Catching up on Classics (and lots more!) discussion
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Into the Wild
New School Classics- 1915-2005
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Into the Wild - Spoiler Thread
Savita wrote: "...I think he needed psychological counseling or psychiatric assessment..."That's another topic this book touches on - the rights of an individual versus the rights of society. Where does society derive the right to determine that an individual requires counseling or assessment? Especially if he's not directly hurting anyone else?
Mod
Katy wrote: "On reader of Krakauer's Outside article claimed that Chris "lacked the requisite humility" to go into the wild and that he "commits big-time hubris". What do you think the reader meant by this? Do ..."I’m about half way through now, and I found these opinions that Alaskans sent to Krakauer very interesting. I think the reader meant that you have to have respect for wild Nature and understand it is more powerful than you. The reader felt that Chris was arrogantly assuming that he was able to overcome nature and get what he wanted from his adventure by his own force of will, rather than preparing for a real challenge with a stronger opponent.
I was interested in the other examples of people doing similar expeditions. The Alaskans must have been frustrated by the naivety and recklessness of these young adventurers, but Krakauer claimed Chris was different (mainly because he wasn’t mentally unstable - although that is arguable - but also because people seemed not only to like him but also to respect his abilities).
RJ - Slayer of Trolls wrote: "Savita wrote: "...I think he needed psychological counseling or psychiatric assessment..."That's another topic this book touches on - the rights of an individual versus the rights of society. Whe..."
You definitely have a point , RJ . Chris was not aggressive ..... he never harmed anyone ( I have reached chapter 6 ) . But still , there was a definite deviation from usual human behavior , and he did flout road and traffic rules . I feel he would have benefited from psychological / psychiatric evaluation and perhaps intervention. It may have saved his life ? In life , we do have to acquire some degree of tolerance and adjustment .... it is an easier and more constructive way forward .
He was not a complete loner . He struck up a good friendship with Westerberg and with Jan and Bob . A non aggressive young life was so painfully and needlessly lost .... I continue to feel aghast and contemplative on this issue .
I haven’t read the book but I remember following the story in the news when it happened. And discussing it. Not everyone prepares enough to go into the wild and then, sometimes things go way south. Things can can go very wrong even if you do try to be prepared but not as often.
Pamela wrote: "I’m about half way through now, and I found these opinions that Alaskans sent to Krakauer very interesting. I think the reader meant that you have to have respect for wild Nature and understand it is more powerful than you. The reader felt that Chris was arrogantly assuming that he was able to overcome nature and get what he wanted from his adventure by his own force of will, rather than preparing for a real challenge with a stronger opponent."Absolutely Pamela!
And although I think some of the other Alaskans' comments were overly harsh and judgemental, I agree with this sentiment. He did not have a proper understanding of the power of nature and the humility that comes from that.
Chapters 8-9 were some of the most interesting for me when Krakauer goes to a wider scope, describing people who disappeared or perished on similar excursions earlier and much earlier. Everett Ruess' story haunted me, and the brief reference to the Irish monks/anchorites known as papar was absolutely fascinating.Also, I think it's important that in these chapters, he mentions the deaths of several prepared and even world-renowned people, such as Mugs Stump who died on Denali in 1992. Some activities such as climbing and survivalist excursions are inherently dangerous, and even the best sometimes perish. It's telling that eight of John Waterman's climbing partners as well as his brother all died young, many of them in separate climbing accidents.
Why then do people do it? That's a question worth answering.
On a separate topic, in chapters 11-12, when Krakauer tells the story of Chris' youth from the perspective of his family and acquaintances, I don't think he romanticizes the portrait of Chris at all. Chris doesn't come across as very sympathetic there, though I bet discovering his father's double life with two women was a shocking discovery for him. It's a shame he never discussed it with his father and just bottled it up.
Annette wrote: "I haven’t read the book but I remember following the story in the news when it happened. And discussing it. Not everyone prepares enough to go into the wild and then, sometimes things go way south...."Yes , very right !
