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[2024] Poll 16 Voting
With respect to the "maginalized person" prompt, women are marginalized in much of historical fiction. The list of things women aren't expected/allowed to do in fiction is depressingly long.
Voted 6 up and 2 down. Sorry but Barbie is a hard no. For me, Barbie represents so much about what is wrong with how women are objectified, giving her lots of "jobs"/costumes doesn't change that.
Edie wrote: "Voted 6 up and 2 down. Sorry but Barbie is a hard no. For me, Barbie represents so much about what is wrong with how women are objectified, giving her lots of "jobs"/costumes doesn't change that."I think you are so right
I normally will not vote for a prompt with the author's gender as a criterion but I am still voting for the prompt with the female or non-binary prize winner. There are a few Nebula winners (and several other awards) I have on my TBR. I understand the suggester's (and possibly the seconder's) intent was to select a prize dominated by men but that's not in the prompt so I don't think it needs to be a consideration. Some of these prizes, like the Nebulas, became more balanced starting around the 2000s as more women started writing speculative fiction. I definitely want to support those authors, especially if the books are well written, which I'm sure they are!I am also a hard No on the Barbie prompt. When I think of Barbie, I think of her Malibu house and the dune buggy and the head that you put make up on and styled her hair! I just have no interest in whatever careers she had over the years. I would prefer a specific career to be indicated like entertainment or journalism/writing or artist. I understand, though, that we have had a hard time getting one of those prompts voted in.
Pam wrote: "I understand the suggester's (and possibly the seconder's) intent was to select a prize dominated by men but that's not in the prompt so I don't think it needs to be a consideration.”Just because one particular award may be well balanced among genders doesn’t mean the male bias isn’t true as a whole.
The idea here is to celebrate or showcase female authors that win prizes that have traditionally been awarded to men. See Message #56 where I explain this in detail with quotes and links.
Pick an award. Check the list of winners. If there are both male and female winners it counts.
These are my thoughts only on the prompts I feel most strongly about (still trying to figure out the entire lineup):UPs:
2- A book with wings on the cover: like others have said, just open enough for variety.
8- A nonfiction book about a topic you have always wanted to learn about: so far I haven't heard a lot of positive comments about this prompt, but I REALLY like it. Maybe I'm weird, but I'd use this to read about City Planning, Forensic Science, or Watchmaking (and I have books picked out for all 3, one of which I already own). The previews of them all show that they are enjoyable to read and not dry. I know I can read these using Not a Novel, but I have several other choices for that prompt.
9- A book with a clock on the cover: I have both a fiction AND a non-fiction choice for this prompt. The non-fiction choice is a book I also have as a choice for Nonfiction Book About a Topic You Have Always Wanted to Learn About.
11- A book set in a group living situation: I have several options for this, but my favorites are Running the Books: The Adventures of an Accidental Prison Librarian (which would allow me to read one of the books I flagged for "Librarians on the Loose") and Pope Joan (about the mythical female pope).
15- A book with a character who has an alter ego: this would allow me to read Pageboy by Elliot Page - a memoir about the trans male actor (formerly known by the dead name Ellen Page) as I mentioned earlier in this thread. Yes, this also could be used for Not a Novel, but... may choices for that one.
DOWNs:
maybe 5- A book where at least one character is trapped: this just isn't appealing, unless I found just the right book, and going through the lists provided I was NOT finding the right book.
13- A book involving politics, public service, or publicity at any level: like Ellie and a few others have mentioned, I hear too much about politics already, and none of it positive. I'm disgusted by the current state of American politics. If this gets in I suppose I could read Pete Buttigieg's book about his accomplishments as Mayor of South Bend, Indiana
I suggested a character in education as it covers the child character that has been suggested a couple of times but also opens it out a bit more. There are mysteries set in schools or universities, fantasy schools, romances with teachers etc. I also upvoted wings and clocks on the cover as I love a scavenger hunt and I already have a few ideas in mind.
I also voted for X connection. I like to have year specific themes so have been voting for most of the X ones.
But dalex, that’s not actually what the prompt is. It’s not limited to those that are predominantly dominated by men. Thomas confirmed that above. It could be a romance award that is predominantly women winners, but if Nicholas sparks has won once all the female authors could still be used.
Alicia wrote: "But dalex, that’s not actually what the prompt is. It’s not limited to those that are predominantly dominated by men. Thomas confirmed that above...."Overall there is a bias towards men in the prize world.
