INTER-SERVICE RIVALRY

[Samuel , Director]

Yes, even this is a convention. As many of you would know, our law enforcement/military/intelligence services, when not hunting down the people who try to hurt us, do like to take pot-shots at each other. Office politics is a way to gain influence and budget appropriations, to the detriment of those competing for the same thing. Spy fiction has always reflected this, but as the intelligence business has become more politicized in the Post 9/11 era, work in the genre features this trope more often. From the feuds between the CIA and D.O.D over counter-terrorism responsibilities to the legendary turf wars between the components of the KGB and the GRU, inter-service rivalry is a brilliant, timeless way to create drama, complications and hell for fictional spies and soldiers.

[Samuel , Director]

So, to kick things off.

1) What are some of the military/spy thrillers you may have read where inter-service rivalry has come into play?

2) Did serious problems occur during the incidents and how problematic/disastrous was it for those engaged in pursuing said rivalry?

3) Would you agree with the statement that "inter-service rivalry is a timeless convention that will never become stale?"

That's all the questions for now. More to follow later.

[Samuel , Director]

I'll start with this which revolves around a particularly brutal period of office politics between MI5 and the SIS. After the SIS sends one of its paramilitary officers to Yemen to conduct a hit, an official at MI5 decides to take advantage of the particularly high profile nature of the killing and the fact that Saudi Arabia, the victim's country of origin knows Britain is responsible in order to score points and knock the SIS operations department down a few notches. So he does this by conducting a black op to quietly rendition the paramilitary officer and ship her to Saudi Arabia. Unfortunately for him and his subordinates, said paramilitary officer catches on, goes through the MI5 people like a bullet through paper and escapes the country, putting her safely out of MI5's jurisdiction.

[Samuel , Director]

One thing I recall from Brad Thor's books is his use of the disagreements between the CIA and America's armed services. When a CIA officer and an elite special forces operator get together in a Scott Harvath book, they almost never hit it off well initially.

Take Path Of The Assassin, one of the earlier books (where Harvath was a far more unpleasant and arrogant then he was in the most recent entries). He's forced to work together with a CIA Special Activities Division officer, one who failed to get into SEALS and does not like Harvath at all. And since Harvath is still in his "singleton stage" with the tendency to go off and do a more direct approach, this causes a lot of grief with the Special Activities Division officer who prefers team based plans.

Then we have an inversion in "Act Of War" with a lone CIA officer dropping into the DPRK with a SEAL team. Despite pulling his weight and helping out immeasurably, the SEAL team leader doesn't like the fact he had to replace one of the original team members with the intelligence officer. This dislike eventually climaxes in a heated argument over a particularly dicey moral choice that they're forced to make. Thankfully, in the end it works out well for all of them, with the inter-service rivalry ultimately not proving too detrimental to the success of the mission.

[Jack]

In Amy Lynn Golden Angel, available in about four weeks. They, Amy, a trainee and assassin CIA Officer Tatiana Aziz, assault a Cartel compound with a large contingent of Delta. They get along just fine. Even a little comic relief.

[Samuel , Director]

Alex Berenson's John Wells series. The entry "The Midnight House" focused on the CIA's disputes with the ONI. The plot concerns the attempts by the latter to keep a problem under wraps. And the attempts by the former to let the entire world find out about that problem.

[Samuel , Director]

Samuel wrote: "Yes, even this is a convention. As many of you would know, our law enforcement/military/intelligence services, when not hunting down the people who try to hurt us, do like to take pot-shots at each..."

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Mr Clancy used a real life example in this book to great effect. Back in the day the GRU and the KGB (now FSB and SVR) loathed each other. The CIA's asset, who works for the GRU manages to get breathing room from the KGB hunters due to his colleagues at GRU unintentionally throwing spanners in the works.

[Feliks]

1) What are some of the military/spy thrillers you may have read where inter-service rivalry has come into play?

Easy to nominate a LeCarre classic here: The Looking Glass War

..for that is what the book is all about. This issue in all its dimensions is gently but firmly explored; as 'military espionage' after WWII gradually lost ground to counter-espionage in the UK. As usual, LeCarre treats everything with the greatest subtlety and delicacy.

Len Deighton also probes these issues; in 'Spy Story' for one; and sprinkled throughout his other tales. Really, I've found it in dozens of spy novels; you're right in that it is a familiar element. But I object to its being called a 'convention'; it is 'real life' (as I can attest from my own experience).

2) Did serious problems occur during the incidents and how problematic/disastrous was it for those engaged in pursuing said rivalry?

Such rivalries can kill agents. They're a form of blindness. In LeCarre, the 'Looking-Glass' rivalry is an important aspect of post-war Britain which LeCarre found fruitful for entertainment purposes, but it also needed to be illuminated as well, for anyone simply interested in political science.

3) Would you agree with the statement that "inter-service rivalry is a timeless convention that will never become stale?"

Yes, I've seen it first-hand. Its absurd; pathetic, Kafka-esque.

[[deleted user]]

I believe that it is even worse now, since the creation of the Department of Homeland Security (DHS), which kind of invaded the territory of both the FBI and of the CIA. The War on Terrorism has truly mixed the cards by involving too many intelligence and security agencies who keep refusing to cooperate togeter in order to keep or enlarge their piece of the pie in terms of federal budgets. However, this certainly makes for great fodder for us writers. Pissing contests between CIA field agents and DHS or DIA agents make for fun writing!

[Samuel , Director]

Feliks wrote: "1) What are some of the military/spy thrillers you may have read where inter-service rivalry has come into play?

