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Oliver Twist - Group Read 5 > Oliver Twist: Chapters 18 - 25

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message 51: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 30, 2023 12:13PM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8419 comments Mod
Shirley - (I'm just sneaking this in as an edit, as we cross-posted) I really enjoyed your post too - and Bridget's earlier one - thank you both!

Now please let's hear from some of our quieter members, those who do not comment every day, or perhaps have not commented for a while 😊


message 52: by Michael (last edited May 30, 2023 12:11PM) (new) - added it

Michael (michaelk19thcfan) | 145 comments Sam wrote: "Already too longbso I will stop but much more could be said"

For me, feel free to write as much as you can. This commentary, really everyone's, is very enlightening. Sam has a talent to cover, what can be complicated, topics so an amateur like me can even understand.


message 53: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8419 comments Mod
Certainly Sam is always very focused, and articulate. I appreciate that a lot!

So let's hear other's comments on chapter 19, or this installment, please.


Lori  Keeton | 1100 comments I agree with Kathleen that every post is an education! I appreciate Jean’s extra info as it adds so much. I don’t want to be repetitive with some of the comments but will say that it is reassuring to come here after reading and see the same thoughts and things noticed in the text by others.

I also appreciate Jean reminding me that this is an allegory. I always think of CS Lewis’ Narnia tales with allegory and the representations are very obvious - to me anyway. But here, I seem to get caught up reading the story so need to slow down and think about what Oliver and others are representing here. Dickens has so many ideas and techniques etc, that he is working through and I am amazed at his abilities at 25. I agree with Sam, that there are passages that stand out but he is also showing us where his novels are going to go in the future.


message 55: by Beth (last edited May 30, 2023 06:40PM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Beth (rosewoodpip) | 173 comments Ch. 18:

Bionic Jean wrote: ""Chitling" is an odd name: it is a type of offal we don't usually eat nowadays (chiltin', or chitterlings), but was still eaten in some areas of the UK in the 20th century. Poor Tom Chitling!"

In the city where I grew up--in the southern part of the American midwest--chitterlings/chitlins were sold in plastic tubs in the meat department of grocery stores at least until 2001 when I moved away. It was a dish more common among the Black families in the area than other demographics--perhaps a carryover from earlier generations that had made the great migration from the southern states during the Jim Crow era. Anyhow, the gist of this digression is that "we" isn't always "we." :)

Bionic Jean wrote: "And a little more …

Prison Methods"


Since I thought it was tangential to the discussion of OT at the time, I had also posted some information about panopticon style prisons in the Victorian Life thread as message 142 on May 22. It has a couple of links on the sub-subject.

Thanks for the "translations" of the cant/dialect of the thieves' band to all who provided them. I've been listening to the audio, and mostly been trying to gather the gist of the story rather than its word-by-word details. I confess that Master Bates' "when pigs fly" quip (as explained by Jean in message 6) totally passed me by.


message 56: by Anna (new) - rated it 5 stars

Anna | 29 comments Beth wrote: "Ch. 18:

Bionic Jean wrote: ""Chitling" is an odd name: it is a type of offal we don't usually eat nowadays (chiltin', or chitterlings), but was still eaten in some areas of the UK in the 20th cent..."


We called them "cracklings" in my Old World Mennonite farm family.


message 57: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 31, 2023 05:03AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8419 comments Mod
Beth - Thanks for your addition to the "Victorian Life" thread, which I have read with interest.

"we" isn't always "we." - I'm sorry if my syntax wasn't clear. I did not mean the entire world! Anna included the rest of the sentence where I say it is about the UK. Perhaps I should have moved that clause 🙄.

I was giving the information that since Charles Dickens's time, chitterlings (and thus his name "Chitling") were no longer common in the country where he lived and set Oliver Twist. As an English reader talking about an English author, that is my default, but knowing that this group has members worldwide, I do try to be specific, just as I try to explain about our currency (English currency, not UK in this case as there are other coins and notes). I'm aware that chitterlings etc., are used in various cuisines eg. Caribbean, and nearly went on to say that, but it seemed unnecessary.

Now I also know of the two you both mention, thank you; that's interesting. Like Charles Dickens, I am interested in the various traditions and institutions in the USA - or any other country - and how you see them relating to what we read in Oliver Twist. It enriches our read.

Anna - oddly the term "crackling" is used for the skin of roast pork here.


message 58: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 31, 2023 04:28AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8419 comments Mod
Erich - I wanted to add that the sentences about the reptilian Fagin struck me too 😊. Perhaps they impressed other readers as well. As Lori points out, as we read together we can be struck by the same passages and make the same deductions. I've added this passage to our summary. It perfectly illustrates the subhuman aspect of Fagin. And in another interpretation, it could indicate the serpent in the Garden of Eden (although what we are reading about is more of a garden of evil!)

Lori - "there are passages that stand out but he is also showing us where his novels are going to go in the future."

