Mansfield Park-Background information and pre-read chat

[Frances, Moderator]

For those of you who will be joining this read, is this your first time reading Mansfield Park, your first time reading Jane Austen, or have you read some or all of her works before?

I've read all of Austen's work at least a couple of times, but every reread brings fresh perspectives and insights. It's also delightful to think of some of you reading this novel or Austen for the first time-what a pleasure awaits you!

Let's talk Jane Austen, our favourites of her novels (mine is Persuasion), and feel free to add any background information that may be of interest to other readers.

[Frances, Moderator]

Here is a link to some background information on Jane Austen, collected by various members in this group, in 2018.

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

[Frances, Moderator]

From Wikipedia,

Mansfield Park is the third published novel by Jane Austen, first published in 1814 by Thomas Egerton. A second edition was published in 1816 by John Murray, still within Austen's lifetime. The novel did not receive any public reviews until 1821.

The novel tells the story of Fanny Price, starting when her overburdened family sends her at the age of ten to live in the household of her wealthy aunt and uncle and following her development into early adulthood. From early on critical interpretation has been diverse, differing particularly over the character of the heroine, Austen's views about theatrical performance and the centrality or otherwise of ordination and religion, and on the question of slavery. Some of these problems have been highlighted in the several later adaptations of the story for stage and screen.

[Abigail]

Certainly people have divergent views about Fanny Price! She’s possibly the least modern of Austen’s heroines. The book also has a strong antiheroine who is more popular with many modern readers than the heroine.

I’ve read all of Austen’s works many times and as I age, this book has emerged as the one I admire the most. The structure has a complex symmetry that is almost like music to me. And considering that the setting, a grand house in deep in the countryside, is very remote, this book engages more seriously with contemporary politics and cultural issues than any of her other books do. I don’t want to give too much away at this point or color people’s thoughts about the book, but will get into those questions as we go along.

Jane Austen was the daughter of a clergyman, and in this book she takes on the clergy, religious vocation, and the duties of a clergyman more directly than in other books. Several of her clergymen are figures of fun, but here we have at least one who is extremely earnest.

I may read the Shapard annotated edition this time around, though my favorite is the Harvard/Belknap annotated edition.

[Frances, Moderator]

Abigail wrote: "Certainly people have divergent views about Fanny Price! She’s possibly the least modern of Austen’s heroines. The book also has a strong antiheroine who is more popular with many modern readers th..."

That's very true-I'm looking forward to my reread to see if my impression of Fanny Price changes as I am older (and wiser?) now.

[Abigail]

I think the key is to watch the difference between her emotions and thoughts on the one hand, and her actions on the other. 😉

[Emmeline]

I'm excited to read this with people who know so much about it! I've read Austen's other novels, some of them up to three times, but I have always avoided Mansfield Park because of prejudice against the heroine. I have seen three film/TV adaptations, each with their problems, so I'm interested to see how the book speaks for itself.

Abigail, I'm very intrigued by your last comment, and will be on the lookout. :-)

After recent rereads of everything except Emma (pending!), I would say my favourite is Pride and Prejudice. It has a narrative drive that is quite extraordinary considering the place the development of the novel was at when it was written. Most people I know say Persuasion is their favourite, but on my last read, I felt a little let down by it.

[Abigail]

I had the same experience with Persuasion, Emily! I used to adore it for all the emotion, but now it feels thin and unfinished and I am coming to loathe the hero.

Agree that the three film adaptations don’t do MP any favors. The most recent is insane and has nothing to do with the novel. The earliest one is just plain dreary. And the Patricia Rozema one, though the most interesting, is more like a dialogue with MP than an adaptation.

[Robin P, Moderator]

I read all of Jane Austen when I was about 20 and have reread all of them more than once - except Mansfield Park. It suffered originally in comparison with Emma, which I read just before it and which is my favorite. I told myself it was because MP isn't "funny". I finally reread it this past December and found there was another reason that it is different from the other books and in my mind inferior. I won't reread it now, but I will chime in and when appropriate explain why I find it weaker than her other books.

