Group Reads Discussions 2023: "The Spear Cuts Through Water" Discuss Everything *Spoilers*

[SFFBC, Ancillary Mod]

Come chat everything Spear Cuts!

Some questions to get us started:

1. What did you think of the story structure?
2. What did you think of the world?
3. Do you think this was myth? Metaphor? Delusion? Or history?
4. What worked or didn't for you?

Non-spoiler thread here: First impressions

There is also a buddy read thread

[Rachel]

1. I am a sucker for weird structure and this absolutely KILLED. Second person! Omniscient narration! Framing devices! Theatre as a framing device! Swoon.

But my favourite. My favourite. Was the italic intrusion of the minor characters into the narrative, particularly the voices of the characters who appear only to be killed. It's such a brilliant way of humanizing the narrative. Everyone matters. Everyone has agency and personhood even in the great sweep of history and mythic events. Every death ends a world.

2. Brilliantly inventive and vivid. I'd have loved it for the worldbuilding alone. The Inverted Theatre, the Moon being unstitched from the sky, the tortoises, all of it.

3. If it's about one thing, it's about the ways in which history gets made. And in case the reader misses it, the historical in-joke about how they were just really good warriors in arms makes it obvious. All history contains myth and all myth contains history.

4. It's flawless. Everything worked. Structure, prose, character, worldbuilding, themes. Ever since I started it I have been screaming at everyone I know to read it so that I'm not alone.

[Nicci]

Rachel wrote: "1. I am a sucker for weird structure and this absolutely KILLED. Second person! Omniscient narration! Framing devices! Theatre as a framing device! Swoon.

But my favourite. My favourite. Was the i..."

I saw this post on my feed. For once, I was trying to stay true to my reading list schedule. But reading your post, Rachel, I'm dropping my two books to start reading The Spears. I love, love the Vanished Birds. I think I will be falling in love with Simon J.'s newest book.

[Sarah, The Unsettled]

I finished!

I loved the structure. I have never read anything like it and think it was expertly executed. I loved the way it played with first, second and third person, and though I think it would have been a little easier to follow had I read a physical version, I didn’t find it that much more difficult to follow listening.

I thought the world building was intricate and detailed. I did wish it had been a little clearer regarding the animals from the start. I found myself questioning which animals were actual animals and which ones were people. (The peacocks for example are the sons of the First Terror, and for awhile I thought the tortoises were people in tortoise masks, but eventually figured out my mistake, I thought the Green Apes were actual apes, but was unsure about the Silver Monkeys. I will also note this may just be me, as I read part one months ago and had to put it down for a bit due to the formatting of the ebook I had.)

I still do not know what to make of question 3. It felt like it could be based on a real-world myth, and I was kind of disappointed there wasn’t an authors note to say where he got his inspiration from.

I love, love, loved all the parts with Keema and Jun (apologies if I spelled them wrong.) I am a sucker for a well done love story and this was no different. I was really happy at the end when it is noted, “but you are unsatisfied. I thought this was a love story.” And I was nodding my head and agreeing and hoping it wouldn’t end for them that way. 😂 I also loved the current day parts told in 2nd person.

I was less enchanted with the side treks regarding some of the Terrors and Shan. Found myself tuning out a little bit there. I understand why they were included in the overall narrative but it felt like those parts could have been trimmed a bit.

And the writing is beautiful. I remember being blown away by the writing in his first book and the writing here might be even better.

Very glad SFFBC prompted me to pick it up again. Will have to track down a hardcover or paperback to add to my shelf.

[Jessica]

I finished The Spear Cuts Through Water. I am a little ambivalent about this one. The mastery of the writing and the complex narrative structure are impressive. However, I found it somewhat challenging to read due to the structure, and I feel like the framing story increased the distance between the reader and the story. The story was mostly pretty engaging, but it lost me a bit towards the end when the warriors went to the theater and then went to seek the 3rd terror. The story was pretty brutal (there is a lot of violence, torture, cruelty, etc), to the point that I put it down a couple of times for a day or so, and I tagged it as horror in addition to fantasy. The 1st person interjections allow the thoughts and intentions of even minor characters to enter the story, which rarely happens in history, and also means that the book is haunted by the voices of the dead. It was good, but not an easy read, and sometimes I appreciated it more than I enjoyed it.

[a.g.e. montagner]

I meant to post here for a while but I've been busy travelling.
Meanwhile I'm nearly halfway through, towards the end of The Second Day.

Are we not using spoiler tags in this discussion?

Based on the reviews, I was expecting a less understated beginning, but a character that strikes matches on her legs yet needs her cigarettes licked... The novel hooks you from page one. And when the story actually moves to the Inverted Theatre, immediately breaking the fourth wall for its spectators... This actually has nothing to do with the novel, or Elizabethan drama for that matter, but THIS is what I was looking for when I first read A Midsummer Night's Dream, decades ago. Just mindblowing.