Greg wrote: "Chapters 8-9 were some of the most interesting for me when Krakauer goes to a wider scope, describing people who disappeared or perished on similar excursions earlier and much earlier. Everett Rues..."Why then do people do it ?
Must be an innate / inherent urge - like the powerful need to paint , create music , write , go to space ...... born with a purpose which must be fulfilled .
.... discovering his father 's double life .... must have been a horrible shock. Chris just bottled it up , and the angry poison found a dangerous outlet . Everyone has their own way of reacting .... I can't blame Chris 🤔 .
Mod
Katy wrote: "About a half-mile downstream the Teklanika River from where Chris tried to ford it, there is a gauging station with a steel cable and basket. Jon Krakauer used a detailed map to find this station a..."Not sure, I'm reaching a bit here . . . but I wonder if this had to do with his parents' affluence and the affluence he saw at his upscale university? Some of the higher-ups at companies I've worked for in the past went all out buying fancy gear for hunting excursions, and they were so proud of the extremely expensive equipment that it was a bit eye rolling. I wonder if Chris wanted to separate himself from that sort of mindset and meet the wild as a "common man" with his own wits? I mean, clearly not a smart thing to do. But his whole way of drifting and disregarding material goods, it feels like an overreaction and a way of separating himself from the world of his childhood. Even the places he went, South Dakota, Mexico, Bullhead, they're deliberately non-fancy places, very different than where he grew up.
Katy wrote: "About a half-mile downstream the Teklanika River from where Chris tried to ford it, there is a gauging station with a steel cable and basket. Jon Krakauer used a detailed map to find this station a..."Is it not the same reason he burned his money and left his very fixable car in the desert to rot? He was simply not able at this time to listen to anyone and was determined to do things on his own. But being violently independent and fashioning oneself as a lonely martyr who absolutely must figure this thing out without assistance is not a good thing, especially in situations like this.
Agree with Greg and Paula .
I am well into chapter 6 . Reading about Franz and filled with great admiration for this 80 years old gentleman . He's described as self reliant and disciplined . He had , long back , lost his wife and adult son , an only child , in a road accident . The son had been about to graduate from medical school . Franz never got over the loss of his wife and son . Yet , after an initial disturbed period , he got down to the job of living . He took poor children under his wing and paid for their education . He had wanted to adopt Chris too . If I understand any of the rules to get salvation , I feel elusive salvation is waiting to happen to this brave , loyal and kind gentleman . Franz is an inspiration to an amenable humanity . 💫 🕯💫And I compare him with Chris ' father , Walt . That gentleman couldn't be faithful to a living wife and four young children . It may be because of him that Chris was driven to his own doom . 😕
Franz does sound like a great guy Savita! I was impressed by him as well.
Almost done now - Krakauer's theory as to why Chris forgoes the map appears to be that Chris wanted the feeling of discovery, entering an uncharted area like the Arctic explorers of the 1800s. He mentions earlier that when Chris was in charge of the cross country team in school, he would have them run to the point that they deliberately got lost as an exercise to find their own way back. So even then he was interested in the idea of being lost.
I have avoided the topic feeling I may have unintentionally spoiled it for some and if I did, my apologies. Greg, I think you might enjoy Robert Macfarlane, and Underland: A Deep Time Journey would be my suggestion. MacFarlane is not meant in lieu of Krakauer, though there are some similarities, but MacFarlane incorporates both philosophical commentary and literary criticism in his books which you might enjoy.
Sam wrote: "I have avoided the topic feeling I may have unintentionally spoiled it for some and if I did, my apologies. Greg, I think you might enjoy Robert Macfarlane, and [book:Underland: A D..."Not at all Sam, you didn't spoil anything! And thanks so much for the recommendations - they look great!
Also, after finishing I do agree with a lot of what you said in your earlier comments. There is a pastiche of many different historical personages, Krakauer's own experience, and McCandless here, and all the experiences don't fit perfectly - they're disparate. An interesting book though.