Yes, it's fascinating to "look back" in this way, isn't it? And we can see that the themes and psychological patterns we are familiar with from other novels are already all there!


message 59: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 31, 2023 11:22AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8419 comments Mod
Installment 10

Chapter 20:




"The boy was lying, fast asleep, on a rude bed upon the floor."James Mahoney 1871

Oliver wakes to find a strong pair of shoes next to him. He is pleased until Fagin tells him that he will be taken to Sikes’s place that night, which makes Oliver anxious. Fagin leaves him with a candle for light, and a book to read. He tells Oliver that he will be going with Bill Sikes and warns him:

“He’s a rough man, and thinks nothing of blood when his own is up. Whatever falls out, say nothing; and do what he bids you.”.

Oliver does not undersand, but trembles with fear. And as Oliver waits, he shivers with horror at the book’s bloody tales of famous criminals and murderers:

“The terrible descriptions were so real and vivid, that the sallow pages seemed to turn red with gore; and the words upon them, to be sounded in his ears, as if they were whispered, in hollow murmurs, by the spirits of the dead.”

It frightens Oliver so much that he puts it aside and starts praying to be saved from a life of crime.

Nancy arrives, and Oliver can tell that she is upset, so offers to help her if he can, but she controls herself. Nancy has come to take him away. As it is not yet 11pm, Oliver considers calling for help on the streets. But reading his thoughts on his face, Nancy show him some livid bruises on her neck and arms, and says:

“Don’t let me suffer more for you, just now. If I could help you, I would; but I have not the power … Every word from you is a blow for me.”

Nancy takes his hand, and when they step outside, Oliver is about to call for help, but:

“the girl’s voice was in his ear, beseeching him in such tones of agony to remember her, that he had not the heart to utter it”

and she draws him into the horse-drawn cab which is waiting.

They arrive at Bill Sikes’s place, and Bill Sikes threatens Oliver, and shows him a pistol, issuing dire warnings. Nancy warns Oliver that what Bill Sikes means is that if he causes any trouble at all, he will kill him.



"Oliver in the Grip of Sikes" - Harry Furniss 1910

There is a dish of sheep's heads for for supper, but Oliver cannot eat anything. Bill Sikes tells Nancy to wake him at 5 o’clock, and Oliver takes his cue and lies down to rest on a mattress.

At five in the morning, he is woken and they have a quick breakfast, before Bill Sikes gives him a large rough cape to button over his shoulders:

“pausing to show him with a menacing gesture that he had that same pistol in a side-pocket of his great-coat”

and taking Oliver’s hand firmly in his own, they head out into the early morning hours.
  


message 60: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 31, 2023 05:09AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8419 comments Mod
I found this to be the darkest and most foreboding chapter yet. We began with Oliver mercifully asleep, and right at the end of the previous installments we had read that he:

“looked like death; not death as it shows in shroud and coffin, but in the guise it wears when life has just departed; when a young and gentle spirit has, but an instant, fled to Heaven, and the gross air of the world has not had the time to breathe upon the changing dust it hallowed.”

Another reference to coffins and death! And it is yet another time when Oliver is asleep, and perhaps dreaming. We have had these before. What could it portend? Now, with a new installment, we are in dread of what Oliver is going to be made to do, although he himself is oblivious. This might be a turning point in the young boy’s life!

The passages with Nancy were heartrending. We are learning more about her all the time. She berated Fagin for making her steal for him as a tiny girl, she is a prostitute, and now we see that she is also battered by Bill Sikes. Nancy comes across as much of a victim as Oliver, and we see that Oliver is caught in a moral trap with no exit. Nancy begged him not to make her suffer any more, and we see his quandary. He wants to protect a vulnerable adult, and offers her his help, but he is a child, and easily forced by adult to do as they say.

When we meet Bill Sikes, who is a complete contrast to Nancy, we realise that this is yet another bit of psychological manipulation. Fagin brainwashed him, Nancy (against her will) played good cop, and Bill Sikes is the bad cop.

Their tinned meat supper might have had the trade name “Jemmies”, and yes that is funny since their own “trade” (burglary) uses jemmies (short crowbars). We certainly need a bit of light relief. But aren’t you, like I am, feeling terrorised on Oliver’s behalf by the thug Bill Sikes? I think Nancy is, as she can’t even meet his eyes, as he leads Oliver away.


message 61: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 31, 2023 11:25AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8419 comments Mod
Dickens’s Motifs and Symbols

The Book


Oliver was given reading material, and I’m sure you picked up the parallel here. In an earlier post about the prison theories at the time, I described a then current system of solitary confinement, which was hated by Charles Dickens. Prisoners were incarcerated, and given a Bible to read, the intention being that this would improve their morals and make them better citizens.

Here we have Fagin in the place of the prison guard. Oliver is again temporarily incarcerated, and Fagin’s “bible” is lurid and explicit material about true crimes. No wonder it terrifies young Oliver, after all the threats and stern talking to Fagin has already given him!


message 62: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 31, 2023 11:36AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8419 comments Mod
Dickens’s Motifs and Symbols

The Boots


Another motif from this chapter struck me as being particularly symbolic. Oliver woke to a pair of new boots. Boots, shoes, and footsteps (often allied to stairs) are always worth noticing in Charles Dickens's novels. We’ve already spotted the symbolism of Oliver’s clothes: the ragged ones, then the new outfit given him by Mr. Brownlow, which was snatched by Fagin’s gang. This was followed by the crowning cruel irony of Oliver’s old rags being returned to him.