Easy to nominate a LeCarre classic here: The Looking Glass War
[bookco..."

Things that happen in real life can also become tropes and conventions of the genre.
I mean no disrespect and did not intend to trivialize them, on the contrary, I get that inter-service rivalry is a serious matter, especially if it ends up going too far at the wrong moment.

[Samuel , Director]

And lets not forget the cherry on top. The ODNI which is supposed to play puppet master to the whole alphabet soup. But can't due to the strings that got attached when it was being set up.
Read a lovely non fiction book recently. Basically the concise history of Post 9/11 inter-service rivalry, part of it had a section on how DCI Panetta allegedly screwed over the DNI through using his personal access to President Obama to slowly lock the DNI out.
The result? Won him the loyalty of Langley.

[Samuel , Director]

Samuel wrote: "And lets not forget the cherry on top. The ODNI which is supposed to play puppet master to the whole alphabet soup. But can't due to the strings that got attached when it was being set up.
Read a ..."


Creator of the counter-terrorist sub-genre Vince Flynn had a crack at the ODNI in his sixth book, published when the ODNI was founded. Considering the legion of friends/sources he had who either work/worked at Langley, his views aren't charitable to say the least.

[Jack]

In my first Novel, Amy Lynn, the protagonist becomes a Navy Corpsman and after being thrown out of Balboa Hospital for fighting she ends up in FMSS. Being a sailor and a female she endures a certain amount of hazing but eventually becomes a Doc. The Marines in a Platoon love very few things more than they love their Doc.

[Samuel , Director]

Jack wrote: "In my first Novel, Amy Lynn, the protagonist becomes a Navy Corpsman and after being thrown out of Balboa Hospital for fighting she ends up in FMSS. Being a sailor and a female she endures a certai..."

Very nice, a subverted trope. Playing a convention/plot device straight sometimes isn't the most fun. Sometimes it's better to shake things up.

[[deleted user]]

I think that the ultimate example of inter-service rivalry causing a major disaster was the Iranian hostages rescue mission attempt. Every service and their dogs insisted in having a part in it, but they didn't coordinate properly, which each sub-element of the mission (helicopter force, tanker force, assault force, desert point element, etc) having their own commander and decisions having to be taken 'in consultation with each other', board meeting-like. That mess was condemned to fail badly nearly from the start. Incredibly, I am not aware that any of the planners at the Pentagon (the ultimate nest of inter-service rivalry) paid for the broken pots. If the operation to kill Osama Bin Laden in Pakistan would have been organized the same way as the Iran hostage rescue op, then the U.S.A. would have ended again with eggs on its face. The U.S.A. doesn't need such nonsense, except in fiction novels, of course!

[[deleted user]]

About the Iranian hostage rescue operation in 1979, does anyone know if someone wrote a book about how that mission was screwed up? If there was one, I would love to read it one fine day, especially if it also covers the aftermath in terms of how the mistakes were studied/addressed.

[Feliks]

Yes. Ken Follett, 'On Wings of Eagles' I believe.

Classic American screw-up. Shocking? It shouldnt be. SHAEF over-planning and bean-counting nearly quashed the Normandy landings. Patton saved the allied landings, no one else.

[Samuel , Director]

Michel wrote: "About the Iranian hostage rescue operation in 1979, does anyone know if someone wrote a book about how that mission was screwed up? If there was one, I would love to read it one fine day, especial..."

Book by a USAF colonel who was among the planners and the guy on the ground. Touches on the problems that occurred when The Company and The Pentagon had with the intelligence gathering side of the operation, problems that burned them horribly when things kicked off.
http://www.amazon.com/The-Guts-Try-On...

[Samuel , Director]

Michel wrote: "About the Iranian hostage rescue operation in 1979, does anyone know if someone wrote a book about how that mission was screwed up? If there was one, I would love to read it one fine day, especial..."

Colonel Charlie Beckwith did devote a section of his memoir to Eagle Claw. And he was one of the people who got skewered in the aftermath.

http://www.amazon.com/Delta-Force-Mil...

[Samuel , Director]

Michel wrote: "About the Iranian hostage rescue operation in 1979, does anyone know if someone wrote a book about how that mission was screwed up? If there was one, I would love to read it one fine day, especial..."

And last but not least, we have a military thriller novel by one of the grandfathers of contemporary British military fiction. This is his second book. Heavily inspired by Eagle Claw along with the fact that four of the foreigners taken hostage in 1970's Iran were British nationals.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Fifth-Hostage...

[Samuel , Director]

Michel wrote: "About the Iranian hostage rescue operation in 1979, does anyone know if someone wrote a book about how that mission was screwed up? If there was one, I would love to read it one fine day, especial..."

The author was more than kind enough to give a behind the scenes look at his book.
http://terencestrong.co.uk/the-fifth-...

[[deleted user]]

Thank you both, Samuel and Feliks, for your book suggestions. I think that I will get myself 'THE GUTS TO TRY', by Col Kyle, as it is the one most relevant directly to Op Eagle Claw.

[Michael]

This thread seems to have gone dormant, so perhaps I can kick-start it again. This is actually a topic I'm quite curious about.

From my book:

'Actually the term “intelligence community” is somewhat ironic as it’s hard to view it as anything close to a real community. A group of angry two year-olds would be a more accurate picture of the relationships within this “community”.'

That was based on my own experiences in working with the intelligence community from 1968 through 1990. Has it changed much today? I know a major effort was put into place post-9/11 to break down barriers and impose more of a team spirit throughout the component organizations. Has it improved the situation in any way? Anyone have first-hand knowledge about this effort?