Annette wrote: "I haven’t read the book but I remember following the story in the news when it happened. And discussing it. Not everyone prepares enough to go into the wild and then, sometimes things go way south...."I think Annette brings up a good point and one the author emphasized with his own experience, that the difference between Chris and folks who have a 'close call' in the wild can be very slim or even up to chance. I think there are much better prepared people who encounter freak circumstances and don't survive, as well as cases like Chris.
I actually enjoyed this book, more than the movie version which I watched a few years back, because I think the afterward helped give more context. I enjoyed the exploration of the dangers of romanticizing authors like Jack London and Henry David Thoreau and their characterizations of the wilderness. I also thought that Chris' journey to seek happiness was relatable if misguided, and that although it was possibly foolish it was brave to strike out by himself and with his own preparations.
To Savita's point, I also think something on Chris' family life likely had an influence on his decisions.
"McCandless was thrilled to be on his way north, and he was relieved as well—relieved that he had again evaded the impending threat of human intimacy, of friendship, and all the messy emotional baggage that comes with it. He had fled the claustrophobic confines of his family."
Since we don't know exactly what he was thinking based on the scanty writing left behind, his behavior may seem less selfish if we knew more what he was thinking.
Diana wrote: "I think Annette brings up a good point and one the author emphasized with his own experience, that the difference between Chris and folks who have a 'close call' in the wild can be very slim or even up to chance. I think there are much better prepared people who encounter freak circumstances and don't survive, as well as cases like Chris."This is very true! And there were several instances of the book of extremely prepared historical figures who did not survive.
Diana wrote: "Since we don't know exactly what he was thinking based on the scanty writing left behind, his behavior may seem less selfish if we knew more what he was thinking."I completely agree
Diana wrote: "Annette wrote: "I haven’t read the book but I remember following the story in the news when it happened. And discussing it. Not everyone prepares enough to go into the wild and then, sometimes thin..."Yes , this passage struck me also : McCandless was thrilled .... He had fled the claustrophobic confines of his family .
One of my Goodreads friends in another group shared with me about a later book written by Chris' sister Carine. According to her, there were a lot of things that weren't made public out of respect to the family, including a lot of abuse. Here's a link to a brief article about it:https://www.cpr.org/show-segment/chri...
As Diana says, it's impossible to really be certain what was going on with people after they're gone. There can be such different perspectives of the same events.
Anyway, the material at the link might be an interesting read after finishing the book.
Greg wrote: "One of my Goodreads friends in another group shared with me about a later book written by Chris' sister Carine. According to her, there were a lot of things that weren't made public out of respect ..."I read the details in the link . It's interesting but very sad . It does shed light on the factors that must have influenced Chris ' mind . The ultimate outcome was overwhelmingly sad and also arouses anger . Chris ' parents were not alcoholics or drug addicts , but they were horribly misdirected . Misdirected parents can damage so many lives . Family counseling may have helped . 🤔
Thanks for posting the link , Greg !
I am reading chapter 8 . Terrible to read about Rosellini and Waterman . Apparently, Rosellini thought that human beings had developed into progressively inferior beings !!!!
At least for Waterman there was an explanation : a rash of misfortune dealt a serious blow to his young psyche .
🤔
Thanks Greg for posting that link. I guess there are things that go on in any family that outsiders are not aware of. It does shed light on why Chris wanted to get away and also why he might have tried to find happiness and freedom in non-conventional ways. Recent studies of brain development have shown that the decision making part of the brain is FAR from complete when humans reach the age of 18. For women (according to the study I heard) the brain matures in the early to mid 20s, whereas for men the brain does not fully mature until the late 20s. Even outside of that study it is widely accepted that the Prefrontal Cortex is not fully developed until approximately 25 years old. I can see how this may also have affected some of Chris's decisions.