[Abigail]

Controversy ahead! 😁

[Ian]

Certain incidents in Mansfield Park are directly based on Jane Austen's experiences. One of them is Fanny having a brother in the Royal Navy: Jane herself had two.

For that part of the background, see Jane Austen's Sailor Brothers, which is available free from The Internet Archive (archive.org): use the PDF option for best results.

As of February, it is also available in a very inexpensive Kindle edition. Unfortunately, the illustrations are badly reproduced. (https://www.amazon.com/Jane-Austens-S...)

There are other, more expensive, Kindle editions, and paperback and hardcover versions.

It will probably be easier reading if you already know something of the history of the Royal Navy during the Napoleonic Wars, especially after Trafalgar, where most general histories effectively end the story.

For those not inclined to conventional historical writing, there is some well-regarded historical fiction on the Royal Navy during the Napoleonic Wars, including C.S. Forester's pioneering Hornblower novels, Patrick O'Brian's more recent Aubrey-Maturin series, and, from a naval historian, C. Northcote Parkinson's Richard Delancey stories. These are more fun to read, but will take considerably longer, what with all the characterization and plot.

(C. Northcote Parkinson may already be familiar for the little book Parkinson's Law, and Other Studies in Administration, on why, for example, work expands to fill the time available, and how it is that bureaucracies keep growing even when there is less work for them to do.)

More expensive (I think I bought the Kindle edition on sale), but containing wonderful illustrations and background information, some of it very relevant to Mansfield Park, is The Real Jane Austen: A Life in Small Things.

[Jane]

Ian wrote: "It will probably be easier reading if you already know something of the history of the Royal Navy during the Napoleonic Wars, especially after Trafalgar, where most general histories effectively end the story."

Thank you for the recommendations, Ian. Is it necessary to have some of this historical knowledge to enjoy Mansfield Park?

[Marlee]

Persuasion can be read 2 ways. If you read it complacently (over familiarity can do that as much as casual reading) it is simple, sometimes sweet but just okay.

If you read it carefully there is a thrum under the surface with layers of subtext. There are so many clues to emotion unspoken, disappointment and desire, blame and forgiveness.
Wentworth is flawed but Anne loves him in spite of those flaws and so I do too.

Emma is delightful.

Northanger Abbey is short, sweet and satirical. It is my favorite.

P&P is the best of them as far as checking all the boxes and for me is a close second to NA.

SS is the last on my list but I like it better each time I re-read it.

Lady Susan is wickedly funny.

MANSFIELD PARK

I think it a bit of a shame to criticise Fanny for not being modern. There are a great variety of women and I do not think Fanny any less worthy for being quieter. She is certainly, for all her supposed meekness, the bravest and most rebellious of Austen's heroines. She is also the clearest observer of human nature.

WARNING There are some hints below at future events for those who haven't read it. (view spoiler)[

She defies everyone's advice when her prospects are lowest, her value to most in her family (both adoptive and natural) the least and yet she chooses principle over security, and disdain over approval. (hide spoiler)]

It is a deeply contemplative book.

[Abigail]

Jane wrote: "Ian wrote: "It will probably be easier reading if you already know something of the history of the Royal Navy during the Napoleonic Wars, especially after Trafalgar, where most general histories ef..."

I don’t think it’s necessary to have historical background but knowing some of the history—about the Navy and about the slave trade particularly—enriches the experience. There are things a contemporary reader would have picked up on but a modern reader tends to skip over. Other areas of interest include laws relating to adultery and the craze for landscape “improvement.” MP delves more deeply into the lives and mores of the super-rich than do the other novels.

[Ian]

There are several passages in Mansfield Park which assume that the reader knows that there is a war on, which makes sea travel dangerous. Knowing that avoids some misunderstandings, and many readers, including distinguished critics, have stumbled over that lack of context.

Of course, some editors fill this in through introductions and notes, but some don’t.

