Space Opera Fans discussion
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Is Space Adventure on the brink of a renaissance?
Jonathan wrote: "Jonathan wrote: "Television is becoming just like mainstream movies. They put a ton of money into comicbook adaptations or shows based on novels..."To an extent, definitely. Although, at the same time I think we're now seeing some of the absolute best writing in the entertainment business, to date, in television. The level of excellence in TV drama, for example, has never been higher than it is now and, in my opinion, the quality of the craft of writing in television is simply phenomenal. The ability of these TV writers to produce such quality work so quickly, week after week after week, is incredible. If you round up some of the top dramas on TV atm, you'll see what I mean. But I do hope you're wrong about it falling into the same stead that mainstream film has gone :( it would be a tragedy.
With The 5th Wave, I'm not so sure that it will boost the kickass sci-fi movement so much as it will continue in the post-apocalyptic vein, as an offshoot of dystopian lit. It's really just another end-of-the-world catastrophe film with a different catalyst and skin. Albeit, a science fiction based catalyst in the form of hostile aliens.
I am afraid you are going to see movies made from books or other properties for a long time. The reason is that those properties have an already existing fanbase that the studios are hoping they can tap into and build on by hopefully attracting other movie goers to see this particular film. Besides they have been making films based on books since practically the beginning of movies. I have seen silent movie versions of Tarzan, Zorro and The Hunchback of Notre Dame so what we see today is purely part of an age old Hollywood practice.
R. Michael wrote: "I hate YA novels. They just seem so smarmy, and even when they aren't talking down to the reader they are still talking down to the reader (on a psychic level if nothing else).I've also gotten re..."
Well I am 60 but I have no problem with young heroes. I loved the Harry Potter novels (which my wife got me into reading when the first movie came out) and have enjoyed the Percy Jackson and Kane Chronicles books from Rick Riordan and I am looking forward to his latest novel in October.I have no problems with older heroes either (starting to reread my Dr. Fu Manchu books). As far as I am concerned a good story is a good story no matter the age of the hero or heroine (I have a soft spot for the Trixie Belden mysteries).
John wrote: "Well I am 60 but I have no problem with young heroes. I loved the Harry Potter novels (which my wife got me into reading when the first movie came out) and have enjoyed the Percy Jackson and..."Agreed! I actually hadn't realised until quite recently but while I was compiling my favourites list I noticed that pretty much every book I have absolutely loved in my life has been one with a strong coming-of-age/bildungsroman element to it. And these stories can exist beyond the YA domain as well. I think it does the genre a disservice to lump it in solely with YA and MG fiction. Take The Goldfinch, Among Others, David Copperfield, Never Let Me Go, The Lives of Girls and Women, and/or Dune as some wonderful examples of bildungsroman geared towards adult readers.
I'd argue that many of the protagonists in a good coming-of-age story aren't merely "bright, shining new heroes and heroines with the world before them" and are certainly, as R. Michael says, "grizzled fucks". Lol. Any decent writer should develop their characters well beyond these two stereotypes though.
what is bildungsroman?I do have to disagree with your praise of Dune, steadfastly I may add. That novel is a streaming pile of poorly written garbage. My opinion of course.
Call me cynical, but I believe Dune would have been packaged and marketed as YA, had it been published in today's market. (And the head hopping distant POV would have been changed to close 3rd person.)Same with Ender's Game. Hollywood did try to make the recent movie adaptation appeal to teenagers.
R. Michael wrote: "I hate YA novels. They just seem so smarmy, and even when they aren't talking down to the reader they are still talking down to the reader (on a psychic level if nothing else)."
I'm just a picky, opinionated reader in general. I like some YA and MG, but a lot of it seems too simplistic and predictable for my tastes. I'm particularly sick of spunky girl heroines who are interchangeable with every other spunky girl heroine. Give me atypical characters. One reason why I'm a fan of Game of Thrones is for the widespread cast of weird characters.
God Emperor of Dune was my favourite of the Dune books. Also one of the weirder sci-fi books out there, even in a genre filled with pretty weird stuff.Bildungsroman is a coming-of-age story that focuses on the young protagonist's moral growth. Probably a less popular genre than it was last century.
Jonathan wrote: "what is bildungsroman?I do have to disagree with your praise of Dune, steadfastly I may add. That novel is a streaming pile of poorly written garbage. My opinion of course."
It’s a german word. We love to connect two word into one. Bildung means education but also formation, and Roman means novel. Together it stands for a novel where the character development of the hero is the focal point.
Abby did you read Half the World? I'm not generally a YA reader, and I really enjoyed the heroine of that novel , so I'd be interested in someone with more experience in YA's take.