The back and forth between the various narrative planes is surprisingly straightforward and, in my experience, strengthens the power of the story.
Being reminded of "your lola" in the middle of a scene might initially break the stride but I think Jiménez wants the reader to hold all planes at once — you are being told this story by your lola, and also witnessing it as a dance on the stage of the Inverted Theatre (the metahor of dancing comes up often).

And once the reader is accostumed to this, Jiménez starts moving forwards all planes at once: your lola whithers and dies, your father looses his marbles...

Both the storytelling and the worldbuilding are exquisite.
Jiménez avoids the classic tropes of fantasy and insteads gives us... psyonic tortoises whose power borders on insanity, a patriarchal royal family who are literal demigods, and what looks like a refreshingly Asian background.

[Georgann]

While I loved the way the story is told, with total agreement with what everyone else has said, I was put off by the brutality of it. Just so casual and awful. But I was determined to get through it, even tho it kept getting worse - until I got to page 306 "that Lubuu was eating my finger" I gave up. *sigh*

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

no tags needed here! spoil away!

[a.g.e. montagner]

Thanks, Our Fairy Mod Mother!
;)

Georgann wrote: "While I loved the way the story is told, with total agreement with what everyone else has said, I was put off by the brutality of it. Just so casual and awful."

I meant to write about this aspect in my next post. I'm still trying to process it, and I'm sure there'll be more in three final Days. My perception is that the violence is so common place and the tortures so elaborate as to become the most unreal facet of the novel. On the other hand we witness this violence from the victim's point of view, for the most part, which makes it worse. Clearly, power (as opposed, say, to government) is a theme.

[Bobby]

1. What did you think of the story structure?

I thought the way the book was structured was genius. What a skilled author to be able to pull it off. At first it kind of reminded me of a William Faulkner stream of consciousness novel I recently read but after I got into it I was able to follow the different levels more easily than the Faulkner book.

2. What did you think of the world?

The world seemed unreal and it was never clear to me if any of it was part of our world and yet with the sort of dreamlike unreality of it there was still enough detail and explanation to be satisfying.

3. Do you think this was myth? Metaphor? Delusion? Or history?

Yes :)

4. What worked or didn't for you?

I just liked the complexity and originality and rhythm of it. Around the middle of the book it dragged a little for me and I started thinking about when it would be done. Sort of like the Two Towers part of LOTR but shorter. But then it picked up and I enjoyed the ending.

[Ellen]

1. What did you think of the story structure?
I really liked it after I got the hang of it.

2. What did you think of the world?
Still thinking about it

3. Do you think this was myth? Metaphor? Delusion? Or history?
A bit of all. The Third Terror definitely reminded me of the Minotaur from Greek mythology.

4. What worked or didn't for you?
I loved the presentation of the story as a play

I found the violence jarring at times but it fit the story.

[Georgann]

a.g.e. montagner wrote: "Thanks, Our Fairy Mod Mother!
;)

Georgann wrote: "While I loved the way the story is told, with total agreement with what everyone else has said, I was put off by the brutality of it. Just so cas..."
Yes, I agree. Maybe it was adding the victim's point of view...I don't know. Just too much for me!

[Jakub]

I'm extremely grateful to everyone who recommended this book. If it weren't for the monthly reading selection in this club, I might never have discovered it. And let me tell you, it's truly one of the best books I've ever read—I loved every single moment, even though it was brutal at times.

[Bonnie]

Between the fingers and bloodletting here, and Yellowjackets and From on TV!
😳

[Bonnie]

Are Granjo and Lola real words, or made up for the book?

[Olga]

Jessica wrote: "I finished The Spear Cuts Through Water. I am a little ambivalent about this one. The mastery of the writing and the complex narrative structure are impressive. However, I found it ...
It was good, but not an easy read, and sometimes I appreciated it more than I enjoyed it."

Yes! That! Totally can see where all the praises come from, but for me the book was far from enjoyable. All the constant gore and foul smells (perfectly described, mind you, so I almost could smell them) made me want to just be done with the book.

Also, (and maybe it's again the point that I didn't get), but how getting rid of the Emperor and Terrors and stopping the Water wave made the life of the people better? For me the part when the Five Families took over and then the Kingdom from the North invaded made no sense, because average villagers continued to die at approximately the same (if not higher) rate, without even a temporary respite. That was depressing.

[a.g.e. montagner]

Sorry for disappearing... again. I'm currently nearing the end of the Fourth Day.

Jakub wrote: "I'm extremely grateful to everyone who recommended this book. If it weren't for the monthly reading selection in this club, I might never have discovered it. And let me tell you, it's truly one of the best books I've ever read—I loved every single moment, even though it was brutal at times."