A similar problem arises in understanding Pride and Prejudice, since part of the plot depends on the militia being marched to places on the coast which are exposed to a French invasion, like Brighton. Also the shortage of men in the gentry class: they were supplying the officers for the regular Army and Navy, and were not around to court young ladies.

Aspects of life in the Royal Navy, and the general demobilization at the supposed end of the Napoleonic Wars, are useful in understanding Persuasion as well, as I pointed out in a recent discussion of it.

Jane Austen didn’t think she needed to explain any of that to her first readers: it was Current Events, not History.

[Jane]

Abigail wrote: "I don’t think it’s necessary to have historical background but knowing some of the history—about the Navy and about the slave trade particularly—enriches the experience."

That's very helpful, thanks Abigail!

[Jane]

Ian wrote: "There are several passages in Mansfield Park which assume that the reader knows that there is a war on, which makes sea travel dangerous. Knowing that avoids some misunderstandings, and many readers, including distinguished critics, have stumbled over that."

That's good to know, Ian. I steer clear of introductions before reading a book because they are full of spoilers.

[Ian]

Abigail wrote: "Jane wrote: "Ian wrote: "It will probably be easier reading if you already know something of the history of the Royal Navy during the Napoleonic Wars, especially after Trafalgar, where most general..."

Also valuable is knowing how Church of England clergymen were assigned to parishes and other "livings," and why laymen could appoint people to churches, or even sell the position. I went into that in an earlier discussion of Mansfield Park, and may dig up the references when they are appropriate.

[Abigail]

Very true, Ian!

[Ian]

Jane wrote: "I steer clear of introductions before reading a book because they are full of spoilers...."

I used to do that, and read the introduction last, but I kept finding that I had tied myself in knots trying to understand things that were explained there. I prefer notes, myself, but they aren't always supplied, or very helpful when they are. Or refer back to the introduction.

There is a critical literature on "Jane Austen as a War Novelist," some of which made things a whole lot clearer. Like wartime inflation eating away at fixed incomes, so that it became impossible for the lower gentry to both save and maintain one's standing in society. Failure in either would damage a daughter's chances of making a "good" marriage, i.e., one that would support her in decent comfort, instead of mire her in poverty.

[Frances, Moderator]

Thank you everyone for this helpful background information, and also for being so careful about not sharing spoilers for those who are reading for the first time.

For those who don't know the Goodreads stuff, you can hide spoilers/use italics etc using the shortcuts shown on the top right of the comment box labelled (some html is OK). (I've tried to type out how to do it but it keeps getting hidden as a spoiler!)

[Frances, Moderator]

My JA most to least liked are as follows:

Persuasion
Pride and Prejudice
Sense and Sensibility tied with Northanger Abbey
Mansfield Park
Emma-always my least favourite, and this was confirmed on a relative recent reread.

Perhaps this will change with this MP reread!

Again, I'm really looking forward to discussing this novel with both some seasoned Austenites and some who are new to this novel!

[Robin P, Moderator]

My ranking

1. Emma, whom I adore, even though Austen said she knew readers wouldn't like her
2. Pride and Prejudice
3. Persuasion
4. Northanger Abbey
5. Sense and Sensibility (I actually thought the movie was better)
6. Mansfield Park

[Nancy]

I’m looking forward to reading Mansfield Park. The only other Jane Austen novel I have read is Emma.

[Trev]

Mansfield Park is my favourite JA novel and Fanny Price is one of my favourite heroines, so I will be supporting her and her actions throughout the read.

Although earlier in the century, Fanny has some of the qualities of the heroines of my favourite Victorian author, Elizabeth Gaskell. For example (example spoiler) (view spoiler)[ Molly Gibson, Mary Barton, and even Margaret Hale) (hide spoiler)]. I much prefer them to the Emma Woodhouses of this world.

There are are a number of autobiographical elements to this novel, (most likely set at around 1810 because of the naval references.)