“Although women read more than men and books by female authors are published in roughly the same numbers, they are vastly overlooked for prizes in comparison to male authors.”
https://www.vidaweb.org/women-and-pri...
Yes, you can choose an award that is more female focused but that doesn’t negate the fact that prizes overall are male dominated.
I’m not saying they aren’t. They clearly are. But it essentially just becomes an award winning woman or non-binary author. Which is just too broad for me.
I didn't vote for or against the award prompt. I think it is very doable, but I don't like the fact that it has to be winners. I tend to not like award winners, and the anti female bias is just one of the reasons.
Pam wrote: "I normally will not vote for a prompt with the author's gender as a criterion but I am still voting for the prompt with the female or non-binary prize winner. There are a few Nebula winners (and se..."If I’m being honest I hadn’t thought about whether the prize was male dominated. I just wanted an award won by a woman or non binary that wasn’t an award where men are specifically excluded
Thomas - Perfect since that’s how I’m interpreting it! I’m looking for books on the Scotiabank Giller list and have added a bunch of books to my TBR, male and female authors!
Kat wrote: "I suggested a character in education as it covers the child character that has been suggested a couple of times but also opens it out a bit more. There are mysteries set in schools or universities,..."Apart from clocks I’m with you on all those although even clocks I could live with
Nadine in NY wrote: "Vicki wrote: "Shannon wrote: "This is a really good list. I am thinking I will up-vote the following:2.) A book with wings on the cover.
3.) A book with an X connection (I am a GenXer myself, so ..."
Thanks, Nadine!
Tracy wrote: "Thanks for finding this link problem Charlsa. The link was correct to start. It must have gotten broken with various copy/paste operations."No problem. It happened to one of my suggestions that made it to voting as well. It has to be hard to keep all these links straight as we copy and paste them.
Charlsa - I think what happened is that someone suggested the idea for me and just copied my original discussion, which of course chops off the URL.
I did 5 up and 3 down. I'm hoping we vote in 5 prompts between this poll and the next because I'm almost tired of these poll. (We did have 17 polls last year.)
Dubhease wrote: "I did 5 up and 3 down. I'm hoping we vote in 5 prompts between this poll and the next because I'm almost tired of these poll. (We did have 17 polls last year.)"
I certainly hope we don’t end up with a poll with one slot left would love a 2 and 3 between these two polls in either order
dalex wrote: "Alicia wrote: "For #1, wouldn’t that be almost all award winning female writers? A large majority of awards are open to men."The idea here is to celebrate or showcase female authors that win priz..."
Thanks for the clarification, @dalex, I interpreted the intent of the prompt incorrectly. It is now a potential upvote.
I always follow the Booker Prize finalists and winners. The award came on my radar when I read Possession by A.S. Byatt for the first time. I think she won it in around 1990??? I've since read that book many times as it is one of my two all-time favorite books. I've also become a Byatt completist. Thanks for the list.
Mod
The idea here is to celebrate or showcase female authors..."
Possession is one of my all-time favorite books too. I would take it to a desert island because there is so much in it. I have read others by her but none were as good in my opinion. I was a French and English Lit grad student so I really liked all the academics of it.
Charlsa, I see from your shelves that we like a lot of the same books. And you have a quote from Lord Peter on your page - he is my literary crush! I will send you a friend request.
Robin P wrote: "Charlsa wrote: "dalex wrote: "Alicia wrote: "For #1, wouldn’t that be almost all award winning female writers? A large majority of awards are open to men."The idea here is to celebrate or showcas..."
@Robin P., I accepted your friend request. Funny that you noticed the Lord Peter quote as Gaudy Night is my other all-time favorite. I read nearly every year. i've read almost all of Sayers books. I have one or two of her Christian writings. I should make them part of my reading goals for next year.
I met A.S. Byatt at an event years ago. I spoke to her for a minute, and she signed a couple of her books for me. One of them being Possession.
How to avoid KNEE JERK REACTIONS?Does anyone have a trick for avoiding automatic reactions when you see a prompt that you've seen before? I'm realizing that if I liked (or didn't like) a prompt the first time I saw it (last year or this summer), I automatically want to vote the same way now. I know I should take a fresh look at the books and compare them to my tbr. But only some of the prompts come with hearty lists, and my tbr is huge.