When I was younger my parents loved outdoor adventures and took my two younger sisters and me on a lot of hiking and camping trips. At times we were gone almost every weekend. One of our longer trips was to hike the Grand Canyon, which I accomplished at the age of 8 (my sisters were 5 and 3 although the youngest one got to ride in a backpack carried by my dad most of the way) which would have been in 1977. I remember that on our way back up, we ran into a hippie couple in distress at a rest stop about halfway down the face of the Bright Angel Trail. The couple had decided on a whim that they would just hike down the canyon for fun, bringing with them only a bottle of vodka to drink in the hot summer Arizona sun. You don't need a medical decree to figure out how that worked out for them. My dad gave them some of our water and told them to stay in the shade. Resuming our climb, we encountered a park ranger some time later and alerted him to the couple in distress; unfortunately, it was not the strangest thing the park ranger had ever seen and it might not have even been the strangest thing he'd seen that day. Some people just don't understand how pampered we are in our daily lives, and that nature can and will kill you without a second thought.
Authors like Thoreau and London have a love and respect for nature that has endeared them to generations of readers. But Thoreau died during the American Civil War at a time when most people could encounter nature just by walking out of their front door. And London wrote most of his works in the early 20th century when there were still houses that did not have electricity and indoor plumbing. Nature hasn't changed, but we the human race have.
Chapter 8 : It was depressing to read about McCunn's slow , prolonged death , and why the rescue plane flew off , leaving him behind .
Savita wrote: "Chapter 8 : It was depressing to read about McCunn's slow , prolonged death , and why the rescue plane flew off , leaving him behind ."Yes that was tragic. Really it showed his character was too impractical for surviving in the hostile environment. He made one error after another, even after he realised he was in a sticky situation. He wasn’t arrogant, just hopeless.
Pamela wrote: "Savita wrote: "Chapter 8 : It was depressing to read about McCunn's slow , prolonged death , and why the rescue plane flew off , leaving him behind ."Yes that was tragic. Really it showed his cha..."
Yes , I agree , He wasn't arrogant , just hopeless . I can't get over the shock of reading how the rescue plane flew away because he forgot to wave both hands ! Too , too sad .
RJ - Slayer of Trolls wrote: "Authors like Thoreau and London have a love and respect for nature that has endeared them to generations of readers. But Thoreau died during the American Civil War at a time when most people could encounter nature just by walking out of their front door. And London wrote most of his works in the early 20th century when there were still houses that did not have electricity and indoor plumbing. Nature hasn't changed, but we the human race have."I think this is a great point RJ.
The world is very different than it was in Thoreau's and London's time, and most wild areas in the USA are now somewhat curated as state parks.
I like what you say too about brain development. It's very true I think.
Mod
Katy wrote: "On August 18, 1992, Chris passed away. Krakauer notes that, "one of his last acts was to take a picture of himself, standing near the bus under the high Alaska sky, one hand holding his final note ..."Yes. And I say this as a nurse who worked many years as a hospice nurse. The months leading up to that were probably awful. But that last 2-3 days was peaceful. It always is.
Mod
I have finished chapter 12 . Hmm .... there's a severe breakdown of the relationship between Chris and his parents , because of the discovery of the existence of Walt's first marriage and the deception involved . After 2 years Chris disappears from their lives altogether . Very sorry situation .
“It was definitely a caribou,” Samel had scornfully piped in. “When I read in the paper that he thought he’d shot a moose, that told me right there he wasn’t no Alaskan. There’s a big difference between a moose and a caribou. A real big difference. You’d have to be pretty stupid not to be able to tell them apart.” So I was actually a Moose? So McCandless was better at identifying animals than the “experts”? Was he really so ill-prepared?
According to Wikipeadia shutting a moose was illegal. (source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_M... ) Maybe people where habitual covering up?
Another very interesting bit found in Wikipeadia (notice the year!):In March 2015, Krakauer co-authored a scientific analysis of the Hedysarum alpinum seeds McCandless ate. Instead of ODAP, the report found relatively high levels of L-canavanine (an antimetabolite toxic to mammals) in the H. alpinum seeds and concluded "it is highly likely that the consumption of H. alpinum seeds contributed to the death of Chris McCandless."
source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_M...
