What are we reading? 28/08/2023

[scarletnoir]

AB76 wrote: "we completely differ on these novels then hahaha!
maybe war novels arent your thing?..."

Still recovering from a 17h journey to France - but have 3 weeks here to enjoy it.

I remain mystified as to how any modern reader can enjoy Schweik... you don't like 'Mrs Brown's Boys' by any chance? ;-) That has a similar level of 'subtlety'.

As for war stories - no, I don't seek them out but have read a fair number over the years. Best of the lot: All Quiet on the Western Front by Erich Maria Remarque... I re-read that one. Some other likes: 'Birdsong' by Sebastian Faulks; 'Catch-22' by Joseph Heller; 'The Naked and the Dead' by Norman Mailer (read long ago, so...?); and the naughtily titled 'Her Privates We' by Herbert Manning (also ages ago).

In non-fiction, I'd recommend 'Memoirs of a fox-hunting man' by Siegfried Sassoon and 'Dispatches' by Michael Herr - both brilliant.

I am assuming that by 'war stories' you are specifically referring to tales where actual combat features in a significant way? Because I have read a huge number of books where war is important to the events unfolding without combat being a central feature, from Sartre's 'Roads to Freedom' trilogy to Philip Kerr's German 'tec Bernie Gunther at work during the Nazi period and David Downing's Nazi-era espionage series from 'Zoo Station' onwards.

I may add to the list when I wake up properly!

[[deleted user]]

A recent statistic caught my eye: there were more (state school) students sitting Sociology A-Level this year than French, German, Physics and Music combined. If it had been Computer Science rather than Sociology I wouldn’t have minded, as the UK needs that talent. But it is dismaying to see those precise and demanding (and wonderful) subjects losing ground to what, one fears, is a mass of unverifiable theories and questionable statistics. If I’m wrong, and Sociology today is the home of rigour and challenging argument, I’d be glad to be put right. At least it indicates a laudable desire to understand modern society.

[[deleted user]]

scarletnoir wrote: "AB76 wrote: "we completely differ on these novels then hahaha! maybe war novels arent your thing?..."

Still recovering from a 17h journey to France..."

I’m with Scarlet on most of those – especially All Quiet, and the transfixing Despatches. I found Good Soldier Schweik very amusing for a stretch but the amusement faded. Ditto, I have to say, with Catch-22. I also found myself not all that impressed by the Norman Mailer, because to my mind it was still too clearly his own direct experience of a single episode and not successfully extended (at least, that’s how it sticks in my memory). Away from the battle front but still battle-oriented, I found Regeneration deeply satisfying, and (non-fiction) Testament of Youth is, I think, the saddest book I ever read.

[Robert]

scarletnoir wrote: "AB76 wrote: "we completely differ on these novels then hahaha!
maybe war novels arent your thing?..."

Still recovering from a 17h journey to France - but have 3 weeks here to enjoy it.

I remain m..."

Another good book of war stories: Brazen Chariots by Crisp describes the war in the Western Desert from a tank commander's viewpoint. As you'd expect from the author's name, the book is dry and salty....

[scarletnoir]

Russell wrote: "scarletnoir wrote: "AB76 wrote: "we completely differ on these novels then hahaha! maybe war novels arent your thing?..."

Still recovering from a 17h journey to France..."

I’m with Scarlet on mos..."

I have no clear recollection of the Mailer, but it leaves me with the impression of a certain visceral power in the storytelling... but I must have read it 50 years ago. 'Catch-22' I like for the crazy logic, though Heller's other book Something Happened is so depressing I'd advise anyone against it.

I have no strong feelings about sociology (don't know enough about it as a discipline), but certainly share your regret at the reduced numbers studying foreign languages. Madame taught French for many years, and managed to make it so interesting that she often had bigger 'A' level groups than another school in the next town, which had 3 or 4 times as many pupils. And, of course, I learned it myself as an adult when I moved to France after meeting her! Learning about another culture opens the mind; Brexit closes it.

[AB76]

Russell wrote: "Does anyone know a novel about the Spanish Civil War called The Soldiers of Salamis by Javier Cercas (2001)? It is mentioned with strong approval at the end of the Very Short Introduction to the Wa..."

great novel Russ, i read it when it came out and was very impressed, it was a time where Franco era novels were quite common from spanish writers like Marse and Rivas. Cercas is well worth reading.

