daly River tribes, wrote this: “Aboriginal religion was probably one of the least material minded, and most life-minded of any of which we have knowledge”…
And now I would like to talk about the other part of dadirri which is the quiet stillness and the waiting.
Our Aboriginal culture has taught us to be still and to wait. We do not try to hurry things up. We let them follow their natural course – like the seasons. We watch the moon in each of its phases. We wait for the rain to fill our rivers and water the thirsty earth…
When twilight comes, we prepare for the night. At dawn we rise with the sun.
We watch the bush foods and wait for them to ripen before we gather them. We wait for our young people as they grow, stage by stage, through their initiation ceremonies. When a relation dies, we wait a long time with the sorrow. We own our grief and allow it to heal slowly.
We wait for the right time for our ceremonies and our meetings. The right people must be present. Everything must be done in the proper way. Careful preparations must be made. We don’t mind waiting, because we want things to be done with care. Sometimes many hours will be spent on painting the body before an important ceremony.
We don’t like to hurry. There is nothing more important than what we are attending to. There is nothing more urgent that we must hurry away for.
We wait on God, too. His time is the right time. We wait for him to make his Word clear to us. We don’t worry. We know that in time and in the spirit of dadirri (that deep listening and quiet stillness) his way will be clear.
We are River people. We cannot hurry the river. We have to move with its current and understand its ways."
David, I'm ok with opening the discussion up for more chapters.Marc, thanks for the interview link.
Lesley wrote: "I’m not sure of Angel’s relationship to the Dreaming. She seems to share characteristics with the snake spirit whose nest she insists on making their home on."
I keep wondering about that too. How it's affecting things, if it will play a bigger part in events as the book goes on....
Stacia thanks for sharing the link and excerpt. It does totally fit with the tone and style of the book and reminds me to listen as I read. I just finished chapter 7 and am happy to open the discussion up for more chapters (including past 7). The stories weave in and out of each other so much.
One thing that's coming out stronger the deeper I get into the book - a strong hatred and fear of the police. The police seem to be either completely absent when they are needed, or actively harming the town's aboriginals. Some deep seeded stuff.
OK to discuss all of the book, regardless of how far you are. I added this to the opening post:Feel free to discuss the entire book. This isn't a book dependent on plot twists, so I'm not too worried about spoilers. But if there's anything that might be sensitive for readers at a slower pace, feel free to use the spoiler tag.
I finished the book this evening. Fascinating book.Random comments that I will put in spoiler tags (even though things I say may not be spoilers). I'm sure I'll think of other things to say later.
(view spoiler)
Great comments, Stacia. I'm still working my way through the book but this comment of yours is such a great description of what I've noticed too: "I felt the storytelling worked seamlessly to have people from the past & present, non-living & living, working, talking, communicating with one another. Sometimes it was hard for me to tell if someone was "alive" or not. I thought something happened & they died, but then they still become so real to to the action"This also speaks to Lesley's question about when the story takes place. It's almost like it takes place multiple times at once, sort of the opposite of a timeless story.
Timeless in a way but also timeful. (I don't think that's a word but it's what I thought of after your comment, David.)Time full?
After finishing, I like to read the various GR reviews. A review from almost ten years ago includes, "I need way more time to digest but this book is extraordinary. I've never before read anything that so effectively conveys an experience of living across two cultures."I think this is a good point. While I've read books from different viewpoints & taking place across cultures, I think Carpentaria really set me fully in another's world, where those like me (whitefella) truly were the background (regardless of the destruction they wrought).
Earlier I mentioned Freshwater alongside Carpentaria as being books that really let me experience the world from a different viewpoint. With Freshwater, when it came out, "magical realism" was bandied about though it felt like an incorrect categorization to me. I haven't seen that as much in things I've read about Carpentaria but I wonder if some would categorize it as such? I also don't consider Carpentaria as magical realism. I guess I see it as a worldview.
I would love to hear others' thoughts on some of these topics.
I think the comparison to Freshwater is a really good one. Even though they are different books, both are disorienting in the way they use narrative techniques to disrupt my sense of time, place, chronology, etc.With Freshwater, the disorientation served to situate me in Ada's experience. With Carpentaria, the disorientation serves to situate me in the worldview of the Aboriginal community. I like how you used the word worldview. Carpentaria is about the whole experience.
I usually shy away from using the term magical realism unless the author describes the book using that term. Like you, I wouldn't use it here or for Freshwater, although I can understand why other people would use it here.
One thing I really appreciate about this book is the lack of romanticism. Even when touching on myths and beliefs, there remains an earthy quality.I keep thinking about the early scene where a fight breaks out at the town dump. That image is full of metaphor, but it's also such a visceral scene of utter poverty.
