Week 6 - Part 2, Chapter 8 + Part 3, Chapters 1-2

[Susan]

This was another action-filled week, where it was impossible (for me anyway) to stop reading at Chapter 2. We meet another major character, Colonel Sotillo.

Background: Sulaco’s troops have left for Cayta. But Pedro Montero and his troops are chasing after the defeated Ribiera and will arrive in Sulaco in the next day, and a shipload of pro-Montero troops is en route from Esmeralda and expected before daylight. Ribiera has fled the country, and the political authorities in Sulaco are prepared to surrender when the pro-Montero troops arrive, but an unofficial group which includes the Goulds and Martin Decoud has a plan for a counter-revolution. The wind having failed them, Nostromo and Decoud are rowing to the Isabels to hide their boat carrying six months of San Tome silver.

Part 2, Chapter 8 + Part 3, Chapters 1-2

After Nostromo discovers Señor Hirsh hiding on the boat, Hirsh tells his story. During the rioting in Sulaco, he fled from one hiding place to another, finally crawling into the lighter at the jetty. He overheard the men loading the silver and understood what was going on, but was so desperate to get away from Sulaco that he remained hidden in the boat. He is still in a panic, and Nostromo tells him to stay out of the way in the front of the boat.

Then they hear the approach of the troop ship from Esmeralda. They wait in the darkness and talk quietly, hoping to escape detection. Nostromo is prepared to scuttle the boat to keep the silver away from the Montero forces.

Colonel Sotillo, the Commandant of Esmeralda, is in charge of the pro-Montero troop ship. He originally got his post in Esmeralda as a Ribiera supporter and visitor to the Casa Gould, but his real interest was in buddying up with the wealth of the Gould concession and courting Antonia for similar reasons. Now that the Montero side is winning, he’s changed sides and plans to seize the six-month silver shipment in Sulaco. He has a reputation as a violent, cruel man.

In the darkness, the two ships collide, and in a freak occurrence, Hirsh is transferred to the troop ship. Sotillo and his men are furious to hear from Hirsh that they collided with a boat carrying the silver. They don’t want to believe it’s true. They sail on toward Sulaco to find out where the silver is. Nostromo and Decoud make it to Great Isabel and cache the silver on the island. Decoud stays on the island so he can try to catch a ride out of the country on a passing ship, and Nostromo takes the lighter and heads back. On reflection, it seems safest to sink the boat, so he does, planning to swim the remaining mile back.

In Sulaco, Captain Mitchell is waiting on the wharf for the arrival of the troop ship from Esmeralda, as the railway staff and their workmen withdraw to the railway yards. Dr Monygham and the Engineer-in-chief discuss the state of affairs and how it affects the Gould Concession. They have differing opinions of Nostromo’s fitness for the task of taking the silver away.

Sotillo and his men arrive at the harbor. Captain Mitchell is taken prisoner, and a soldier takes his watch. Sotillo isn’t sure what’s happened with the silver because the panicked Hirsh makes a poor witness. Captain Mitchell is surprised by how much Sotillo knows but is not going to fill him in. He is imprisoned in the strong room of the Custom House where he is presently joined by Dr Monygham, who reports Teresa Viola rallied briefly but then died as a soldier shot at (and missed) someone in the Inn. Dr Monygham heard Hirsh’s version that the lighter with the silver was sunk in the collision and shares it with Captain Mitchell, who assumes Nostromo and Decoud are dead.

Discussion starters:

1) In this section, Conrad presents picture after picture of how different men behave in a time of crisis —Nostromo, Decoud, Hirsh, Charles Gould, the Engineer-in-chief, Dr Monygham, Captain Mitchell, and Colonel Sotillo. Were there any surprises in how some of these characters acted under stress and danger?

2). Colonel Sotillo, although drawn with the same psychological insight as the other characters, looks as if he may be the villain of the story. Or is he any different from others chasing after the San Tome silver?

[Aiden]

I'm not sure I would say that I was surprised by any of the characters.

I did find it strange that Antonia, who Decoud supposedly loves, and Antonia's mother apparently insisted that Decoud go with the silver, even after Nostromo tells them that it's a suicide mission. Was this the women testing Decoud's love, did they really think he would save the silver (as he did), or were they finding a convenient way to get him out of the picture?

Nostromo behaved consistently with his sense of vanity in that he fully intended to drown with the silver, and was a little annoyed that Decoud ruined his plans as a capitalist martyr. I can't tell whether Sotillo is misjudging Mitchell or vice versa, but Mitchell's complaints about his watch being taken seem ridiculous. The implication is obviously that Sotillo wouldn't dare hurt/kill/rob a European. It seems unclear whether this is true or not during revolutionary times.

[Aiden]

Susan wrote: "Colonel Sotillo, although drawn with the same psychological insight as the other characters, looks as if he may be the villain of the story. Or is he any different from others chasing after the San Tome silver?"