I appreciated the themes that went beyond the usual societal intrigues and love matches. It was Mansfield Park, together with Persuasion that were the two Jane Austen novels that left me thinking the most.

For a an entertaining as well as educational overview of the period during which the novel is set, I would recommend Lucy Worsley’s documentaries. Quite a few are available on You Tube. Here is an example…….

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3Whq...

[Marlee]

Trev wrote: "Mansfield Park is my favourite JA novel and Fanny Price is one of my favourite heroines, so I will be supporting her and her actions throughout the read.

Although earlier in the century, Fanny ha..."

I will support you supporting her!

[Deborah, Moderator]

This will be a first read for me. I’ve read most of the others. I use an annotated edition which really helps me understand some of the more subtle parts

[Ian]

I have been looking for good, short, introductions to the Royal Navy during the the Wars of the French Revolution and Empire. And preferably an inexpensive one. Something that would make a convenient supplement to Jane Austen.

I have yet to find one that fits the whole description.

The major histories concern the strategic role of the Navy in strangling Napoleon's Empire. (In "The Influence of Sea Power upon the French Revolution and Empire, 1793-1812," in two fat volumes, the American naval historian Alfred Thayer Mahan argued that it was the blockading fleets which really destroyed the Grand Army). These are not novice-friendly.

As an alternative that came to mind is The Sea Warriors by Richard Woodman. It is currently available in Kindle ($2.99). The subtitle is "Fighting Captains and Frigate Warfare in the Age of Nelson," https://www.amazon.com/Sea-Warriors-F...

The downside is that it is 471 pages: but many chapters can be read on their own, to get an impression of what naval warfare was like in the age of "wooden ships and iron men."

It covers what usually gets brief mentions in the main histories, concerned as they are with fleet actions of ships-of-the-line carrying anything from 74 to 120 guns. The frigates, nominally mounting 26 to 44 guns, which served as scouts, messengers, convoy escorts, and commerce raiders, were more likely to see action. Unfortunately, the book doesn't cover much after Trafalgar (1805), when major fleet actions pretty much came to an end.

For some frigate actions, some of strategic importance, in the following years, see Remember Nelson: The Life of Captain Sir William Hoste, or just "of Sir William Hoste"). Under the latter title it is available in Kindle Unlimited, or for $3.99 (https://www.amazon.com/Remember-Nelso...) It is one of the seven volumes of "Tom Pocock's History of Nelson." Another post-Trafalgar volume in the series is Stopping Napoleon : War and intrigue in the Mediterranean.

The clashes of American and British frigates is practically a side issue to the larger international conflict, but a very interesting one. It is covered in many places, including a book by Theodore Roosevelt (long before he thought of becoming President of the United States), but for an introduction I would suggest C.S. Forester's non-fiction The Age of Fighting Sail: The Story of the Naval War of 1812, also in Kindle (I reviewed it at https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-re...)

[Ian]

I seem to have left out one useful book I meant to mention, probably because it is not available in Kindle, and I struck it off my working list.

This is Life in Nelson's Navy by Dudley Pope (there are other books with the same title). It is only about 250 pages long, but covers topics which will be helpful for understanding Mansfield Park. There is a paperback edition: https://www.amazon.com/Life-Nelsons-N...

Dudley Pope is the author of another fictional series on the Royal Navy, featuring Nicholas Ramage (Lord Ramage) during the wars of the French Revolution and Empire, which I also might of have mentioned. His non-fiction The Black Ship covers a notorious mutiny, and is well worth reading. He later fictionalized parts of it for the Ramage saga.

Finally, for those really interested, there is a cheap Kindle editon of the works of Alfred Thayer Mahan, which appears to be comprehensive, leaving aside, I think, uncollected essays, but has some OCR problems, mostly with punctuation: The Complete Works of Alfred Thayer Mahan. See https://www.amazon.com/Complete-Works...