[AB76]

scarletnoir wrote: "AB76 wrote: "we completely differ on these novels then hahaha!
maybe war novels arent your thing?..."

Still recovering from a 17h journey to France - but have 3 weeks here to enjoy it.

I remain m..."

Despatches remains the best Vietnam era non-fiction i have read

[AB76]

Warm and pleasent in the Shires, could be 28c by midweek, though september sun is always gentler and the shortening days lessen the impact of a July heatwave

Started Sons and Lovers by DH Lawrence and already impressed by the sense of place, the opening set in summery victorian Nottinghamshire, with the wakes and fairs celebrations for the miners. The style interests me too, rather lighter than i remembered from student days

I also started The Vegetarian by Han Kang, am already a fan of hers but picked this up on a chance waterstones browse. Its odd and dark but fits in with the best of the East Asian novels of the last decade, mostly by women that are haunting, unsettling and fascinating (just spotted that the translation by Deborah Smith has been controversial with many feeling the Kang style has been poeticised and other errors...interesting)

[AB76]

Russell wrote: "Au Bon Beurre: Scènes de la vie sous l’occupation – Jean Dutourd (trans. as Vi>The Best Butter)

A lively and horribly plausible picture of what it must have been like among the defeated French. Th..."

such a grim period for the French, those four years of submission, where the state was subverted and violated, where the struggling Third Republic fell into a void. If you havent read it, i recommend France's New Deal: From the Thirties to the Postwar Era , it covers the period roughly from 1935 to 1944, from so many different angles, a really interesting and varied analysis of that era and the fact that so much of the policies/ideas of this period actually continued into the Fourth Republic era. a controversial continuity

[Robert]

AB76 wrote: "Russell wrote: "Au Bon Beurre: Scènes de la vie sous l’occupation – Jean Dutourd (trans. as Vi>The Best Butter)

A lively and horribly plausible picture of what it must have been like among the def..."

Paxton's Vichy France makes the same point-- there was much continuity between the regulation of the Vichy years and that of the Fourth Republic-- and beyond!

[AB76]

Robert wrote: "AB76 wrote: "Russell wrote: "Au Bon Beurre: Scènes de la vie sous l’occupation – Jean Dutourd (trans. as Vi>The Best Butter)

A lively and horribly plausible picture of what it must have been like ..."

i havent read enough Paxton, thanks for the reminder Robert....adding him to my list!

[Robert]

Russell wrote: "Au Bon Beurre: Scènes de la vie sous l’occupation – Jean Dutourd (trans. as Vi>The Best Butter)

A lively and horribly plausible picture of what it must have been like among the defeated French. Th..."

Another novel of wartime France: From Among the Dead [Vertigo] by Boileau and Narcejac. A detective investigation is swept away by the German advance of June 1940, which left different regions of France isolated from each other. The extent of the disruption was remarkable... but, after the Liberation, people flocked to cinemas. Newsreels might show the faces of people one remembered, in unexpected areas of France....
Hitchcock was fascinated by the story, and adapted it for his "Vertigo."

[AB76]

A sobering and sad long article in the NYRB by Laurence Tribe on the Supreme Court made me quite angry, its appalling that even if the serial criminal Donald J Trump is never elected again, that his appointment of three right wing, regressive, relatively young judges to the SC for life will damage the USA for decades after he rolls off his mortal coil.

I have been always critical of the supposed unique nature and strength of american democracy, while admiring the vision of the founding fathers, the New Deal era and the ideas that define any prospect of real democracy. It seems however that a vast, complicated nation has fallen into a kind of imperial decay which will continue regardless of who is elected President.

Biden has done a good job in his three years so far but has seen the SC destroy basic rights for women with the prospect of a lot more to come. Tribe is sensibly concerned that a right wing authoritarian president with the SC in hock to his ideas would be a very dangerous thing indeed. I wish, i truly wish, i could look at the conservative judges and see objective, decent legal minds but instead i see personal beliefs, agendas and religion clouding their judgement, which in 2023 is shocking and deeply sad.