No chance that anyone could have know about this if it was published in 2015.
Also: Krakauer continuous to follow the trail after his book was published suggest to me that he was genuinely interested, not just gold hunting.
How should McCandless have prepared to be considered better or correctly prepared?I think what Krakauer is trying to say with his side story about himself is that the difference between surviving and dying is sometimes a matter of luck. For himself it was luck. McCandless was relatively better prepared than he was, but because McCandless died people accuse him of being underprepared. Krakauer survived to he is not accused of the same thing.
I guess most people would say he should have brought a map. Bringing a map would have made the trip another one that he wanted. It is like asking someone who wants to go swimming to bring a boat ‘for safety reasons’.
The abandoned bus was removed from the site in June 2020: “...deemed a public safety hazard after the deaths of Ackermann and Nikanava and numerous visitor rescue incidents.”https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stamped...
J_BlueFlower wrote: "Also: Krakauer continuous to follow the trail after his book was published suggest to me that he was genuinely interested, not just gold hunting."I definitely agree J_BlueFlower.
Hi everyone, I'm new here. A member over at another group turned me over to this group and I figured I'd join in.This book remains my #3 book of all time. I first read it back when I was 17 and graduating high school back in 2007. I heard about the movie first, but read the book first before I saw it and I was enamored by both.
I'll see about doing a re-read of the book in the 10 days there are left for this thread.
Katy wrote: "As you are reading, you might consider this question, "To what extent should we pursue our personal happiness at any cost?""This is an excellent question and one I have often wondered myself. In answering it, I would say that it all depends on the situation or the person in general. I know I myself would not be able to take on the journey that Chris did. I think there are limits and sometimes limits within limits.
We all strive to be happy or at least find some kind of peace within our lives. For me I'm content in just finding that happiness in a book or on a camping trip if I am able to, but then my reality sets in eventually. I don't think there is 100% happiness or fulfillment in this world, that would seem like a luxury to a lot of people. From my view, the best we can do is try to obtain that kind of happiness in our own way.
Katy wrote: "Many readers find it hard to have sympathy for young McCandless: his stubborn idealism and lack of preparedness, as someone has pointed out, amount to arrogance. Yet to a one, critics point to Krak..."I go back and forth. Yes, Krakauer got me feeling some kind of sympathy for McCandless, but at the same time the reality sets in and I can see his arrogance, misguided judgment, and ill-preparedness.
Katy wrote: "Henry David Thoreau wrote, “rather than love, than money, than fame, give me truth” . Chris highlighted this passage and wrote “truth” above it. What do you think Thoreau meant by “truth”? Why do y..."Love this question. I've always like Thoreau myself, but I take his words in a more philosophical view. As to what he meant by "truth", I think truth depends on a person's individual truth. What is the ultimate truth to a person is like what makes a person who they are?
Truth is a matter of perspective and while so many people claim there is a 'universal truth', what is that? I don't think truth can really be defined except by uncovering the depths of ourselves in an almost transcendental understanding.
Katy wrote: ""Alaska has long bee a magnet for dreamers and misfits, people who think the unsullied enormity of the last frontier will patch all of the holes in their lives." What are the holes people are try..."
That's an excellent question. It's kind of hard to give an exact answer. Take my own father for example.
My dad is a park ranger. Half the year he is out somewhere and half the time he is here. It's complicated because when he's out there he wants to be home, but then when he's home he wants to be out there.
I always get this sense that he's not genuinely comfortable with himself. As much as he loves the outdoors and stuff and as much as he loves his family, there seems to be something he can't define otherwise he wouldn't be so conflicted all of the time.
