TDP: Section 2: 3rd Geder - 4th Marcus

[Bill]

Please keep all discussion to the events and speculation from this section.

No spoiler tags required. Though it would be highly appreciated if you Uncheck Add to my Update Feed to avoid accidentally spoiling this for your good read friends.

Please do not discuss events from later chapters. Referring back to events from a previous section/book is fine.

[Sky]

Section 2 is Kindle loc 1198-2404

First sentence "Geder had imagined Vanai would be more like Camnipol or Estinport"

Last sentence "We better had", Marcus said, dropping the coins for their drinks on the table. "Before she does something dangerous"

For the audible version narrated by Pete Bradbury:

Section 2 starts at 2:52:25

[Lindsay]

The first chapter in this section shows how the POV characters are initially tied together. It becomes clear that the Antean occupation is about plunder, and the flight of Cithrin with the bank's wealth has basically wrecked the whole Antean campaign.

Cithrin's disguise lasts about as long as you think it would, particularly with a bunch of people who are used to going in disguise/costume along for the ride. Marcus reacts predictably. He's self aware enough that even he realizes he's reacting emotionally which is clever characterization.

Dawson's two chapters set the stage for Antean politics and give you an idea who the two initial factions are. It's a very interesting narrative choice that the older, conservative and authoritarian Dawson is the POV character in Camnipol. He's mostly been written sympathetically, but his politics and cause would be repugnant to most people reading it.

Geder gets his revenge against Klin. At this point I'm half cheering him on, but it's not the most honorable of acts.

[Sky]

Yeah, I also found it interesting the way the POV characters are presented and the choices they make.

Dawson is old-school politics, anti-commoner, pro-slavery, yet is presented sympathetically.

Geder is a lovable, goodhearted, and perhaps inept soldier, but has no qualms stealing or taking bribes.

Marcus is the typical strong silent hero type yet initially refuses to help Cithrin

It's a great book so far, I am loving how the different POVs are intertwined in the same story and sub-plots yet operating on totally different fronts.

[Suzanne]

Yeah I think one of my favorite things about the author is the complexity of his characters.

[Rob, Mayor of Ghost Town]

This series definitely has great characters. Especially one added later.

[Bill]

As you all said interesting twist on basic fantasy characters. I really like getting to see Dawson's POV as he would typically be the villain to the peoples champion pov. I know we are all supposed to root for the hero helping the lowly masses but I think the man in power trying to keep that power is more realistic and intersting plot device.

[Andreas]

Geder and Dawson are built up sympathetically. I suppose, they might turn to darker versions with their actions - maybe to some GRRMish murder.
The only problem I have with Dawson versus his enemies is that Dawson holds to old values like slavery, elitarism etc whereas his enemies got to the lower folks. They might do this only because of their power struggle but it also could be that they want to reform the country. The latter would make them the good ones.

So far, I like the characterizations and narrative structure. The only thing that I dislike are some longer info dumps - I even skip some of the longer passages.

[Bill]

I thought he was doing a good job with the info dumps. For me they have blended into the narrative very well.

[Scott]

Bill wrote: "I thought he was doing a good job with the info dumps. For me they have blended into the narrative very well."

I was the same way reading this. Never felt bogged down with them and the story still flowed very well

[Justine]

Andreas wrote: "Geder and Dawson are built up sympathetically. I suppose, they might turn to darker versions with their actions - maybe to some GRRMish murder.
The only problem I have with Dawson versus his enemie..."

Yes, I'm not such a fan of Dawson...with his all the lowborn are sheep mentality.

[Sumant]

I got a bit confused with the politics which Dawson is playing, because I think he was helping the mercers to hold the city of vanai longer and which was against the king, and here is shown as taking the side of king against the factions who are bent on removing the king.

[Bill]

I think Dawson's plot was a delaying tactic in order to get his son control of the army and then the governership of Vanai.

He never was against the king just wanted to take Vanai in a way that served him.

[Sumant]

Bill wrote: "I think Dawson's plot was a delaying tactic in order to get his son control of the army and then the governership of Vanai.

He never was against the king just wanted to take Vanai in a way that se..."