To me, he seems like every other Costaguanero who wants to confiscate the silver in the name of the people. He seems just as disingenuous in this stated aim as the outgoing dictator and the seemingly incoming Montero.

Everyone voices their ideals when plundering and stealing, but Gould, Montero, Sotillo, Decoud and all others seems to just be making excuses. Gould just wants to take the silver out of the country without benefiting Costaguana or anyone but himself. The Constaguaneros want to keep the silver in the country so that they can personally profit from it instead.

So far, I'm on the side of Giorgio, who seems to be just trying to survive in troubled times. Everyone else is suspect.

[Susan]

Aiden wrote: "I did find it strange that Antonia, who Decoud supposedly loves, and Antonia's mother apparently insisted that Decoud go with the silver, even after Nostromo tells them that it's a suicide mission. Was this the women testing Decoud's love, did they really think he would save the silver (as he did), or were they finding a convenient way to get him out of the picture?”

Under the new Montero regime, Decoud’s life would be forfeit. One place where this is stated is back in Part 2, Chapter 7, when Decoud writes to his sister regarding Pedrito Montero: “I know his intentions. I have seen him change the plates at table. Whoever is allowed to live on in terror, I must die the death.”
.

As for the silver, according to Decoud, it was his idea to get the silver out of town: “The principal thing is that she [Mrs Gould] has backed up my advice to get the silver out of the town, out of the country, at once, at any cost, any risk.” He clearly sees this as a political move.

Btw, I think “Antonia’s mother” must be a typo for Mrs Gould since she was involved in the plans for the silver.

[Aiden]

I agree that it was Decoud pushing for his own safety and keeping the silver from the Monterists in earlier chapters, but it was something said by Nostromo while they are already on the water in mortal danger that makes me think that, while Decoud may have been told this was the safest plan for him, that was disingenuous at best.

In the last chapter of part two, when they hear the steamer and know that silence is the only safety, Nostromo tells Decoud that if he didn't know him to be a man of courage, he would have already quietly stuck a knife in Don Martin's heart for the good of the mission. Decoud replies that Nostromo need not worry because he is steady. Then he starts a sentence, which I think was meant to be reminding Nostromo of his importance, but is cut of:

Decoud: "Only, have you forgotten--"

“I spoke to you openly as to a man as desperate as myself,” explained the Capataz. “The silver must be saved from the Monterists. I told Captain Mitchell three times that I preferred to go alone. I told Don Carlos Gould too. It was in the Casa Gould. They had sent for me. The ladies were there; and when I tried to explain why I did not wish to have you with me, they promised me, both of them, great rewards for your safety. A strange way to talk to a man you are sending out to an almost certain death. Those gentlefolk do not seem to have sense enough to understand what they are giving one to do. I told them I could do nothing for you. You would have been safer with the bandit Hernández. It would have been possible to ride out of the town with no greater risk than a chance shot sent after you in the dark. But it was as if they had been deaf. I had to promise I would wait for you under the harbour gate. I did wait. And now because you are a brave man you are as safe as the silver. Neither more nor less.”

My interpretation of that discourse is that, though Decoud obviously has no idea of this, Nostromo insisted to everyone planning this adventure that not only did he not need Decoud, but that Decoud would in fact be safer anyplace else, since Nostromo fully expected to have to drown with the silver. Nostromo points out that Decoud is exactly as safe as that silver; which is to say, he is in nearly hopeless peril, so Nostromo is baffled by the contradiction of them pleading for Decoud's safety while insisting he be part of a suicide mission.

So my question is why did everyone ignore Nostromo's sensible warnings and send Decoud on what they were told by someone they trusted was a suicide mission when he obviously had better options? Did they intentionally risk his life? Were they really oblivious to the fact that they were asking Nostromo to undertake a suicide mission, as Nostromo implies he thinks? Did they just think Nostromo was being overdramatic? (This last seems unlikely.)

P.S.- You're right. The inclusion of "the ladies" and their age difference made me think of them momentarily as mother-daughter. I meant Mrs. Gould.

[Susan]

Aiden wrote: "So my question is why did everyone ignore Nostromo's sensible warnings and send Decoud on what they were told by someone they trusted was a suicide mission when he obviously had better options? Did they intentionally risk his life? Were they really oblivious to the fact that they were asking Nostromo to undertake a suicide mission, as Nostromo implies he thinks? Did they just think Nostromo was being overdramatic? (This last seems unlikely.).."

Very interesting point. I’m going to go back and reread those sections about the plans for the silver and in the boat, but I’m wondering if Nostromo was as forceful in the conversation as he thinks he was and/or if his opinion was discounted. I’m leaning towards the second one. I can see why they would want to send more than one man on the silver mission, so that his arguments against it would be waved aside. I’m also wondering if they don’t take Nostromo’s opinions as seriously 1) because there isn’t any other (good) option and 2) because he is seen less as an equal planner and more as just a doer, the faithful servant/instrument of the steamboat company/Captain Mitchell.