Packi wrote: "Jonathan wrote: "what is bildungsroman?I do have to disagree with your praise of Dune, steadfastly I may add. That novel is a streaming pile of poorly written garbage. My opinion of course."
It’..."
Ahh, I love stories with heavy character development, but it is really hard to make a story like be entertaining. I think most come off and just a boring look into a person; but the books with heavy character development that pull off being entertaining...Those are some of the best books written.
I think YA generally has a bad reputation because of all the awful commercial-driven crap that is being published en masse. It's really frustrating because there are some really intelligent, well-written, well-constructed, and technically brilliant novels being written for young adults. You just have to look at the National Book Award, Michael J. Printz Award, Morris Award, Newbery Medal, and for SF&F the Andre Norton Award, to find some of the best works out there. It's just a shame that all the commercial drivel is swamping the market.I'm actually not so sure Dune would be marketed as YA these days, just because a novel has a young adult protagonist does not automatically make it a YA novel. In fact, some publishing/marketing teams have attempted to draw it into the YA realm over the years and it just isn't gelling.
I read Ender's Game in high school (I really wish I could unread it because OSC is abhorrent) and I would have always considered it well within the YA canon. Was it ever otherwise?
Jonathan, I'm sorry that you dislike Dune so much! Regardless, it's still a science fiction masterpiece and it shone a new literary light upon the science fiction genre, which was otherwise commonly seen as pulpy, badly-written, frivolous, and inaccessible to a lot of people for a long time. (Of course, true lovers of science fiction knew better about the genre than that!). Speaking of gateway drugs though...
John wrote: "I don't recall Orcs or wizards in any of Burroughs books, and though the science may not be the same as it is these days it is still science. Besides, faster than light travel is still not possible..."The martian "humans" are civilised, live in cities and have technology, the martian "orcs" are huge green bipeds, evil by nature (though some of them get upgraded to noble savages), live in clanlike societies and behave like maurading hordes when attacking the "humans" and they fight with swords a lot.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barsoom...
If that's not Tolkien before Tolkien, I don't know what is
That's funny. I find Dune to be inaccessible. It drags on and on, and goes into Robert Jordan type detail. Basically, if you're not a huge fan of that style of writing, you're going to be put off by it. A shining example of accessible sci-fi, love him or hate him, is John Scalzi. He's not the only one, but a great example. Writers like him, write the gateway books into a genre. Easy to digest, with governments and societies people can understand without much detail given.
Dune may be epic and a classic (it being old the only reason I believe), but it's hardly accessible.
*sticks Jonathan with a gom jabbar*
Brendan wrote: "*sticks Jonathon with a gom jabbar*":D
Niels wrote: "John wrote: "I don't recall Orcs or wizards in any of Burroughs books, and though the science may not be the same as it is these days it is still science. Besides, faster than light travel is still..."All martians use swords in combat. I have a rough idea of why the mixture of swords and technology but I really need to reread my Barsoom books to be sure. Been a while since I read them. The Green Martians are similiar to some of the barbarian tribes of Earth history. They are not all evil, but in the type of culture they have it is often the more malevolent that rise to power.
Accessibly written ... yup, I think that's a necessary ingredient for it to be a gateway drug type of book. John Scalzi's Old Man's War might fit into that category. Unfortunately, I think he ruined its gateway effect with the sequel, which was far less accessible.There are a number of recent Sci-Fi books which could alllllllmost be gateway drugs. Ready Player One, The Martian, Wool, and Red Rising, for instance. But none of them have hit the mass market in quite that way. And, being the hypercritical book analyzer that I am, I see why they're not quite hitting the popularity heights of something like The Hunger Games or The Dresden Files. Personally, I prefer Wool to The Hunger Games, but I can totally see why the latter is more accessible to new readers than the former.
Brendan, I haven't read Half the World, but I've wanted to try Joe Abercrombie for a while! His Blade Itself series is in my TBR pile. Maybe I'll try his YA books instead.
I agree with Ready Player One and Wool. The Martian has too much science in it. In my opinion, it's the second best book I've ever read, regardless of genre, but the heavy science turns people off.
I think too much info is a hazard with hard science fiction (the type with rivets as we used to say). That's because the writers feel a need to explain everything so that we see it is based upon legitimate extrapolation/science. And yet at one time the top selling SF magazine was Analog (almost typed Astounding there) and it preferred just that type of story.