Strong new boots should be a positive sign, shouldn’t they? But we had a hint of foreshadowing about this in the previous installment, when Oliver polished Dodger’s boots. This is very likely an autobiographical flashback. We know that Charles Dickens worked pasting labels on blacking bottles as a child, and that this ignominy of this affected him all his life. He felt that working in Warren’s Blacking Factory was a trap he would never get out of. Now we have Oliver polishing boots for a member of a gang. And who leads this gang? Fagin—called after Bob Fagan—the lad who had been so kind to him in the factory.

It seems oddly ungrateful to use the name of another child in Warren’s Blacking Factory in this way, and especially the only one who had shown kindness, so it is worth pondering.

Being privy to John Forster's biography of him, as well as all his later works means we know just how vehemently Charles Dickens hated what had been done to him in making him a “slave” in this way, rather than getting an education like his elder sister Fanny. So strong was Charles Dickens's sense that his future potential and station in life was being denied to him, that he probably resented the lad who was trying to make it bearable for him, because Bob Fagan was in effect—even if not intentionally—trying to keep him in that lowly position. That would be how Charles Dickens saw it. Bob Fagan showed goodness and virtue, but Charles Dickens could not bear to recognise this in his nightmare world, because if he accepted that, then he might be subdued and sucked down into the mire of anonymity.

So Charles Dickens associated the good boy Bob Fagan with his worst nightmare; the world of the blacking factory, and transferred his hatred of that experience in creating Fagin, the evil criminal. He went on to to put these hints of shoes, blacking and so on into his future novels. In all his novels Charles Dickens never strayed far from his own life.

What we now wonder, is how these shoes will be significant. Fagin warns Oliver about Bill Sikes’s temper and violence. Nevertheless it is he, just as it was Bob Fagan, who encourages Oliver (or the young Charles) to accept his new life, because what is to come is inevitable.

And this fills us with foreboding.


message 63: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8419 comments Mod
Your thoughts on this chapter?


message 64: by Beth (last edited May 31, 2023 08:28AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Beth (rosewoodpip) | 173 comments Bionic Jean wrote: "Anna - oddly the term "crackling" is used for the skin of roast pork here."

Same here. In the same midwestern city where chitterlings were readily available in groceries, cracklings (or cracklins) were pork skin, especially when it had been deep-fried in small pieces and served as a snack food. Not a low-fat treat!


message 65: by Anna (new) - rated it 5 stars

Anna | 29 comments OK, I may have confused the two :)


message 66: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited May 31, 2023 09:12AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8419 comments Mod
So back to Oliver Twist. We've had an incredibly emotional chapter. What did everyone think? How do you view Nancy now? And the other two who have Oliver's future in their hands? Should Oliver have made a break for it? The action is really hotting up now, as we can tell by the uncharacteristically short and to the point title of the next one!

Follow-up observations on writing style, characterisation, mood; perhaps the dream subtext and significance of names with the author's past are all welcome, as are many aspects of this chapter which I have not touched on. I look forward to your comments, and as always, trust everyone will keep focused, please, to allow others to catch up 😊


Lori  Keeton | 1100 comments This is the first chapter that has really scared me. Sikes threatening Oliver with the gun to do what he asks or he will kill him is treacherous. He clearly believes in the fear philosophy of getting your people to do what you want them to. He obviously doesn't care whether Oliver has any esteem for him or respect. Most people will be happy to follow a leader who is merciful and gracious when you mess up or disagree. The mood got very, very dark and horrifying.

I am not surprised that Oliver didn't try to get away from Nancy. Nancy opened up to him showing him what she has done for him and endured for him. Now Oliver is obliged to keep her safe but I also don't believe that it is in his nature to directly do something to cause harm to another especially one that has shown him kindness. But Jean did bring up the moral dilemma that Oliver has found himself in. I believe that he will do the right thing in a given situation even if it will be a detriment to him.

I am very fearful for Nancy. She is not in a very good situation right now and she is showing that she has compassion for Oliver who is an outcast as she is. I feel as though these two might find a way to be the way out for each other.

One thing I keep thinking about is no matter what clothes or shoes Oliver is given to wear which appear to give him a different identity on the outside, he doesn't ever change on the inside. He is still the epitome of the innocent boy who will believe in right and justice. He believes right now that there must be a way for him to get out of his current situation and that shows hope for a better life.

There are also many Bible verses that talk about sleep as death and waking to a new everlasting life

Daniel 12:2 says "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt."

I can only hope that Oliver's dreams are a part of his story that will eventually be revealed as a new life outside of and away from this gang of thieves.


Shirley (stampartiste) | 493 comments I think we've all been worried that evil would overcome good (ie, Oliver would become a criminal like his captors). Instead, I'm seeing where Oliver's goodness is changing his captors: Nancy is developing a soft heart toward Oliver. And most astonishingly, Oliver is changing Fagin.