Unless of course, i accept corruption and favours have been part of the SC for over 200 years, i dont like to think like that but that could be the reality behind it all.

[AB76]

Robert wrote: "Russell wrote: "Au Bon Beurre: Scènes de la vie sous l’occupation – Jean Dutourd (trans. as Vi>The Best Butter)

A lively and horribly plausible picture of what it must have been like among the def..."

making a note of that now!

[Robert]

I just had another of my World War II dreams. It was set inside a gigantic German bomber. There were two lines in the story-- the Germans keeping security over its flights, and the efforts of Allied prisoners of war, working as crew for the plane, to find a secret as to its fuel. A sergeant attempts to take a sample of fuel, available only in flight, and smuggle it out. There were several variants of this, some clear liquid siphoned into a vial hidden under the sergeant's clothes.

[Robert]

AB76 wrote: "Robert wrote: "AB76 wrote: "Russell wrote: "Au Bon Beurre: Scènes de la vie sous l’occupation – Jean Dutourd (trans. as Vi>The Best Butter)

A lively and horribly plausible picture of what it must ..."

Another good book on the period-- and its aftermath-- is Henri Rousso's The Vichy Syndrome. For four years, France was a dictatorship. De Gaulle papered over these deep divisions as best he could. Yet memories flared up, like a fever one had never quite shaken...

[Bill]

scarletnoir wrote: "I remain mystified as to how any modern reader can enjoy Schweik... you don't like 'Mrs Brown's Boys' by any chance? ;-) That has a similar level of 'subtlety'."

I enjoyed The Good Soldier Schweik quite a bit, more so than The Good Soldier, which preference may disqualify me as a "modern reader". I have no idea who / what "Mrs Brown's Boys" are / is.

(I note that Joseph Heller included Schweik as a character in his Catch-22 sequel, Closing Time; also that Hašek's book was adapted into an opera by Robert Kurka, libretto by Lewis Allen.)

[AB76]

Bill wrote: "scarletnoir wrote: "I remain mystified as to how any modern reader can enjoy Schweik... you don't like 'Mrs Brown's Boys' by any chance? ;-) That has a similar level of 'subtlety'."

I enjoyed [boo..."

i loathed The Good Soldier. My grandfather was a huge fan of Parades End that was adapted into a very good tv series about a decade after his death

[Bill]

AB76 wrote: "i loathed The Good Soldier. My grandfather was a huge fan of Parades End that was adapted into a very good tv series about a decade after his death"

I don't think Parade's End has been mentioned among the WWI books in this thread. I liked it pretty well, though I recall it as more of a personal story than a book about The War.

I read a few books on Vietnam in the decade after the US withdrawal. (I was just about a year too young to have run the risk of being caught up in it.) I remember not caring much for Dispatches, but really liked a less celebrated anthology of first-hand accounts, Nam: The Vietnam War in the Words of the Men and Women Who Fought There, which, as I recall, was structured like a tour of duty, beginning with enlisting or being drafted and ending with return to the US and discharge.

[AB76]

Bill wrote: "AB76 wrote: "i loathed The Good Soldier. My grandfather was a huge fan of Parades End that was adapted into a very good tv series about a decade after his death"

I don't think [book:Parade's End|7..."

i havent read any of the O'Brien Nam novels but i thought Matterhorn by Karl Marlantes was just brilliant, read it on my commute a decade ago, which isnt easy reading time(noise, warmth, lack of space) and that long novel flew by.

Both Andreyev and Soseki wrote novels of the Russo-Japanese War which while not immersed in much fighting captured the effect of the war on its participants and nations.

I should also mention Foresters The General which is hugely under-rated about WW1

[Bill]

AB76 wrote: "i havent read any of the O'Brien Nam novels"

At the time I read the aforementioned books on 'Nam, I also tried reading O'Brien's debut, Going After Cacciato, which had won a major US literary prize. As I recall, I just made it a few pages into the novel before totally losing interest; though I'm pretty much a stick-with-it kind of reader, something about those opening pages seemed so unpromising, I felt no desire to push myself onward.