I have this nagging feeling that I'm missing something obvious. (It doesn't help that I'm sick and foggy from medication).
I'm going to take some time tomorrow to look through my TBR - to see if there is a commonality in the books that often get forgotten. It might change my view of a current suggestion or trigger a different idea.
Off hand I know that I have some non-fiction books that won't get read without something to create a sense of urgency, or a spike in curiosity (which sometimes happens.)
Charlsa wrote: "An alter ego is a different personality from one's normal personality. For instance, comedians are often quite people or introverts offstage, but onstage their personality completely changes."You're right! I didn't think of it that way. They're also called role dependent behaviors. Attitudes or personality traits that you can emulate because the role or job you are in demands it. It worked for me when I was a professor and did public speaking (it's like being on stage). I was able to act and talk in ways that were uncomfortable in other settings. (I often wonder where that confident energetic person went.)
I took on a whole new set of traits when I became a parent too. (I remember as a kid hiding on the steps listening to my parents when they had a party. It was a little shocking to hear my dad tell a dirty joke.)
Can you think of books that show it? I think A Single Man had some of that.
As a person of color, I'm going to protest the way one of the prompts is being presented and defined. The description for "A book with a character who is marginalized" says that "a happily ever romance with a Black character" wouldn't count.
What?
"Marginalized" isn't a generic term. Marginalized people, by definition, are people subject to discrimination due to a personal characteristic they have. If you're a happy rich Black person in America, you're still marginalized because you belong to a marginalized group in society. You don't just "not count" as marginalized because your life is good. The exception might be if this HEA is set in a country where these Black characters are the majority, like a Nigerian romance novel.
First result on Google for "marginalized":
Marginalized groups include women, people with disabilities, people of color, LGBTQ+ folks, Indigenous peoples, people of a lower socio-economic status and so on. These groups have been historically disempowered and oppressed by influential and discriminatory groups. (Culture Ally)
From European Institute for Gender Equality:
Belonging to such groups or even being perceived to belong to them heightens the risk of inequalities in terms of access to rights and use of services and goods in a variety of domains, such as access to education, employment, health, social and housing assistance, protection against domestic or institutional violence, and justice.
Merriam-Webster's definition of "marginalized": relegated to a marginal position within a society or group.
Obviously we are all free to define prompts as we want and use whatever books we want, but presenting this prompt as one that only counts books where people are unhappy because they belong to a marginalized group (and not books where marginalized people are happy) really doesn't feel right.
I don't think I'm the only POC who feels this way but would love to hear thoughts if the rest of you do agree with the fact that "a happily ever romance with a Black character" would not count as including a marginalized character because it's a romance with a happy ending.
(Also, even without that comment, I would still prefer the prompt to require the marginalized character to be the main character or at least a major character since I can't think of a single non-fantasy book I've read that did not mention in passing at least one person with a marginalized identity).
Irene wrote: "As a person of color, I'm going to protest the way one of the prompts is being presented and defined. The description for "A book with a character who is marginalized" says that "a happily ever r..."
I agree with you about the definition, and I agree it should be the main character. We don't know in advance how realistic or effective the story will be. I suspect that reading about a marginalized character would be a lot more powerful if the reader can feel the character's pain, or see the outcome of the marginalization. That's how we build empathy. In some books, it feels like the race or sexual orientation of a character was changed at the end, perhaps in response to a suggestion by a publisher. It wasn't realistically reflected in the story. But we don't know in advance.
I'm thinking back to when Brokeback Mountain came out, before attitudes about gay marriage tipped from mostly negative to mostly positive. I was concerned about my husband's reaction to a gay relative, and I took him to see the film Brokeback Mountain. It had a very strong effect on him. He was finally able to empathize with the character, and he talked about how awful it would be for X to never be able to get married or live with the person he loved. (Then he had to cover his emotion by joking - why shouldn't he get to suffer along with the rest of us.)
On the other hand, we also saw a film about a happy gay couple arguing about the same things that we do. It sent the message that we're all the same in the ways that count. So that helped too.
NancyJ wrote: "Charlsa wrote: "An alter ego is a different personality from one's normal personality. For instance, comedians are often quite people or introverts offstage, but onstage their personality completel..."I don't know anything about A Single Man as I haven't read or heard much about it, but from the summary I read I wouldn't include it. In my mind, an alter ego is almost pathological in nature. It looks like in this book that it is more of a defensive or protective behavior. BUT, some readers might feel like it would count. We don't have to be inflexible in our interpretations of these prompts.
