The Go-Between by L.P. Hartley (September 2023)

[Nigeyb]

Susan wrote:


"I wish we knew, as children, how we would grow out of being embarrassed. I really don't care a jot whether people like me or not now, but at sixteen it is soul destroying to realise these things!"

Absolutely. And just think how enjoyable those years would be if you knew then what you know now.


"Totally agree that the ending packs a real punch. Enjoyed the Audible version so much, with the wonderful Sean Barrett (of Slough House fame) reading. Highly recommend it."

I've got Barrett envy

[Nigeyb]

Ben wrote in his review:


"I wondered how much of the homoeroticism of the novel was apparent at the time, the contrast between the descriptions of Ted's body and those of Marian is so complete."

I didn't notice this at all

Is it Leo who you identify as erotically attracted to Ted?

I saw that relationship has more hero worship that anything else. Leo has similar feelings for Trimingham, though based on conduct rather than physicality.

[Ben]

It was the way he noticed the details of Ted's body, as opposed to the lack of any "objectivisation" of Marian's. He finds Trimingham's face somewhat repulsive.

The scrutiny seemed to satisfy him, as well it might. I, whose only acquaintance was with bodies and minds developing, was suddenly confronted by maturity in its most undeniable form; and I wondered, what must it feel like to be him, master of those limbs which have passed beyond the need of gym and playing field, and exist for their own strength and beauty? What can they do, I thought, to be conscious of themselves? Now he had a plantain stalk in his left hand and was rubbing it gently along the hairs of his right forearm; they glinted in the sun and were paler than his arms, which were mahogany-coloured to above the elbow. Then he stretched both arms high above his chest, which was so white it might have belonged to another person, except below his neck where the sun had burnt a copper breastplate; and he smiled to himself, an intimate, pleased smile, that would have looked childish or imbecile on most people, but on him had the effect of a feather on a tiger – it pointed a contrast, and all to his advantage.

There is a similar description when he visits Ted in Ted's house but I can't find it just now

[Roman Clodia]

I agree (though haven't re-read this so it's memory only) to the homoeroticism of the book but didn't attribute it specifically to Leo.

I wonder if there's something similar going on as in Lady Chatterley's Lover where Ted's strength and vitality, his animal spirits, are contrasted with the effete and stultified traditions of the upper classes - isn't Trimingham scarred or wounded in some way? A sort of figurative way of thinking of the body politic, divided by class?

Clifford Chatterley in his wheelchair is set against Mellors in DH Lawrence who can't help make his point over obvious!

A possible reason why Marian isn't described is that Edwardian dress covered her completely - one of the reasons why that final scene is so shocking.

Are you thinking of the scene where Leo goes to Ted's house and he's cleaning his gun? Lots of phallic symbolism there! - but also Chekhovian too that the gun is mentioned at this point.

[Ben]

Roman Clodia wrote: "I agree (though haven't re-read this so it's memory only) to the homoeroticism of the book but didn't attribute it specifically to Leo.

I wonder if there's something similar going on as in Lady C..."

Yes, exactly. I knew that gun was going to go off!

It's a little hard to distinguish between Leo and the author, but the description covers what Leo noticed and how it made him feel, so I attribute it to Leo, even though it may also reflect Hartley's orientation.

[Nigeyb]

Thanks


All that passed me by on both readings 🤠

[Nigeyb]

Leo also has very strong feelings for Marian, more so than his feelings for Ted which seem more ambivalent. What do you think?

[Ben]

Agreed but it seemed to me that his feelings for Marian weren’t physical/sexual.

[Roman Clodia]

Well, for me, Marian was to Leo the bella donna and, like the plant, he finds her beautiful, enticing, but dangerous and, ultimately, poisonous.

Much of his ambivalence about Ted I'd attribute to his own sense of not belonging - Ted, like Mellors, is who he is and Leo wants to be him, I'd say, even while he tries to cleave to everything the big house and its inhabitants stand for.

That's what I mean about the homoerotic atmosphere not being something that I'd easily attribute to either Leo or Hartley, whether consciously or not - it's in the book but I don't think it's as straightforward as closeted sexuality on the part of either character or author.

Then again, I'm saying all this from memory of reading the book some years back!

[Nigeyb]

Roman Clodia wrote:


"That's what I mean about the homoerotic atmosphere not being something that I'd easily attribute to either Leo or Hartley, whether consciously or not - it's in the book but I don't think it's as straightforward as closeted sexuality on the part of either character or author"

I agree with this perspective

I am sure Hartley did not consciously intend a homoerotic subtext.

My take is that Leo's feelings for Ted were more akin to hero worship and that was around his physicality and mastery of the physical world. There was no hint of any sexual attraction, it was more admiration

Great point about Marian being the bella donna - dangerous and, ultimately, poisonous

[Susan]

Ultimately, I thought this was about class. The cricket match personified that for me, where Ted (earlier seen swimming strongly, while most of the young men in the Big House were just splashing about) was superior to all those public schoolboys. It foreshadows WWI and the changing society about to come, when so many of those villagers will no longer wish to work in service.