[AB76]

Bill wrote: "AB76 wrote: "i havent read any of the O'Brien Nam novels"

At the time I read the aforementioned books on 'Nam, I also tried reading O'Brien's debut, Going After Cacciato, which had w..."

some novels can do that to you.Stylistically i sometimes find myself finding an opening section jars and i'm done with reading but it seems to have diminished somewhat with age. But then i'm reading a lot of different, more varied novels than i did 20 years ago and possibly more patient

[scarletnoir]

Bill wrote: "I enjoyed The Good Soldier Schweik quite a bit, more so than The Good Soldier, which preference may disqualify me as a "modern reader". I have no idea who / what "Mrs Brown's Boys" are / is."

'Mrs Brown's Boys' is a terrible (and very popular) TV comedy in the UK; the 'joke' is that Mrs Brown is played by a man who makes no pretence to be a woman - ie he is not a female impersonator. He is just a man in women's clothing. I managed to last 5 minutes, mainly because I could not believe that anything that bad was on the screen...

'Schewik' has one joke - he is forever dossing out of soldiering by one ruse or another. I found it wearing after 50 pages or so - and I'm pretty sure the social attitudes on display were 'questionable' but really don't want to revisit to confirm, so put that there with a qualification... I persevered until p 100 or so in the hope it would get better.

It didn't.

[scarletnoir]

AB76 wrote: "Warm and pleasent in the Shires, could be 28c by midweek, though september sun is always gentler and the shortening days lessen the impact of a July heatwave

Started Sons and Lovers by DH Lawrence..."

I read that a long time ago, and preferred it to the more famous 'Lady Chatterley...'

As for 'The Vegetarian' - I quite enjoyed the start but strongly disliked the finish. (I'm a veggie!)

[AB76]

scarletnoir wrote: "AB76 wrote: "Warm and pleasent in the Shires, could be 28c by midweek, though september sun is always gentler and the shortening days lessen the impact of a July heatwave

Started Sons and Lovers b..."

i'm not a veggie, so will be interesting what i make of the finish!

[AB76]

Over on the G, a poster mentioned the triology of novels that Hungarian author Miklos Banffy wrote about the last decades of the Hapsburg empire

I have been tardy and only read the first novel but was impressed by its political focus on the very important Hungarian parliament, which became even more influential during the war as it was not totally in hoc with the Imperial outlook on the war for funding and conscription, especially of Hungarians.

NB. The first book covers the period before the war

[Bill]

scarletnoir wrote: "'Schewik' has one joke - he is forever dossing out of soldiering by one ruse or another. I found it wearing after 50 pages or so"

I would say that what you refer to as the “one joke” is more like the frame for rather than the point of the narrative. In this it is, I assume, much like the murder investigations that give shape to the individual episodes in the mystery series that are so popular with you and many of the contributors here. The subject in Schweik is less the title character than those he interacts with.

One of my favorite episodes in the novel is one in which Schweik is only peripherally involved: a sequence a SNAFUs, due to both incompetence and well-meaning misunderstanding, after a Czech officer decides to implement a system for encrypting communications that he has learned in a training course.

Is “Mrs Brown’s Boys” meant as some kind of commentary on transgenderism? I have to admit, in general, I prefer to watch TV comedy series rather than drama series, though I do like drama anthology shows like Alfred Hitchcock Presents.

[AB76]

Bill wrote: "scarletnoir wrote: "'Schewik' has one joke - he is forever dossing out of soldiering by one ruse or another. I found it wearing after 50 pages or so"

I would say that what you refer to as the “one..."

i totally agree Bill, that is the genius of the novel and why i enjoyed it so much. It was an experience that drew me further into the Austro-Hungarian world, its peoples and its cultures, long forgotten for so many

[AB76]

i have noticed no presence here from Georg for a while, hope all is well in Germany and its simply time being spent travelling and having fun

[MK]

Thanks, AB. I've been meaning to ask about Georg, too.

Note--writing from phone as internet still down.

[Gpfr]

I've read the 2 Michael Innes books I picked up in Wales:

There Came Both Mist And Snow Dating from 1940, it's one of the earlier books in the Appleby series.
A family is meeting for Christmas. Appleby arrives as a dinner guest only to be greeted with a crime. Enjoyable even if some most extraordinary (and unbelievable!) behaviour by Appleby.