At the end of Chapter 19, Fagin wanted to wake Oliver up to speak with him, but when he found him sleeping with a look so near to death, Fagin said he would wait until tomorrow, "turning softly away." Then in Chapter 20, Fagin calls Oliver by his name for the first time and gives him advice for staying safe with Bill Sikes. I really think Fagin is developing some affection for Oliver - so in essence, Fagin's heart is also opening up.

This gives me hope that Oliver, and hopefully some of his current companions, may be redeemed.


message 69: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8419 comments Mod
Wow, these two comments are so insightful! Thank you so much Lori and Shirley. There are so many aspects to look at in a novel by Charles Dickens.


Kathleen | 499 comments This is a frightening chapter, but what you say about the boots, Jean--I felt a sort of hope that these new shoes will start Oliver on a journey of getting away, even if things might have to get even worse before that happens.


message 71: by Jim (new) - rated it 4 stars

Jim Puskas (wyenotgo) | 194 comments Further to the matter of symbolism, I find the meal of sheep's heads offered to Oliver eerily unsettling. Is this perhaps intended to represent his "last supper" as a free man — or potentially even as a living person?


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Sue | 1170 comments Sadly, I don’t see Fagin’s heart softening so much as I see him hoping that he will soon have a very useful new member of his team who will need no more cajoling or force to work for his keep. I think Fabinho sees Oliver’s innocence as a very useful tool once it has been suitably corrupted. Oliver will still look innocent even after a job with Sikes—hopefully.


message 73: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Jun 01, 2023 06:12AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8419 comments Mod
Jim wrote: "Further to the matter of symbolism, I find the meal of sheep's heads offered to Oliver eerily unsettling. Is this perhaps intended to represent his "last supper" as a free man — or potentially even..."

An interesting thought Jim! Although it has to be said that sheep's heads were were a common enough dish in Britain at the time, and common enough to be tinned. Tinned food were still quite new, having only been around since 1811.

Even Charles Dickens's wife Catherine included them as ingredients in her recipe book Dinner for Dickens. the Culinary History of Mrs Charles Dickens's Menu Books Including a Transcript of What Shall We Have for Dinner?' by Lady Maria Clutterbuck. It comes as quite a shock to read "Take a sheep's head ..." (especially when you are vegetarian as I am 😆)

but I do like the idea of possible symbolism via the food here, just as Fagin toasting sausages (very likely not a kosher food!) with his devilish pitchfork, was a double symbol.


message 74: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Jun 02, 2023 04:14AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8419 comments Mod
Chapter 21:

“It was a cheerless morning when they got into the street; blowing and raining hard; and the clouds looking dull and stormy. The night had been very wet: large pools of water had collected in the road: and the kennels were overflowing.

As day breaks, Bill Sikes and Oliver make their way south west through London. They pass through Smithfield market. It is market day, and Oliver is amazed at the commotion of people and animals:

“It was market-morning. The ground was covered, nearly ankle-deep, with filth and mire; a thick steam, perpetually rising from the reeking bodies of the cattle, and mingling with the fog, which seemed to rest upon the chimney-tops, hung heavily above…

Countrymen, butchers, drovers, hawkers, boys, thieves, idlers, and vagabonds of every low grade, were mingled together in a mass; the whistling of drovers (cattle drivers), the barking dogs, the bellowing and plunging of the oxen, the bleating of sheep, the grunting and squeaking of pigs, the cries of hawkers, the shouts, oaths, and quarrelling on all sides“


The public inns are open, but Bill Sikes passes them by. They travel all day, walking at first until they getting a ride in a cart, with Bill Sikes pretending that Oliver is his son. The cart stops just south of Brentford, an inn called the “Coach and Horses”, before another long walk. Just outside a town, Oliver notices a large house with the letters “Hampton” on the wall. Sikes takes Oliver back into the town, to to an inn, where nobody disturbs them, and they have some food.

After that Bill Sikes smokes pipe after pipe, and Oliver falls asleep. When he is woken up by a push from Bill Sikes, Oliver sees that he is in conversation with a labouring man, over a pint of ale. It becomes clear to us that both men are tipsy and Sikes has paid for the ale. He asks the man for a lift to Lower Halliford.

Outside a horse and cart are waiting, with a hostler (stableman) in attendance.



"The horse, whose health had been drunk" - Frederic W. Pailthorpe 1886

Bill Sikes and the labourer are very merry by now, and joke about the horse. They start off, and:

“The night was very dark. A damp mist rose from the river, and the marshy ground about; and spread itself over the dreary fields. It was piercing cold, too; all was gloomy and black …

Oliver sat huddled together, in a corner of the cart; bewildered with alarm and apprehension; and figuring strange objects in the gaunt trees, whose branches waved grimly to and fro, as if in some fantastic joy at the desolation of the scene.“


They pass Sunbury Church at seven o’clock, and carry on for 2 more miles to a place where:

“a dark yew-tree with graves beneath it. There was a dull sound of falling water not far off; and the leaves of the old tree stirred gently in the night wind. It seemed like quiet music for the repose of the dead.”