I'm loving everyone's comments and discussion. I'm quite behind (started chapter 9) since I'm trying to read too many things at once right now but I'm hoping to finish this week and will come back soon with thoughts to add.I'm really intrigued by Elias and his impact on the community in the last few chapters.
Oof you guys were right, Chapter 10 was a lot. So many deaths!Quote from Chapter 11 that I liked:
"Pack it in ice," Fishman told the crew was the best way to handle the heart."
The intensity definitely picks up after the opening chapters.
Having just finished the book, I feel I’d have to read it several more times to get anything like a grasp on understanding it. We are so constrained by our own perspectives that it is difficult to leave those constraints & enter into another framework entirely. I was confused many times by what was real & what wasn’t - the magic realism elements. Did Hope really fall from the sky? It was only when I left logic behind & viewed it more as a ‘fairy tale’ that I found a rhythm to my reading.
The overriding impressions I have from the book are those of land, time & endurance.
The book begins with the Serpent scoring & scouring its path through the earth to form the rivers and it ends with water having reasserted dominance. The town & its inhabitants have been less than a speck in time.
It’s a harsh environment throughout for people to survive in & there seemed to be an element of the microcosm reflecting the macrocosm in the brutality & rough justice of Uptown. A fighting to tame the environment. I felt that Norm endured because he accepted & was in tune with the land, rather than trying to impose his own order on it.
Our linear concept of time is so ingrained in our minds & language. The past is behind us, the future ahead. The dividing of time into days & hours. This hit home to me when Angel found the clock. The simultaneous existence of all times, & potentially all possibilities, is more akin to quantum physics & I found that model helped a little - still trying to impose my own frame of reference on the book.
To me, the story is one of endurance. The Aboriginals have accepted & endured the landscape for thousands of years, finding ways to survive in the harsh environment. They endure the invasion of the whitefella world. I didn’t understand why Norm didn’t fight back, why he didn’t go & ‘make trouble’ when urged to. Now, I think perhaps his view is of the bigger picture.
Elias seemed to me to be an eternal figure.
I would like to know more about Angel but this wasn’t her story. The only real glimpse I got was when it was mentioned she only relaxed & became herself when alone.
All the above is a brain dump on having finished.
Overall, I found it a difficult book in terms of it being outside of my own mindset. That is a good thing. I find myself, sometimes many years later, coming to a realisation & thinking ‘ah, that’s what they meant’.
The fate of the 3 boys was heartbreaking. All the more so in light of it not being surprising.
I’m not sure about hope, apart from hope being embedded in human nature. There is hope on an individual level. There is hope of a more peaceable life for those remaining, in the short term. There is hope that others will find each other.
I’d be interested to know what everyone feels about hope. I keep going back to the passages preceding the first 2 chapters.
Lesley wrote: "The fate of the 3 boys was heartbreaking. All the more so in light of it not being surprising."That's how I felt too, Lesley. The feeling that of course that was what was going to happen.
Lesley wrote: "I’d be interested to know what everyone feels about hope. I keep going back to the passages preceding the first 2 chapters.""The People of Parable and Prophesy pondered what was hopeless and finally declared they no longer knew what hope was."
That sentence in particular struck me. Another way to put it might be: What can we even hope for?
Stacia wrote: "Timeless in a way but also timeful. (I don't think that's a word but it's what I thought of after your comment, David.)Time full?"
I love ‘time full’. I’ll definitely carry that forward.
Lesley wrote: "Overall, I found it a difficult book in terms of it being outside of my own mindset. That is a good thing."I just finished and totally agree Lesley. It was a challenging book since it was so different than what I usually read, and that's why I appreciated it.
Gosh the last 100 pages or so were so much. The storm was such a huge event, felt quite metaphorical with how much it wiped out. Are we ok to talk about the ending without spoiler tags?
Go ahead and talk about the ending. I have three more chapters left, so I might duck out and return in a day or two.It feels like the intensity level increased with each chapter. The opening chapters were slow, but once the story got chugging it's been great.
This has also been outside my usual reading. I hoped it would be so this has lived up to expectations.
21st Century Literature
Books mentioned in this topic
Freshwater (other topics)Freshwater (other topics)
Galore: A Novel (other topics)
Freshwater (other topics)
Carpentaria (other topics)
Authors mentioned in this topic
Michael Crummey (other topics)Akwaeke Emezi (other topics)
Alexis Wright (other topics)
UPDATE: Feel free to discuss the entire book. This isn't a book dependent on plot twists, so I'm not too worried about spoilers. But if there's anything that might be sensitive for readers at a slower pace, feel free to use the spoiler tag.