As far as other books, I was thinking about it earlier today and came up with a few.
The Strange Case of Dr. Jekyl and Mr. Hyde
The Talented Mr. Ripley
I haven't read these but from what I understand about them books they fit the definition.
Shutter Island
American Psycho
Charlsa wrote: "NancyJ wrote: "Charlsa wrote: "An alter ego is a different personality from one's normal personality. For instance, comedians are often quite people or introverts offstage, but onstage their person..."I don't think there needs to a good vs evil distinction. I'm definitely not interested in reading about a Jekyll and Hyde type character. That's a big shift from the comedian example. Extreme difference would make it easier to identify though. My example was def too subtle. So I think I'll skip this one.
Kat wrote: "I suggested a character in education as it covers the child character that has been suggested a couple of times but also opens it out a bit more. There are mysteries set in schools or universities,..."I just read Hello Beautiful and I loved it. It's partly set at Northwestern University, but it revolves around a family, so it's not a perfect fit.
I had two education related challenges in the last year and they weren't enough to push me to pick up The Secret History. The book fits another challenge in October, but I still can't work up any enthusiasm for it.
The Secret History is one on those books I've been planning to read years. Every year there are some places to slot it in and I always end up reading something else.
Kat wrote: "The Secret History is one on those books I've been planning to read years. Every year there are some places to slot it in and I always end up reading something else."I'm glad to see I'm not the only one. I don't know if it's the dark academia vibe, the length, or the ugly cover that keeps me from picking it up. I should at least listen to a preview to see if the audio can pull me in. Half a Yellow Sun is another one that I've planned to read all year, but never started.
Irene wrote: "As a person of color, I'm going to protest the way one of the prompts is being presented and defined."I apologize that I offended you.
My thinking was this (though I’ll readily admit my thinking could well be erroneous):
A novel with a romance between a white person and a Black person that is set in a time period when that was illegal - that is marginalization.
A novel with a romance between a white person and a Black person where the race of the characters could be changed and have virtually no impact on the story - that’s a BIPOC character.
My point was that there can be a big difference between the two prompts. It wasn’t to say that marginalization doesn’t exist just because a person is in circumstances where it’s not apparent.
Mod
Does anyone have a trick for avoiding automatic reactions when you see a prompt that you've seen before? I'm realizing that if I liked (or didn't like) a prompt t..."
Not a problem for me, as I often forget if I had a prompt before or whether I liked it! Unless it was one of a few I struggled with. I am in multiple groups with challenges, so I might have done it somewhere else. And I might now have a book in mind that fits.
I see both sides of this. I assume the main point was to distinguish from the BIOPIC character prompt. Obviously if the book is set in India ( certainly post raj) an Indian is not marginalised because they are Indian although they could be for multiple other reasons but they would still be BIOPIC. In contrast a book about a white homosexual is still in many ways marginalised but not BIOPIC. So there are books that fit either but not the other.
However I think Dalex was making the additional point that the characters experience with marginalisation should be a key point of the book as opposed to being incidental to the story so if a character is mentioned as BIOPIC but it doesn’t seem to effect how they are treated by those around them they are still marginalised but it the story is not discussing the issue. I suppose this comes down to how strictly we interpret the prompt
@Irene I get your point and I think that my issue with the prompt is that it is just so broad. Even if there is a happily ever after or all positive things happen, there is always a mention of their "difference". I read a fair amount of mixed-race romances and while the characters are generally happy, there is always still a point where race does come up. Because in real life, race is still an issue in any mixed-race relationship. It may not affect our overall happiness, but is still something that has to be discussed. Or I always find there is at least one sentence in most books with female characters that discuss their inferiority, weakness, fragility, etc.
While marginalized is a bit broader than BIPOC, I still see marginalization parts in almost all books I read.
NancyJ wrote: "Charlsa wrote: "NancyJ wrote: "Charlsa wrote: "An alter ego is a different personality from one's normal personality. For instance, comedians are often quite people or introverts offstage, but onst..."the examples of a comedian vs. Dr. Jekyl are very different. I think both fit the prompt. If you think A Single Man fits, I'd go for it.