Here they get off the coach, but there is still more walking “in mud and darkness, through gloomy lanes and over cold open wastes”.

When Oliver sees that they are near the foot of a bridge, turning down a bank with a river just below them, he turns sick with fear. He feels sure that Bill Sikes has taken him to a lonely place to murder him!

But then he sees that after this long walk, and now at a good distance from any town, they are standing before “a solitary house: all ruinous and decayed … dark, dismantled: and, to all appearance, uninhabited.” Softly, Bill Sikes leads the boy inside.



"Sikes, with Oliver's hand still in his, softly approached the low porch" - James Mahoney 1871


message 75: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Jun 01, 2023 06:19AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8419 comments Mod
What a long dismal journey! I’m not surprised that by the end Oliver thinks he is about to be killed. Lots of symbolism here too! Plus I've included extracts from some of the best descriptions.

I also wonder what Oliver could have made of all the different places they passed through. This journey cover the entire social spectrum from the East End slums to rural areas of all type, passing through the busy affairs of the City, the cacophony of the market, the stately homes of the privileged in West London, the cheerful village inns and run down properties. It’s all there, as if Oliver has journeyed through life itself. We dread what is in store for him now.

The point of view is unusual. Sometimes it is clear that this is an omniscient narrator, as all the names of locations are used. At other times it feels very impressionistic, as we are reading Oliver’s reactions to all the new sights, sounds and smells. The descriptions in this chapter are very powerful!


message 76: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Jun 01, 2023 06:34AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8419 comments Mod
The Journey

Shepperton is an urban village in Surrey, between the old market town of Chertsey and Sunbury-on-Thames.

Shepperton https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shepperton

Chertsey https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chertsey

Bill Sikes and Oliver are 15-18 miles southwest of London. It takes them all long day to reach their destination, during which they walk or ride through many districts in the city and beyond. The detailed catalogue of this journey is extraordinary! However, because many of his readers would have been aware of each district, its location, and its character, Charles Dickens tells us them all as we read, expecting his readers to follow the characters’ journey in their minds.

They walk from Bethnal Green, starting to walk in the dark old neighbourhoods well to the east of central London. It is getting light but is still foggy as they reach Smithfield market, where livestock—mostly cattle and sheep—were sold and slaughtered; Charles Dickens calls attention to the “reeking bodies of the cattle”.

Then they walk through the central area: what we call “The City” of London, where all the business and high finance is done. When they get to the wealthy area around Hyde Park corner and Kensington, Bill Sikes feels it is safe to slow the pace.

When they are in a cart, they pass through middle class areas such as Hammersmith, Chiswick, Kew Bridge, and Brentford, and on through the rural areas, as they ride further west. This dark, confusing, and threatening atmosphere contrasts starkly with the sun-drenched more upmarket suburbs such as Kensington and Chiswick.

When they arrive in Chertsey, Sikes leads Oliver across a bridge built in 1780 to connect Chertsey with the London road. Oliver is not aware of where they are, but yet again, Charles Dickens’s understanding of the geography of the area feeds the logic of events. I have a feeling we may cross this highly symbolic bridge, or perhaps see some of these places, again!


message 77: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Jun 01, 2023 06:36AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8419 comments Mod
Bill Sikes

We now see another side of Bill Sikes, just as we did with Nancy. He can put on a pleasant face when he wants to: when it is necessary for his plans. Bill Sikes is quite agreeable with the two men who offer them rides. He also treats Oliver with some care, allowing the boy to rest and sleep at times. This could, of course, be purely practical; after all, he needs Oliver to be awake and at his best when called on to perform during the burglary. But it might also indicate that there is still a speck of humanity in an otherwise brutal and inhumane character. Time will tell.


message 78: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Jun 01, 2023 06:34AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8419 comments Mod
Over to you!


message 79: by Michael (last edited Jun 01, 2023 06:50AM) (new) - added it

Michael (michaelk19thcfan) | 145 comments I question the choice of Sikes deciding to go through the Smithfield on a market day to start a long journey across London. If I needed to walk across Manhattan, the last place I would want to go through is Times Square. There must have been a detour to go around the Smithfield but that would deny Dickens the opportunity to describe the chaotic and frankly disgusting scene.

How did Sikes even know about this house way across London? He must have a network, as implied from the text, all over the greater London area looking for houses to rob. In a way, quite an impressive operation.


Jenny Clark | 388 comments One thing that has struck me since we met Fagin and Sikes- they seam obsessed with Oliver. I understand them wanting more thiefs to make more money, and the self preservation inherent in not wanting him to "peach" on them, but why do they need Oliver in particular?


message 81: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Jun 01, 2023 01:14PM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8419 comments Mod
Fagin says it is because Oliver has such an innocent face, Jenny. 🤔


Bridget | 1015 comments Jean, you quoted some of the best scenic descriptions of this chapter. The passage that starts with "It was market-morning. The ground was covered nearly ankle-deep" reminded me of the descriptions he was yet to write in the later novels. These detailed descriptions of the surroundind scenery are, IMHO, quintessential Dickens. It's fascinating to read this first novel and think about a young 25-year-old Dickens already possessing so much of his genius.


message 83: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8419 comments Mod
I agree Bridget. It was tricky to just select short quotations, as all the descriptions were so good! This isn't what you expect from a court reporter, who no doubt have talents of speed and accuracy. But Charles Dickens clearly had something else too, right from the start 😊


Lori  Keeton | 1100 comments I loved the visuals and sensory writing of this chapter. Here Oliver is walking through London, once again, as he did when he first arrived. I could understand Oliver’s amazement and wonder and also how frightened he was. Think of the 100’s of people he could have cried out to, except for that darn pistol that Sikes continues to remind him of.