Another complication is there are often multiple points of view on the same event. I’m not sure that’s true here since I don’t remember getting any other perspective than Nostromo’s on that encounter (at least so far), but I’m going to reread those sections and look for clues ;)

[Aiden]

Susan wrote: "I’m not sure that’s true here since I don’t remember getting any other perspective than Nostromo’s on that encounter (at least so far), but I’m going to reread those sections and look for clues"

I read it as irony. We actually are given Decoud's view of the adventure first before they set off. And he definitely thinks it's the best and safest thing for him to be doing. Then, once they're out on the water and he is hopelessly committed, we see that Nostromo was all but begging the people who supposedly care about Decoud to let him go alone since it's a suicide mission. Nostromo just thought them to be foolish Europeans. I had considered the possibility of more sinister motives.

When Decoud thinks about it before hand, he doesn't seem to think there's even a possibility that this is a suicide mission. Which implies to me that he's just finding out from Nostromo they all those he loved and trusted lied to him. Or at least, so Nostromo says. But then, since Nostromo's only motivation is vanity, why would he lie?

[Susan]

Aiden wrote: "Susan wrote: "I’m not sure that’s true here since I don’t remember getting any other perspective than Nostromo’s on that encounter (at least so far), but I’m going to reread those sections and look..."

I guess I’m not convinced that it was a suicide mission or even that Nostromo always thought it was. That’s not how he talks about it to Teresa Viola. Risky, yes. But a suicide mission to me means a minuscule chance of success.

I also thought Decoud had his own agenda here for going, but I may be missing something. I’m finding Conrad slips a lot of important info into just a sentence ;)

Sorry for this delay responding, but I had to stop rereading the back chapters to do the reading for this week, but now that’s done, I’ll go back and finish looking because I think the revelation of Nostromo’s character here may be key to understanding him.

[Aiden]

You know, Conrad's irony can sometimes be very ambiguous. I guess there's no clear indication in the text that Nostromo necessarily knows more than the others. Decoud definitely had his own agenda. What Nostromo said made me question whether his agenda and Antonia/the Goulds' agenda are the same with regard to Decoud surviving, as we're initially led to believe.

Also, it's possible that Nostromo thought it was a suicide mission, but the others just thought he was being dramatic, since he does have that tendency. One thing the text does make clear is that Nostromo thought it was a suicide mission. He's actually disappointed at one point that he had Decoud with him because otherwise he would have sunk the silver and gained immortality through fame like he wanted.

[Borum]

Aiden wrote: "I agree that it was Decoud pushing for his own safety and keeping the silver from the Monterists in earlier chapters, but it was something said by Nostromo while they are already on the water in mo..."

This is another part of the book that suggested that Decoud, not Nostromo might be the sacrificial lamb they threw in. In fact, I'm beginning to have the feelings that the Company or Gould or the Sulaco Blancos didn't trust Nostromo fully enough and made him go with Decoud to watch over him, which is probably another reason Nostromo is so pissed off and his ego hurt. Maybe they needed another person with a different motive to guard the booty.

[Lily]

The trust/lack thereof between elements of the society? Dignity denied? Are these forces at work here? Natives? English? Spanish landowners? American? (Catholic) church? Press? Does Conrad make the power/prestige lines and their dynamics understandable?

[Susan]

Borum wrote: "In fact, I'm beginning to have the feelings that the Company or Gould or the Sulaco Blancos didn't trust Nostromo fully enough and made him go with Decoud to watch over him, which is probably another reason Nostromo is so pissed off and his ego hurt. Maybe they needed another person with a different motive to guard the booty. .."

This interpretation makes sense to me. I couldn't find anywhere in the text that actually says this, but it seems reasonable to entrust responsibility for such an important mission to more than one person, no matter outstandingly competent they are.

[Susan]

Lily wrote: ".. The trust/lack thereof between elements of the society? Dignity denied? Are these forces at work here? Natives? English? Spanish landowners? American? (Catholic) church? Press? Does Conrad make the power/prestige lines and their dynamics understandable?."

Lily, You ask if Conrad makes the dynamics of power/prestige in Costaguana clear. I think he does in a broad, sweeping way that touches on all of your list of population groups and more, except Americans. The only American character I can remember is Holroyd the investor in San Francisco.

[Lily]

Susan wrote: "except Americans. The only American character I can remember is Holroyd the investor in San Francisco...."

Which I found interesting in itself -- and haven't been able to ascribe a "meaning" yet. I am beginning to buy into those who write that this is one of those books/novels/classics that can only be "understood" in re-reading.

[Roger]

It just occurred to me that Nostromo showed incredible presence of mind and resolve when he sank his boat and swam to shore. If he hadn't its wreck might have been found with no silver in it, leading to persistent questions and a search.