Ohh got it now thanks Bill.

Geder pulled a fast one on Kiln.

[Teanka]

Sumant wrote: "I got a bit confused with the politics which Dawson is playing, because I think he was helping the mercers to hold the city of Vanai longer and which was against the king, and here is shown as taki..."

I also thought the same in the first section, when we didn't know yet that Dawson was the king's best friend. Right now I'm thinking more along the lines how likely is Dawson's intrigue to succeed or is he going to be an 'Eddard Stark' here? Simeon is obviously not a strong king.

I was very interested with the information provided in this section. For one, it seems that the rulers of the ancient empire with its capital in Camnipol were the dragons themselves, and the last dragon emperor was called Morade. What's interesting, he created a rightful servant who always knew who was telling the truth and who was lying and everything he said was instantly believed in. Sounds a lot like the monks and apostate in the prologue. And also the scene from previous section with the bandits comes to mind, when Master Kit managed to save the caravan from a fight. More proof that he could be the acolyte from the prologue or somehow connected to the monks. Also when the caravan arrived at Port Oliva, master Kit gave a coin to a beggar, saying that not all beggars lie. It seemed as if he knew which one of them was not a liar.

Justine wrote: "I'm not such a fan of Dawson...with his all the lowborn are sheep mentality. "
Of course his mentality is abhorrent to us and yet it seems it is justified by his country's history - it was a slaves' uprising which provoked the family of Antea to create an empire with the capital in the city built by dragons. Therefore it is believable that the aristocracy there would treat both other races and the poor/peasants/slaves worse than is the case in other countries. And Dawson's ancestors had been kings once before the empire of Antea was established. I don't believe Issandrian is better in this regard, he probably only pretends to be peasants' friend because it suits his own plans.

I think Geder is going to prove invaluable sometime in the future, with the knowledge he acquires translating ancient scrolls. I like him a lot, it isn't easy to be a scholar in an environment he lives in. In fact, I like all of the characters.

Some other loose thoughts on this section:

In the first chapter, I was surprised that they didn't kill the prince of Vanai, and mentioned exiling him instead, whereas Master Imaniel was arrested. Aren't banks supposed to be neutral? Subsequently, Alan klin decides to get hold of the bank's money. I don't understand how could a new governor behave in such a way towards a neutral bank branch? Will Antea be able to borrow money from any other bank after something like that?

And a small comment: Antea is called an empire, yet it has just a king as a ruler. I thought this strange.

[Bill]

I didn't think Gedar snapping was out of character at all look at how many people who get bullied go on shooting rampages. It seems like he has been dealing with it for a long time.

Cirith does seem to act a bit young but I think she has grown up isolated in the bank.

Marcus is just fucked up from his daughters death. I don't really understand why he acts that way toward Cirith. I get that his daughter would be roughly the same age but they have barely interacted. If they had been bonding during the whole trip I think it would have been a bit more realistic.

[Teanka]

Alex wrote: "Teanka wrote: "And a small comment: Antea is called an empire, yet it has just a king as a ruler. I thought this strange. "

Queen Victoria reigned over the British Empire for many years. :)"

A good point. Not in the medieval ages, though. I guess Simeon isn't strong enough to call himself an emperor, and that's it.

[Kevin]

I'm guessing the deer hunt story is meant to foreshadow King Simeon being killed by the conspirators.

It seems sides are drawn with fathers and sons both opposing the other. On one side, Issandrian, Maas and Klin and on the other Dawson and perhaps King Simeon. Dawson seems fairly certain he's on the king's side.

Issandrian sounds like a champion of the peasants, kind of like a chairman Mao.

Who's side is Ternigan on?

[Justine]

I hadn't thought of the deer hunt being used that way in this book...I'm not sure Abraham meant it as a literary allusion. I'll be interested to hear what you think after you get further in.

[Kevin]

Justine wrote: "I hadn't thought of the deer hunt being used that way in this book...I'm not sure Abraham meant it as a literary allusion. I'll be interested to hear what you think after you get further in."
I'm good at thinking I see allusion where none exist. I keep trying to guess if the translations Geder is making somehow hint at something about to happen in the story. In both cases, probably not.