The weather is dark and gloomy and the fog penetrates the night. It appears that most of the action is taking place at night when the weather is bad. Of course this is best for their line of work.

Sikes bestows yet another name upon Oliver in this chapter- Ned -maybe just to remind him that he is not himself any longer but must become what the gang need and want him to be.


message 85: by Sue (new) - rated it 4 stars

Sue | 1170 comments I was struck by the scene where Oliver appeared to read the sign for Hampton. Has he been taught to read at some point or is Dickens reading through Oliver’s eyes?


message 86: by Beth (last edited Jun 01, 2023 11:53PM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Beth (rosewoodpip) | 173 comments Jean mentions John Bayley's essay "Things as They Really Are" in messages 36 and 40. I read the essay, and would recommend it if you don't mind spoilers. (Obviously, I don't.) Like many academic pieces, it presumes you've read everything. All of Oliver Twist, all of Dickens' works, all of the major pieces of literature... well, maybe it doesn't go quite that far. ;)

(Note that Jean was not recommending that we read this essay now, and at least one of her responses was to someone whom she knows has already read the entire book. I decided to read it.)

A feeling of claustrophobia has struck me throughout Oliver Twist so far, and Bayley eloquently describes it in terms of people-as-animals, huddling in their dens, living in (what I'd describe as) a kind of hardened, oyster-like isolation: "We are apt to forget how early-Victorian society, the society of laissez-faire, took for granted conditions of individual privacy and isolation. It was a society where each unit, each family and household, led their secret lives with an almost neurotic antipathy to external interference."

Thanks for pointing it out, Jean. It hasn't overwritten my reading of OT, if that was a concern.


Susan | 12 comments Sue wrote: "I was struck by the scene where Oliver appeared to read the sign for Hampton. Has he been taught to read at some point or is Dickens reading through Oliver’s eyes?"

I too was wondering whether Oliver had been taught to read as his early years seemed to be a misery of beatings, starvation and not much else. Obviously he can read because the book Fagin left with him scared him so.


Claudia | 935 comments Beth wrote: "Jean mentions John Bayley's essay "Things as They Really Are" in messages 36 and 40. I read the essay, and would recommend it if you don't mind spoilers. (Obviously, I don't.) Like many academic pi..."
I agree with you - and Bailey -, and Lori too, on claustrophobia. I am slightly claustrophobic and indeed night and fog are very efficient instruments of outdoor imprisonment. Walking into the night is a weird feeling. Moreover, Oliver does not know where he is brought to. As Lori reminds us, his present travel with Sykes echoes his first walk into London when he met the Artful Dodger.


message 89: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Jun 02, 2023 06:57AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8419 comments Mod
Lori wrote: "Sikes bestows yet another name upon Oliver in this chapter- Ned -maybe just to remind him that he is not himself any longer but must become what the gang need and want him to be...."

Great point Lori!

Claudia - "night and fog are very efficient instruments of outdoor imprisonment." Another very perceptive observation. Claustrophobia, terror and isolation; we have it all.

Beth - I am glad you read the essay by John Bayley. Yes, I only expected those who know the story to to read the essay, which is why I wrote such a long post crystallising some of the theories without spoilers.

All literary criticism is like that, sadly, as well as many literary biographies, which is why it's best left until afterwards unless someone is willing to paraphrase an edited version of it, as I did.


message 90: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Jun 02, 2023 06:26AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8419 comments Mod
Sue and Susan - Yes, I agree. 🙄 In fact the point about Oliver's reading bothers me every time I read Oliver Twist! I can imagine that a kind adult inmate, or child who had not spent all their life in the workhouse, might have introduced him to the letters of the alphabet, so that he could read "Hampton", but not a book. On the other hand the Victorian "Penny Bloods" (see the article I linked to) and other cheap literature was always illustrated, so perhaps he could get the gist of the story from there.