[Trev]

Although not a substitute for a good book on a subject, the ‘History Extra’ series (an offshoot of The BBC History Magazine) provides interesting factual explanations as well as exploring evidence originating from the remaining artefacts of the period.

https://www.historyextra.com/search/a...

One example from this series focuses on HMS Victory and the Georgian Navy which is well worth reading.

https://www.historyextra.com/period/g...

The History Extra series relating to the Georgian period also includes podcasts, most of which are free to listen to.

One article in the series focuses on the accuracy of Jane Austen’s novels in depicting life in Georgian England. However the article does contain a few spoilers for those who have not read Mansfield Park and/or Jane Austen’s other works.

https://www.historyextra.com/period/g...

[Ana]

I have never seen the Mansfield Park movies nor have I read the book. I’m looking forward to reading it with the group :)

I read Pride and Prejudice once many years ago.
I have also read parts of Emma and Sense and Sensibility.
I think I like them all equally. The themes and the characters are very similar.
I have also seen all the various movie adaptations.
(Sense & Sensibility with Alan Rickman is my favorite)

[Melanie]

I’ve read Mansfield Park many times over, although my favorite of her works are Persuasion and Emma. I have seen as many of the different versions of movies based off her books that I can as well. Even if Mansfield Park isn’t my absolute favorite, I’m excited to revisit it with the group!

[Emmeline]

I have a question, since there are so many well-read Austenites here. Sometimes I teach courses at a local literature school, and I'm going to propose one of "a century of women." I want to start with an Austen, then do George Eliot (probably The Mill on the Floss), Hardy (Tess) and Lawrence (The Rainbow). We'll read extracts from other works too.

I can't decide which Austen! Especially as I haven't yet read MP. I'm thinking perhaps that, or perhaps Sense and Sensibility. Any thoughts?

[Ian]

Mansfield Park is not a good place to start, much as I enjoy it.

Of all the Austen novels, Pride and Prejudice may be the best for your purposes. It has a fairly simple opening situation, which progresses logically, and it has some immediately attractive characters with most of whom the reader can safely sympathize. Plus comic relief.

Little of which applies to Mansfield Park unless the reader is very alert: and some of plot hinges on institutions and practices that are alien to modern American readers.

P & P survives simple understandings, and can be read by the novice more as a “Regency Romance,” while allowing much more sophisticated readings.

On top of which it has unusually good motion picture and television adaptations, which some students may have encountered.

(However, I think that the 1940 version with Greer Garson and Laurence Olivier, although a great success as a motion picture, is a surprisingly poor rendition, in which some of Austen’s plot was deliberate suppressed in favor of typecasting, the period was changed because the wardrobe department didn’t like the correct fashions, etc.)

[Emmeline]

Ian wrote: "Mansfield Park is not a good place to start, much as I enjoy it.

Of all the Austen novels, Pride and Prejudice may be the best for your purposes. It has a fairly simple opening situation, which pr..."

True! I suppose my concern was P&P is almost too well known. I expect the students to be reasonably well read, but perhaps not in this era. But it would certainly make an engaging opening.

(I agree, the 1940 film version is not good; nearly turned me off Laurence Olivier for life).

[Ian]

If enough of your students know the basic plot of P & P, it might be a chance to introduce them to more sophisticated readings. But I don't know anything about your students, or how much time you have to spend on each book.

There have been several Goodreads discussions of it, naturally. One from 2017 can found at https://www.goodreads.com/topic/group...

Another, from 2021 can be found at https://www.goodreads.com/topic/group...

Both may contain what you will find to be helpful hints and references. (And duplicate information: I participated in both, and repeated myself.)

[Marlee]

Emily wrote: "Ian wrote: "Mansfield Park is not a good place to start, much as I enjoy it.

Of all the Austen novels, Pride and Prejudice may be the best for your purposes. It has a fairly simple opening situati..."

A very easy one, with a great variety of characters to examine, is Northanger Abbey. It also discusses another female author Anne Radcliffe.

Or if you think the epistolary form would add to the variety of your selections, Lady Susan is a good choice. It is also short and it has a really wicked character who is so much fun to read about.