NancyJ wrote: "How to avoid KNEE JERK REACTIONS?Does anyone have a trick for avoiding automatic reactions when you see a prompt that you've seen before? I'm realizing that if I liked (or didn't like) a prompt t..."
LOL I don't avoid it at all.
I feel very comfortable going with my kneejerk reactions and in fact that's usually how I vote. I often have five or six strong kneejerk reactions and then I spend time thinking about how to place the last few votes. Each vote is only one among a hundred or more, so it's not like my knee jerking is going to sway the entire poll. We all have different reactions.
With knee jerk reactions, I know there will be some prompts that I will likely down vote every year hoping they don't make it, just like there are those that I up vote every year hoping this will be the year they finally make it.I also have been known to change an up or down vote when it shows up in a later poll. I have even planned to up vote or down vote a prompt and when I open up the voting link I end up switching.
In the end, there are prompts that I up voted and end up not liking in the challenge and prompts I down voted that I end up liking.
I don’t avoid knee jerk reactions either! We all have different reactions to prompts, and all read for different reasons. And that’s ok! If I have a strong first reaction to certain prompts, I vote accordingly. I don’t want to spend a huge amount of time feeling out prompts and why everyone else thinks I should vote a certain way. Trying to convince others to care about what I’m interested in just blows all the fun out of it for me.
The only issue with knee jerks is when it’s based on a misapprehension I nearly downvoted five books due to a misapprehension about the kind of books involved and I’m glad I let others correct me
Re: Alter EgoI just finished The 7 1/2 Deaths of Evelyn Hardcastle — which was excellent by the way — and I think this would fit the Alter Ego prompt very well!
Thomas wrote: "The only issue with knee jerks is when it’s based on a misapprehension I nearly downvoted five books due to a misapprehension about the kind of books involved and I’m glad I let others correct me"That has happened to me too.
There are some suggestions that are auto upvotes for me (lists! Science! Scary stuff! And important-to-me heavier issues)
And others that are really hard sells.
Having 24 hours between nominations and voting tempers some of the knee jerks, but it also depends on how my week is going!
Thomas wrote: "The only issue with knee jerks is when it’s based on a misapprehension I nearly downvoted five books due to a misapprehension about the kind of books involved and I’m glad I let others correct me"but it doesn't really matter, because my one vote is just a drop in the bucket.
Nadine in NY wrote: "Thomas wrote: "The only issue with knee jerks is when it’s based on a misapprehension I nearly downvoted five books due to a misapprehension about the kind of books involved and I’m glad I let othe..."Well in a sense all our votes are a drop in the bucket but then why bother voting at all?
Thomas wrote: "Nadine in NY wrote: "Thomas wrote: "The only issue with knee jerks is when it’s based on a misapprehension I nearly downvoted five books due to a misapprehension about the kind of books involved an..."Sure, but I'm not being completely nihilistic. I mean that I don't have to agonize over every vote and worry that I'm missing something wonderful, because no matter how carefully I curate my own eight votes, the majority rules and 75% of the time, something I did not vote for makes the list. So I just vote for what strikes me at the time, and I know that it may or may not make it in. I don't worry that I might be leaving out something wonderful, because I know that I am but one vote.
Nadine in NY wrote: "Thomas wrote: "Nadine in NY wrote: "Thomas wrote: "The only issue with knee jerks is when it’s based on a misapprehension I nearly downvoted five books due to a misapprehension about the kind of bo..."Fair enough I tend to mostly go with gut unless like five books someone turns me so I suppose I’m not much different
I have a lot of non fiction in be TBR list but always bypass them as they are not what I am naturally drawn to them as I read mostly for pleasure. suggested this prompt in the hope that I will at least read one of those books. I'm afraid that even if it doesn't get it I won't use it for the prompt of "a book for a prompt that didn't get in".
Around the Year in 52 Books
Books mentioned in this topic
The Velveteen Rabbit (other topics)Gone Girl (other topics)
Pride and Prejudice (other topics)
Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince (other topics)
Emma (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Eowyn Ivey (other topics)Elliot Page (other topics)
Elliot Page (other topics)
1. A book by a female or non-binary author which won an award that's also open to male authors
Upvote. I like this one a lot. I would definitely look for a nonbina..."
I loved listening to Light from Uncommon Stars which I read for a totally different prompt. I would recommend finding a place to slot it even if this prompts doesn't get in.