We know that Charles Dickens was to a large extent self-taught, but he did have a mother and servant who taught him the basics. But it's a leap of faith! And one of those occasions where we have to remember that Oliver is more of an ideal of goodness and innocence than a real child.


message 91: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Jun 05, 2023 02:55AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8419 comments Mod
Chapter 22:

Inside the house Bill Sikes and Oliver find Toby Crackit and Barney, the waiter at the public-house on Saffron Hill. Barney is asleep but Bill Sikes wakes him by throwing a “boot jack” (a shoehorn) at him. Toby Crackit is lying on an old couch, and smoking a long clay pipe, while he admires his boots:

description

"Toby Crackit" - Sol Eytinge Jr 1888

“He was dressed in a smartly-cut snuff-coloured coat, with large brass buttons; an orange neckerchief; a coarse, staring, shawl-pattern waistcoat; and drab breeches … he had no very great quantity of hair, either upon his head or face; but what he had, was of a reddish dye, and tortured into long corkscrew curls, through which he occasionally thrust some very dirty fingers, ornamented with large common rings. He was a trifle above the middle size, and apparently rather weak in the legs”

They are given food washed down by spirits, which Oliver has to force himself to drink. They then sleep for a few hours until Toby Crackit wakes them at 1:30 a.m. After dressing warmly in dark clothing and making sure they have all their housebreaking equipment, Bill Sikes and Toby Crackit lead Oliver out into the night, while Barney goes back to sleep:

“It was now intensely dark. The fog was much heavier than it had been in the early part of the night; and the atmosphere was so damp, that, although no rain fell, Oliver’s hair and eyebrows, within a few minutes after leaving the house, had become stiff with the half-frozen moisture that was floating about.”

The three walk through a nearby town and beyond it until they reach a house. The men lift Oliver over the wall that surrounds it. Oliver “well-nigh mad with grief and terror”, suddenly understands their plan, and begs them to let him go. “A mist came before his eyes; the cold sweat stood upon his ashy face; his limbs failed him; and he sank upon his knees.”

Bill Sikes angrily pulls out his gun, but Toby stops Bill from shooting Oliver, because it would make a noise: gunfire would draw attention. He threatens to smash Oliver’s head instead, if he doesn’t behave. Toby Crackit kneels down, and Bill Sikes stands on his back to reach the small lattice window in the scullery, which they know has been left open.



"Directly I leave go of you, do your work. Hark!"James Mahoney 1871



"The Attempted Burglary" - F.O.C. Darley 1888

Then Bill Sikes tells Oliver how to find and open the front door, and slips the boy through the window, reminding him that he is within shooting range all the time. Oliver, having decided to run up the stairs and alert the inhabitants, moves forward.

However Bill Sikes shouts, “Come back!” and Oliver sees two men appear at the top of the stairs. There is a flash and a loud noise.



"The Burglary" - George Cruikshank 1888



"The Burglary" - Harry Furniss 1910

Sikes pulls Oliver back through by his collar, urging:

“Give me a shawl here. They’ve hit him. Quick! How the boy bleeds!”

Oliver is carried off in the midst of the loud ringing of a bell, more gunshots and shouting.

“And then, the noises grew confused in the distance; and a cold deadly feeling crept over the boy’s heart; and he saw or heard no more.”



"The wounded Oliver thrown into the Ditch" - Harry Furniss 1910

This ends installment 10


message 92: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Jun 02, 2023 06:31AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8419 comments Mod
What a cliffhanger! Has Oliver been shot? He is bleeding and has passed out, but I can’t think of any other novel where a small child has been shot like this. And the original readers would have had to wait a whole month to find out what happens next …

Is Oliver dead? Or badly wounded? I wondered at first why the brutes didn’t just leave him there and scarper, but I suppose that they would be afraid that Oliver might “peach” on them. I’m not sure what they intend to do with him though. Somehow I can’t see Fagin’s gang making good nurses, surrounded by all that filth, dirt, and general slovenliness. Perhaps they will just leave him to die. Or since Bill Sikes seems to be caring a little more about his welfare, perhaps he will find a hospital or workhouse and dump Oliver outside? Or put him back in the cellar and let him die from infected wounds, starve, or get cholera or typhoid, or …


message 93: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Jun 02, 2023 06:39AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8419 comments Mod
Victorian Burglars

“Flash” Toby Crackit is despicable; his only reason for not killing the boy outright seems to be that it might make a noise! Toby Crackit is such a great name, but he’s certainly nothing like the kindly Mr. Cratchit in the later novella A Christmas Carol!

Toby Crackit is Bill Sikes’s partner in crime, and as with many characters, his name is a clue to his occupation. What do you think he “cracks”? In the early 1800s, “crack” meant “burglary”, and we know that ”flash“ means he is a bit of a swell, or a dandy. Here is a good article about ”Housebreakers and Burglars” in Victorian London: http://www.victorianlondon.org/crime/...

It talks about the servants sometimes being in league with the thieves, as Toby Crackit was trying to arrange, and there are details of all the equipment we read about: barkers, persuaders, crape, keys, centre-bits, darkies and crowbars.


message 94: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Jun 02, 2023 06:44AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8419 comments Mod
Writing Style'

This is a shortish chapter, but one with much sense of urgency, action and atmosphere. In fact the entire installment has that urgent sense of moving on, with the latter two titles the briefest I can remember in all Charles Dickens’s novels: “The Expedition”, and “The Burglary”. This last one is like a continuation of chapter 21, with the darkness, the damp mists and the seemingly endless dreary fields. This is partly because Oliver is still completely in the dark about what is happening, until the truly horrific end sequence. Also, we have such powerful descriptions again here. In this installment we’ve seen early examples of Charles Dickens using the pathetic fallacy, as the weather once again matches the mood of Sikes and his partners in crime.


message 95: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Jun 02, 2023 06:49AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8419 comments Mod
Another motif - Oliver’s face

Again we have a reference to Oliver’s face, which has been a continual theme so far. Fagin considers Oliver to be a unique asset to their gang; he will be a good source of income for a while. We’ve seen that Fagin is an adept at manipulating children, and how he has spent a long time “turning” or brainwashing Oliver, because nobody will believe anything villainous of him, as he looks so innocent. And in today’s chapter, as soon as Toby Crackit sees Oliver, he says:

“Wot an inwalable boy that’ll make, for the old ladies’ pockets in chapels! His mug is a fortin’ to him.”