Jonathan wrote: "I agree with Ready Player One and Wool. The Martian has too much science in it. In my opinion, it's the second best book I've ever read, regardless of genre, but the heavy science turns people off."What turned me off with The Martian was the writing out of the whole micromanaging. I had to skip over pages of "and then I pulled that level, and then I switched that on etc...". Cmon that was boring as hell.
I might be a weirdo in that I didn't particularly like the smart-ass narrator in The Martian. He's writing a journal for posterity, and all he can think to talk about are potatoes and 1970s sitcoms? Yeah, I get that that's supposed to be the humor. I just don't find it funny. The hard science was fine with me. I liked the pacing and suspense. I just would have liked it a lot better if that character was less ... corny ... and more deep/insightful.
I haaaaaaaaated The Martian. With a fiery passion. Omg. If that's the future of science fiction then I'm done. I quit. Red Rising I couldn't stand and dnf'd at about 20%. It was just a very, very thinly veiled amalgamation of successful YA novels dressed up in a science fiction costume, and there is nothing I hate more than derivative crap.
Ready Player One on the other hand was a LOT of fun, thoroughly enjoyed it and I'm a massive gamer so I appreciated the whole paean to retro video games, and its stark vision of the future balanced with the utopian OASIS was really compelling.
Also, John Scalzi is amazing! I definitely agree.
Ready Player One is an amazing book. I was so surprised when reading it. I knew nothing of the story when I read it too. Not many books I take a chance on the cover and title only.The future of sci-fi I think will be AI heavy or in the vein of Ready Player One and Scalzi books.
what I like about The Martian is showing just how genius astronauts are. Those people are insane, crazy smart.
With a book like Ready Player One if you are not into video gaming are you going to enjoy it as much as someone who is.
Probably not, but I think people with even a passing interest in videogames could enjoy that book. The game is a giant part of the story, but there's a very personal underlying factor that resonates with anyone who has met people online, which is likely a huge portion of the population.
Yeah, Ready Player One really pleasantly surprised me. I love when you go into a book not knowing what to expect and then it turns out to be really enjoyable.John, I'm not sure - I'm an avid gamer and I was clued in to all the little details and references that Cline includes, plus the entire narrative revolves around video games. One of my friends who isn't a big gamer said she didn't really like it that much because the references and stuff went over her head. So there's that.
Jonathan, that was the one and only thing about The Martian that I appreciated - the crazy intelligent science. But accurate and detailed science alone does not a good book make.
I hope the future of sci-fi continues in the vein of books like The Long Way to a Small, Angry Planet and Leviathan Wakes/The Expanse series. The wild exploits of ragtag starship crews! (Though this could just be my still deep-seated sadness over Firefly).
The nice thing about Sci-Fi is that it is a very big tent. There is room for anyone, no matter what there tastes in SF, though some people (ie. the late Judith Merril) might prefer certain types of Sci-Fi not be mentioned in public (and hopefully not in private either).
John wrote: "The nice thing about Sci-Fi is that it is a very big tent. There is room for anyone, no matter what there tastes in SF, though some people (ie. the late Judith Merril) might prefer certain types of..."Exactly. There is no right or wrong sci-fi. That's very apparent in the quantity of full time sci-fi authors. I really enjoy how many different ways to write sci-fi there are too. It makes for a diverse library to be entertained by.
Abby wrote: "...There are a number of recent Sci-Fi books which could alllllllmost be gateway drugs. Ready Player One, The Martian, Wool, and Red Rising, for instance..."To my shame, of those mentioned I've read just Wool (omnibus), which I liked but not enough to seek out the other books (the story was good but the setting never convinced). 'Almost' a gateway sci-fi novel is probably right. If pushed I'd probably recommend Alastair Reynolds.
I only read the first Wool, not the omnibus, and have zero inclination to ever read something else by that guy, but enough people have, I think, to label that series as a gateway.
The Player of Games and Hyperion must be somewhere on top of the gateway scifi list. Nothing really over the top scientifically with great ambience and interesting characters.
*Thinks*Lets see: What sci fi was my gateway drug....
It was either On Basilisk Station or Dune...I read both when I was 13 or 14?
Re-reading Dune esp after college helped me understand things I didn't pick up the first time through.
Edit: I cannot spell without having 3 cups of coffee. Woohoo!
It has been so long ago that I am not sure what my first SF was. Could have been the Tom Swift, Jr books or Voyage to the Mushroom Planet. For me SF was just another adventure story.
I haven't read The Player of Games, but I wouldn't consider Hyperion to be an accessible read. It's very literary. I enjoyed it, but I can't see masses of teenagers and the general public going for it. I think that a gateway SFF book for SFF-inclined people is different than a gateway SFF book for the general public.