Leo was very much still a child, unsure about the facts of life. Unwilling to allow his schoolfriends to explain them. He liked the mystery, was very much a followerer, who admired people for different reasons and could compartmentalise his life, like many children do. He had different relationships with adults, such as his friendship with the footman, as servants felt more able to talk to the children of the house and treat them kindly, when the adults who had invited Leo to stay so often ignored him. He thought he should admire Trimingham, but he really admired Ted, and that confused him a little.

[Nigeyb]

I agree with every point there Susan - very well put


There's so much going on, and all that is coupled with the glorious writing


One other point that I'd like to raise is whether we'd expect a 13 year old of Leo's class, and at that time, to be as unwordly as he is. On the one hand young teenagers signed up for WW1 a few years later, on the other, a child at boarding school from a quiet background, would likely be quite unworldly.

What do we think?

[Roman Clodia]

Yes, I agree too with all Susan's points - and I think Leo is born in 1900 isn't he, so he's the same age as the century. He's such a self-conscious boy, part outsider, always anxious about doing something that shows him up as not quite in the same class as his hosts.

Did I already say somewhere that The Little Stranger picks up these points about class and interrogates them from a C21st viewpoint?

[Roman Clodia]

I completely accepted Leo's Innocence. I think it's partly his personality to not see or know what he doesn't want to see/know, he's quite the romantic in some ways.

And I just think people were younger a hundred years ago. The teenager hadn't been 'invented' yet and adolescents were little adults. That example of sixteen and seventeen years olds going off gladly to WW1 is a good example of a kind of cultural innocence that we no longer have. (Not always a bad thing).

[Nigeyb]

Roman Clodia wrote:


"Did I already say somewhere that The Little Stranger picks up these points about class and interrogates them from a C21st viewpoint?"

If you did I had not retained the information

I hope to pick up a copy of The Little Stranger from the library today.

I was blown away by The Paying Guests which remains the only book I have so far read by Sarah Waters, so high time I read more by her.

[Roman Clodia]

Hurrah! I think you'd also like her The Night Watch set during the blitz.

[Ben]

I will hold firmly to my minority position. 😉

I was just struck that, with the exception of Leo's revulsion at Trimingham's disfigurement, Ted's is the only body Leo notices, and he dwells on Ted's muscles, his "animal" nature, and his potency. I agree there is an overlap between class and sexuality, and I can't speak to Hartley's intentions-- but weren't some of his later novels more explicitly homoerotic?

[Nigeyb]

Ben wrote:


"....weren't some of his later novels more explicitly homoerotic?"

I don't know

I really should read more Hartley

If and when I find out I'll report back

[Susan]

You may well be right, Ben. Public schoolboys often had crushes and many authors of that period suggested that it was acceptable to have such feelings for other boys, but expected you should grow out of it. I read a book about Waugh and a club he belonged to at Oxford (can't remember the name now, but can probably find it if anyone is interested) which made points about young men in all male environments, who are expected to then suddenly grow up, get married, go off to war, etc. So he may well have seen Ted as this perfect male specimen and yet been confused as he seemed to expect more from Trimingham and yet be permanently underwhelmed.

In terms of his sexuality, he made it clear that he did not understand 'spooning,' nor was he at an age where he found women necessarily interesting, but that made his desire to please Marian more confusing for him. He was on the cusp of adulthood.

Even now though, how much do children really understand? You can explain things biologically, but until they are experienced I would say that really knowledge is fairly unreliable. My concern for much of this generation is that they learn about sex through porn, shared on phones at school, which gives a very skewed vision of sex. However, is that more unreliable than stories told behind the bike shed? I'm not sure it is and I think the majority of people grow up enough to make sense of life and relationships.

[Nigeyb]

Susan wrote:


"You may well be right, Ben. Public schoolboys often had crushes and many authors of that period suggested that it was acceptable to have such feelings for other boys, but expected you should grow out of it."

Good point Susan, although there were no references to that in this book that I recall.

I'd forgotten about his wanted to know about spooning. That demonstrates just how callow he was and probably pretty typical of a 13 year old boy in that era, and of his class and background

The Ted/Triminghan conflict was fascinating. Ted with the manly physicality and practical skills, versus Triminghan with his breeding, status and the manner of a refined gentleman, as well as being a war hero

[Nigeyb]

I was trying to find out if LP Hartley did in fact write explicitly homoerotic novels and so far have drawn a blank.

I did come up with this rather splendid review by Ali Smith of The Go-Between which states that "LP Hartley's masterpiece can also be read as a sophisticated gay novel" although I am not sure that the review is particularly compelling on that point. Either way it is well worth reading....


Rereading: The Go-Between by LP Hartley

A story of lost innocence, hypocrisy and Britishness – but LP Hartley's masterpiece can also be read as a sophisticated gay novel

https://www.theguardian.com/books/201...

[Roman Clodia]

I think 'gay novel' is overstating hugely - but interesting Smith also made the DH Lawrence connection.

[Tania]

I finished this today. I'm moving house at the moment so have little time for reading, but I'm so glad I finally got to this novel. I enjoyed savouring it.

[Nigeyb]

Great news Tania


I hope the move goes as well as the book did