Hare Sitting Up, a later book: biological warfare, a missing scientist, prepschools, birdwatchers, identical twins ... Enjoyable too.

I've just finished Armistead Maupin's Significant Others, one of the Tales of the City series, which I picked up from a book box and have put back for somebody else.

Now I'm reading the latest in Peter Lovesey's Peter Diamond crime series, Showstopper set in and around Bath, Is a TV show jinxed?

And also Winters in the World: A Journey through the Anglo-Saxon Year, taking me back to my university days, Beowulf, Bede, Old English poetry ...

[Gpfr]

AB76 wrote: "i have noticed no presence here from Georg for a while, hope all is well ..."

I've seen comments by her on The G.

[Bill]

AB76 wrote: "the Austro-Hungarian world, its peoples and its cultures, long forgotten for so many"

Certainly not in the concert hall, where the repertoire has been, and to some extent still is, dominated by Austria-Hungary, with composers from Haydn through Mahler, including Hungarians like Liszt and Czech/Bohemians like Dvořák and Smetana.

I’ve wondered how much my musical taste was unconsciously formed by my childhood devotion to the 1930s horror films from Universal – I was always scouring the TV schedule in the hope that one would turn up. Re-viewing them as an adult I was struck how, both in the mise en scène and the soundtrack, they seemed to take place in a sort of timeless version of the Austro-Hungarian empire.

[AB76]

MK wrote: "Thanks, AB. I've been meaning to ask about Georg, too.

Note--writing from phone as internet still down."

i have the opposite, internet ok but landline down as BT transferred me to digivoice but my adapter is late by post...wonderful and i also have to clear out my front room for a plaster/damp check job, which is packed with books...joy!

[AB76]

Bill wrote: "AB76 wrote: "the Austro-Hungarian world, its peoples and its cultures, long forgotten for so many"

Certainly not in the concert hall, where the repertoire has been, and to some extent still is, do..."

Music, art and literature from the empire has survived well, though i wonder how much due to the nationalities of the authors, rather than as parts of the empire. Nationalism since the 1990s will have found new life for artists, composers and authors who were minorities in that empire

[AB76]

I'm intrigued by the english prose of the 1910-1920 period where i feel a balance was achieved between the wonderfully ornate sentence structures of the victorian greats and the more modernist authors coming through.

So far the style of Sons and Lovers by DH Lawrence reminds me so much of Victory by Joseph Conrad. It lies in the way dialogue and narrative combine in deceptively light ways to generate momemtum and to create a feeling.

To be specific, the menace of the interlopers in Victory remains for me a masterpiece in quiet, chilling character development, the sheer menace and violence hinted at in the arrival of new faces on a serene canvas. With Lawrence its the violence and rows between the Morels, the drunken, limited male energy and the powerful will and contention of the female, beyond the physical difference and the manner of the times

[Gpfr]

Thinking about Austria, WWII, etc., I enjoyed Sarah Gainham's novels.

the trilogy: Night Falls on the City, A Place in the Country and Private Worlds, about an actress and her group of friends from 1938 until after the war.

To the Opera Ball, the aftermath of WWII and 25 years later ...

THE COLD DARK NIGHT: a young man goes to Berlin to cover the Four Power Conference and gets involved in murder and espionage.

All bar one of Sarah Gainham’s dozen novels were set in central Europe, a region she came to know intimately after the Second World War. Born Rachel Steiner in London ..., she moved to Germany shortly after WWII, then settled in Vienna in 1947 where she remained for the rest of her life. From the mid-fifties to mid-sixties, she was the Central European correspondent for the Spectator.

[AB76]

Gpfr wrote: "Thinking about Austria, WWII, etc., I enjoyed Sarah Gainham's novels.

the trilogy: Night Falls on the City, A Place in the Country and Private Worlds, ab..."

never heard of her, thanks GP

[giveusaclue]

Gpfr wrote: "And also Winters in the World: A Journey through the Anglo-Saxon Year, taking me back to my university days, Beowulf, Bede, Old English poetry "

Ooooh that looks interesting.

And I need to read some more history having been on a crime binge most of the year!