Katy wrote: "Krakauer said that when he was young, "personal mortality - the idea of (his) own death - was still largely outside of (his) conceptual grasp". What do you think he meant by this exactly? Do you th..."I think there's knowing about death versus accepting it. We all know we're going to die at some point. We don't know how, we don't know when, we don't know at what age. Yet it's how we deal with that knowledge that helps to make sense of our own mortality. I think in accepting death, only then we do not fear it.
I'm terrified to die, I think we all are on some level, but at the same time I accept it for what it is because there is no escaping it. There is no magical pill to prevent it, there are no vampires to turn us immortal, etc.
I think Chris was too blind by his own mortality. He was young an naive to be sure, but I think he viewed his world as something worth grabbing yet something he couldn't be torn away from despite whatever trials that he got himself into. He was trying to transcend into something greater which only sped up the process. Given how ill-prepared he was, how ignorant, and dare I say juvenile, his death wasn't just a far off possibility, but one that was inevitable and much sooner than he would have realized.
Paula W wrote: "Back to what Bob said about this needlessly romanticizing ignorance and stupidity, I found some stuff online that proves this. The original article and subsequent book appears to have inspired othe..."I've heard of this as well. While the book is a great reference and is really well-written, at the same time it can have either two effects: 1.) People romanticize what McCandless did and try it on their own or 2.) The book can serve as a warning.
I've heard stories of people doing what Chris did as a result of the book as well as everything else. There are even stories where people would try to reach the actual bus, before they removed it, and people were always needing to be rescued. They had to remove it because of how dangerous it was because of those people. They were not only putting their lives at risk, but the lives of others, such as the rescuers, as if there were no consequences.
Savita wrote: "I am reading chapter 4 . It's sad that McCandless didn't tell any of his family members about his plans . He flouted road and traffic laws . Called himself Alex Supertramp !! He felt unencumbered, ..."Maybe so, but I'm sure he had his reasons. I'm not defending Chris by any means, but sometimes family secrets come out that change everything. Secrets to the point that in Chris' case, he couldn't handle them and held a resentment towards his father that could not disappear. Of course it's sad that he cut off the rest of his family, his sister especially since they were close, but sometimes our demons have a way of expelling us from where we're at.
Could he have benefitted from counseling/therapy? Maybe, but it's hard to determine because it's like he also had this itch to just get away from the world so therapy would have only confined him.
RJ - Slayer of Trolls wrote: "That's another topic this book touches on - the rights of an individual versus the rights of society. Where does society derive the right to determine that an individual requires counseling or assessment? Especially if he's not directly hurting anyone else?"That's a good question. From what I've experienced, and I can only speak for myself, is that it can be a mixture of both the individual and their families or those that care for them.
Therapy/counseling can be a slippery slope. I had to reach my own rock bottom before I saw just how bad it was. It gave me pause to realize that what was happening to me wasn't right, like there was something off with my brain, but needed help defining. Turns out there was something wrong with it. I was diagnosed with Generalized Anxiety Disorder, Severe Depression, Bipolar 1, and as of recently PTSD.
Of course that is just my own experience. It can be hard to determine for others. Either they realize it themselves or they don't.
Catching up on Classics (and lots more!)
Books mentioned in this topic
Underland: A Deep Time Journey (other topics)Into Thin Air: A Personal Account of the Mt. Everest Disaster (other topics)
Notes from Underground, White Nights, The Dream of a Ridiculous Man, and Selections from The House of the Dead (other topics)
The Razor’s Edge (other topics)
Into the Wild (other topics)
Authors mentioned in this topic
Annie Dillard (other topics)Robert Macfarlane (other topics)
Robert Macfarlane (other topics)
Julian of Norwich (other topics)
Jon Krakauer (other topics)
Chris was deterred not at all by a sign which said : .... you are trespassing on the US army 's highly restricted ground . !
But this recluse struck a good friendship with Westerberg , a farmer who gave him a job . Later , in a letter to Westerberg , Chris wrote : .... you have one of the highest characters of any man I'd met .
I wish Westerberg could have influenced Chris more in the latter 's course of actions and the outcome 🤔