I'm also grateful for heeding the Book of the Month siren for the first time. I maybe wouldn't use superlatives, but it's certainly an excellent novel, and one I'm very happy to be reading.

An update of my impressions:

The plot twist at the end of the Second Day is amazing. The entire section seemed to march toward an easy victory for the river tribes, and Luubu's trap very suddenly reestablished that still so much had to happen before the end.
I found the Empress's narrative point of view in the Third Day awkward at times. It's full of "in my weakened state" remarks that eventually become pedantic. It feels like a missed opportunity, at least in part, especially considering that so much of the first half of the novel built up expectations about the Moon Goddess.
And I'm not sure I enjoyed the Fourth Day, whose function I guess is a respite before the final events. But the narrative suddenly stops, with Jun and Keema spending a sizable part of the section... being bashful and reading each other's minds? I felt the story wasn't progressing, not even emotionally.

Perhaps this is perverse, considering that many readers have been impressed by the violence of the other sections. I'm still not sure what to make of it, except for the fact that most of the bloodshed comes from the state and the royal family; this is of course its own message. From the first person interjections in italics we often get the sense that the kingdom is also a place of great beauty and simple joys... brutally interrupted by the lackeys of power.

Incidentally, several themes of the novel are also found in the Monstress series of comic books: an Asian fantasy setting, political plotting, extremely brutal states, cannibalism and/or dismemberment, gods who walk the Earth... and I'm probably forgetting some point. Anybody has a feedback on this?

[Jessica]

Bonnie wrote: "Are Granjo and Lola real words, or made up for the book?" Lola is grandmother in the Philippines.

[WTEK]

1. What did you think of the story structure?
I both loved and hated it. It was masterful and I always feel that second person forces you into a bit of empathy for the character. But the structure also kept me from being wholly absorbed into the fabulous story. The descriptions were beautiful and I was hooked from the get go with the description of his lola's hand rolled cigarette.

2. What did you think of the world?
It was very detailed, well thought out, and interesting. I liked the combo of non-western mythological themes juxtaposed against the immigrant experience of the second person bits.

3. Do you think this was myth? Metaphor? Delusion? Or history?
It felt like myth to me, told as a sort of history to the 2nd P character by his lola. The way the tale was told by the inverted theater was like a myth laced history play.

4. What worked or didn't for you?
Truly I really loved this story, it just kept breaking itself up by way to the structure in ways that made it too easy to put down. I was like "finally" when I finished it even though I loved to story and the richness of the telling.

I personally didn't mind the violence so much because it was a part of this world and the story was pushing about how Jun was making himself turn away from it even though it was such a huge part of his life. Even to the extent of absurdity when their quest was hindered by his unwillingness to do what needed to be done for them to finish it. I also liked that even the Third Terror wasn't truly evil. Each "bad" character had some redeeming quality (love for his sons, appreciation for art and beauty, a childlike need for acceptance.) And even the "good" Keema had that mysterious act in his past that caused his arm to be severed...and he lied.

So ultimately I liked it and even the worst part (the structure keeping me from fully submerging into the world) was done excellently.

[Kaia]

I finished this today, and, wow, that was definitely one of the most original stories I've read in a while, both the way it is written and, to some extent, the tale itself. I'm grateful to this group for introducing this book to me!

Rachel, you summed up my favorite part of the structure so well in your post: Rachel wrote: "But my favourite. My favourite. Was the italic intrusion of the minor characters into the narrative, particularly the voices of the characters who appear only to be killed. It's such a brilliant way of humanizing the narrative. Everyone matters. Everyone has agency and personhood even in the great sweep of history and mythic events. Every death ends a world.

Those minor characters' "asides" and some of the other structural elements also made it feel to me like I was really watching a play - kind of like there was a narrator telling the story with people acting out the events and every now and then interjecting an aside with their thoughts. Then you get the audience's perspective though the second person sections.

I agree with those who found the story to be a mix of all of things - myth, metaphor, delusion, history. It's not exactly a positive view of human nature - the average person doesn't really benefit from any of the changes in leadership, and there was no shortage of continuing wars and bloodshed, even in the "new country". It was much more brutal than I expected it to be, but that felt fitting to the world.

I was sad when the tortoise (and the tortoise mother) died and that the helpful bird turned out to be the Third Terror. I agree with WTEK, though, that I appreciated that the bad characters still had some redeeming qualities, and the good characters had their flaws.

I got a little bogged down in the "Fourth Day" - up until then, I had been reading the story very quickly - but the story picked back up again after that. I also found Jun and Keema's sparring tiresome after a while, though I liked their characters very much and was happy with how things ended for them. Overall, though, this was definitely a five-star read for me.