[scarletnoir]

Bill wrote: "scarletnoir wrote: "'Schewik' has one joke - he is forever dossing out of soldiering by one ruse or another. I found it wearing after 50 pages or so"

I would say that what you refer to as the “one..."

Whatever the rationale, I found the humour crudely written and unfunny - but as I've said before, humour is a very personal thing. I did find it dated as well, so am nevertheless surprised that it still has its admirers for that reason.

As for 'Mrs Brown's Boys' - since I only ever saw 5 minutes, I can't comment with authority as to its intent, but a reasonable guess would be that it is not 'commenting' on anything at all, but is - and is meant to be - just very silly. Which would be fine, if only it was funny as well. (As I wrote before, many people do find it funny - apparently. Another example of the ways in which humans can differ!)

[scarletnoir]

Bill wrote: "I’ve wondered how much my musical taste was unconsciously formed by my childhood devotion to the 1930s horror films from Universal – I was always scouring the TV schedule in the hope that one would turn up. Re-viewing them as an adult I was struck how, both in the mise en scène and the soundtrack, they seemed to take place in a sort of timeless version of the Austro-Hungarian empire."

Indeed - early American horror was very much influenced by the German expressionist movement, as far as the 'look' of the pictures is concerned. I came across an interesting article whilst trying to find a justification for my intuition that this was the case - here it is:
https://thetwingeeks.com/2020/10/26/g...
And it seems that there is a channel dedicated to the Universal horror films, though I know nothing about it:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Univers...

[scarletnoir]

I was alarmed to see a comment on the 'Guardian' under my pseudonym - but I didn't write it! Has this happened to anyone else?

I have messaged the Guardian to complain...

[MK]

AB -- Please watch your back! I'm still reshelving and have learned to do it piecemeal. I hope you have ample time.

On reshelving, I'm finding the odd book I wonder why I bought it
in the first place. Looks like my tastes have changed over time. Biography of Philip II of Spain -- really?

[AB76]

scarletnoir wrote: "Bill wrote: "I’ve wondered how much my musical taste was unconsciously formed by my childhood devotion to the 1930s horror films from Universal – I was always scouring the TV schedule in the hope t..."

Nosferatu, was a superb expressionist classic!

[AB76]

MK wrote: "AB -- Please watch your back! I'm still reshelving and have learned to do it piecemeal. I hope you have ample time.

On reshelving, I'm finding the odd book I wonder why I bought it
in the first p..."

thanks MK, am aiming for books in boxes at a slow-ish pace, at 47 my back is in pretty ok but i shall take heed!

[AB76]

scarletnoir wrote: "I was alarmed to see a comment on the 'Guardian' under my pseudonym - but I didn't write it! Has this happened to anyone else?

I have messaged the Guardian to complain..."

that has never happened to me, did somebody manage to create an account as you?

also where is the latest G thread, they closed the July one but no sign of August!

[giveusaclue]

AB76 wrote: "MK wrote: "Thanks, AB. I've been meaning to ask about Georg, too.

Note--writing from phone as internet still down."

i have the opposite, internet ok but landline down as BT transferred me to digi..."

It is catching. Was watching the football tonight and it suddenly froze on my tv (virgin tivo box) and lost internet connection. They are back now but landline not working. Joys of technology!

[AB76]

giveusaclue wrote: "AB76 wrote: "MK wrote: "Thanks, AB. I've been meaning to ask about Georg, too.

Note--writing from phone as internet still down."

i have the opposite, internet ok but landline down as BT transferr..."

oh yes...we are in a world where so much of the house is electronic/digital, even in a relatively old school(for a 47yo) house like mine

[Robert]

AB76 wrote: "A sobering and sad long article in the NYRB by Laurence Tribe on the Supreme Court made me quite angry, its appalling that even if the serial criminal Donald J Trump is never elected again, that hi..."

We are flooded with these voices prophesying war of Americans against Americans. It comes from left and right, both cashing in on fear. My hope (I still have some) is that people will shake these voices off.

[CCCubbon]

giveusaclue wrote: "Gpfr wrote: "And also Winters in the World: A Journey through the Anglo-Saxon Year, taking me back to my university days, Beowulf, Bede, Old English poetry "

Ooooh that looks interesting.

And I n..."

Winters in the world is a fascinating book. I enjoyed it very much