If you're already sort of a geek, and your friends in school are geeky, then something like Dune or Hyperion or Ready Player One would probably be enough of a good experience to set you on the path.
But if you're not geekily inclined, then books like that might turn you off to SFF. In that case, then something like The Hunger Games is a better starter drug.
Old Man's War is actually considered a "genre gateway" book by publishers. Hunger Games not so much, because it's not steeped in any one particular genre. Harry Potter is another genre gateway. Alex Ross series for thriller. Basically the majority of very great selling books are genre gateways.
John wrote: "It has been so long ago that I am not sure what my first SF was. Could have been the Tom Swift, Jr books or Voyage to the Mushroom Planet. For me SF was just another adventure story."Yeah I didn’t mean for children. Those are obviously too deep. Some military scifi should do the trick though.
My first sci-fi book ever was Where the Ships Die by William C. Dietz. Read it on a family vacation to Canada Creek, a town in northern Michigan.Revelation Space was the second sci-fi novel I read, a few years after Where the Ships Die, and my gateway novel to the genre.
I can't remember the first SF novel I ever read...hmmmmm.
Dune could never be a YA novel, it features rampant _drug use_ (*gasp* *clutch pearls*)! Which is part of why I don't like YA as a class. YA novels can't have sex, drugs or rock & roll "gratuitous"/explicit violence.
YA novels are geared towards preteens, giving them a hero figure / role model of sorts. It's bad form to encourage drug use and alcohol drinking.
The age group YA is aimed at doesn't even know what rock 'n' roll is
R. Michael wrote: "Dune could never be a YA novel, it features rampant _drug use_ (*gasp* *clutch pearls*)! Which is part of why I don't like YA as a class. YA novels can't have sex, drugs or rock & roll "gratuitous"..."The age group YA books are aimed at doesn't even know what rock'n'roll is.
Says who? I was listening to rock music when I was 10.
YA novels can't have sex, drugs or rock & roll "gratuitous"/explicit violence. Not so. Most of the YA books I've read have a ton of drug use, albeit in a dystopia. The House of the Scorpion and The Girl Who Could Fly are chock full of drugs. Oh, wait, those are Middle Grade. But for YA, The Uglies series is all about happy drugs and plastic surgery run amok.
They also have quite a lot of violence, although the YA style doesn't go into extremely graphic descriptions.
As for rock-n-roll ... hey, they're books. :-D
And yeah, I suspect most teenagers aren't into Billy Joel or The Rolling Stones, or any bands with members old enough to be their grandparents.
The Rolling Stones are definitely rock'n'roll but Billy Joel to me is more pop-rock.
John wrote: "The Rolling Stones are definitely rock'n'roll but Billy Joel to me is more pop-rock."I think that Billy heard that a lot back in the day and I always liked his response...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eAQa...
Nowadays it is a moot point as all the rock music of those days is referred to as classic rock.
John wrote: "The Rolling Stones are definitely rock'n'roll but Billy Joel to me is more pop-rock."The Rolling Stones and Billy Joel are Adult Soft-Rock.
Actually, Middle-Grade (MG) novels are geared towards preteens. Young Adult novels are generally geared towards high school ages (15+), and the novels with mass appeal tend to attract all ages. The best YA books tackle huge issues, not just sex, drugs & rock 'n' roll but sexuality, gender, violence and abuse, family issues, terminal illness, death, environmental catastrophe, politics, religion and all things in-between. The only big factors that really differentiate a YA novel from commercial and literary adult novels is voice, the age of the protagonist, and length of the novel.
Don't be so quick to dismiss the entire YA genre based on assumptions. Some of the best writers in the world today are writing for young adults and children.
Jonathan wrote: "John wrote: "The Rolling Stones are definitely rock'n'roll but Billy Joel to me is more pop-rock."The Rolling Stones and Billy Joel are Adult Soft-Rock."
"Let's Spend The Night Together" or "Street Fightin' Man" are adult soft rock. LOL
Space Opera Fans
Books mentioned in this topic
Trial by Fire (other topics)The Windup Girl (other topics)
The City & the City (other topics)
The Martian (other topics)
Where the Ships Die (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
William C. Dietz (other topics)Susan Kaye Quinn (other topics)
Marion Zimmer Bradley (other topics)
Television is becoming just like mainstream movies. They put a ton of money into comicbook adaptations or shows based on novels or yet another Friends/CSI/Law and Order regurgitation.
It'd be cool if The 5th Wave turned out to be a kick-ass sci-fi movie, but I'm sure it won't. Hopefully the person who wrote it got a good deal when the rights were sold.