Oliver’s face is worth a fortune. And it must indeed be remarkable, if this is the first thing that strikes people (even in candlelight).

Sadly, the Victorians believed that it was possible to tell a person’s deviancy or immorality by their physical appearance. This was particularly harmful towards woman and especially so when the question of sexual morality was concerned.We can see this in the illustrations of Nancy, which make her look like a raddled old hag, and certainly not like a young girl of 17! And also Dodger, who when we first meet him is described as having “little, sharp, ugly eyes”, which reminds us that the eyes are said to be the window to the soul.


message 96: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Jun 02, 2023 09:41AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8419 comments Mod
For our experts in religious subtext, do you think Oliver is sacrificing himself in this chapter, like a Christ figure? I seem to remember that there is a parable about the “thief in the night” in the Bible. Doesn’t it say that Christ will come like a thief in a dark house, when everyone is asleep? If this is what was in Charles Dickens’s mind, then the break-in will be a big turning point in the plot, and a “Day of Judgment” might be coming soon for all the thieves, even the one who carefully stays out of immediate danger, Fagin.


message 97: by Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess" (last edited Jun 02, 2023 06:53AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bionic Jean (bionicjean) | 8419 comments Mod
Several artists chose to illustrate today’s thrilling chapter, and I like this final one by F.O.C. Darley, for its “film noir” feel. (By the way, I discovered an additional one by James Mahoney on a different site, so added that to chapter 21.)

As this is the end of installment 10, we have a break now, just as the original readers did, to ponder on events, catch up, and make observations. Installment 11 will begin on Monday with chapter 23, and again it will have 3 chapters.


message 98: by Erich C (last edited Jun 02, 2023 09:41AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Erich C | 643 comments Bionic Jean wrote: "I like this final one by F.O.C. Darley, for its “film noir” feel"

I agree that this is my favorite illustration of the group because it is so dark and atmospheric.

I was also going to comment about how Nancy is depicted in the illustrations, and it is a great point that Victorian readers would expect criminality to be evident on someone like a prostitute. As I read, I imagine her as a fairly fresh-looking young woman, someone who can pass for a respectable person when she needs to, as when she is sent with her apron, basket, and key to retrieve Oliver in an earlier chapter.

Returning to the book that Fagin gave Oliver to read earlier in this installment, I noticed that Dickens writes that "the pages were soiled and thumbed with use," showing that it was a great favorite with the criminals. The stories that end with a hanging and gibbet would represent a sort of crucifixion/martyrdom, especially if the executed criminal had died without "peaching" on his comrades!


Werner | 285 comments Bionic Jean wrote: "For our experts in religious subtext, do you think Oliver is sacrificing himself in this chapter. like a Christ figure? I seem to remember that there is a parable about the “thief in the night” in ..."

Christ is recorded in the Synoptic Gospels as warning his hearers that the coming of the Son of Man (at the final consummation of history) will be "like a thief in the night." In context, the idea of the comparison is that it will be unexpected, just as a visit from a thief is typically unexpected. In other words, those most in danger of judgment will be smugly oblivious to the possibility that any disruption of their comfortable routine could happen.

I'm not really an "expert in religious subtext," and the eight-year-old child I was when I read this wasn't the most perceptive observer of religious symbolism. But even considering the story as a Christian adult, I don't think there's a conscious intention here to present that symbolism. A good deal of literature includes a burglary or two; we shouldn't read every instance of these as "thief in the night" symbolism unless there's some specific reason to, in the form of clear literary clues. I don't see those here. If anybody winds up in danger of judgment from this episode, it will be the housebreakers, not (as in Jesus' words) the householder.


message 100: by Lori (last edited Jun 02, 2023 10:14AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Lori  Keeton | 1100 comments I agree with Werner on the Christ figure symbolism. Christ was a sacrifice for all sins and I’m not able to come up with a parallel for Oliver’s sacrifice. Who would he be the ultimate sacrifice for? I’m not sure.

However, I think maybe the better question is how Dickens is inspired by Bunyan’s Pilgrim’s Progress in creating Oliver’s Progress. Christian’s story was a spiritual journey which led to salvation. However I don’t see Dickens taking Oliver on that same path but one that has him involved in many perils that produce a Good Samaritan to rescue him. I will be interested to see what Dickens will do to advance Oliver’s journey. I think he will have to remain innocent though.


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