[Marlee]

The naval history is all very interesting and will add to our understanding of the time. I think it might also be worthwhile to look into the play Lover's Vows. Which is discussed a great deal in MP. Some might want to give it a read. Being a play it will only take a few hours to read. If that is too much finding at least a plot summary will be very helpful. Warning: it takes almost as long to read the Wikipedia page as it does to read the play ;)

[Robin P, Moderator]

Emily wrote: "I have a question, since there are so many well-read Austenites here. Sometimes I teach courses at a local literature school, and I'm going to propose one of "a century of women." I want to start w..."

I would not recommend MP or Sense and Sensibility as introductions to Austen. S & S is hard reading. I went back to it after the movie and found it a struggle to get into (and I am a literature major who has read a ton of classics.) I recommend Emma, of course, since it's my favorite, and the students may know one of the movies or the excellent "Clueless". Northanger Abbey could be good. It's not that long and I think with a little explanation, students could relate to how the heroine has been influenced by Gothic novels (not that different from some things they read themselves these days, or movies they have seen.) Persuasion is good but probably more appreciated by a somewhat older reader.

[Marlee]

I agree you need life experience to really appreciate Persuasion.

SS can be difficult to get into and there are a lot of subplots to complicate it.

I like Emma but it is a longer book. It might be good if you want the class to debate because Emma is polarising. On a first read you either love her or hate her. She grows on people who give her another chance. You also really need a sharp eye for irony to understand all the humour. You need that in all of Austen but esp. Emma because without it you will not understand that you are being invited to laugh with the author at the heroine as well as minor characters.

[Robin P, Moderator]

Northanger Abbey is pretty short and pretty straightforward so it might be a good introduction.

It is in that book that Austen has a character say, "only a novel!" and go on to defend novels.

[Emmeline]

Yes maybe Northanger Abbey is best. I had thought S&S for its ironic binaries of female character but it’s true I didn’t enjoy the reread much myself. Students will all be adults so life experience isn’t a problem, but Northanger Abbey is a good conversation starter! I’ve never read Lady Susan…I had understood it was unfinished?

[Marlee]

Emily wrote: "Yes maybe Northanger Abbey is best. I had thought S&S for its ironic binaries of female character but it’s true I didn’t enjoy the reread much myself. Students will all be adults so life experience..."

The story is complete. It was never tranformed from the letters to the narrative style her other novels were published in. I like it very much. It is a very short read you should give it a few hours one rainy afternoon.

[Emmeline]

Marlee wrote: "Emily wrote: "Yes maybe Northanger Abbey is best. I had thought S&S for its ironic binaries of female character but it’s true I didn’t enjoy the reread much myself. Students will all be adults so l..."

Interesting! I think I was thinking of Sanditon, of which my parents had a copy "by Jane Austen and another lady." I will check out Lady Susan.

And thanks all... I will certainly poke through past group chats whichever book we choose!

[Francis]

Francis will join your group read about Frances if I may.
My interest is primarily motivated by the keen comments in this thread.
Looking forward to reading with you.

[Natalie]

Hello everyone I am looking forward to reading MP for the third time. I studied it as a set text for A level and got put off it by my teacher who was always criticising Fanny for being ‘wet’ though she clearly loved JA. I quite recently reread it - think must have been in 2020 lockdown and was able to appreciate its nuances much more. I have to say I absolutely adore Persuasion (also the BBC adaption with Amanda Root) and Pride and Prejudice. I have read all of JA novels and watched so many adaptations (completely obsessed with the P&P film directed by Joe Wright. I have also recently got into Sanditon… what do people think about that? It’s quite entertaining thought frustrating I can’t watch season 3 yet. On the strength of recommendations here I have ordered a new edition of MP (the Norton one) and Paula Byrne’s book.

[Marlee]

Our society has become so absurdly brainwashed into believing that only bright, vibrant, and vocal characters -in life as well as in fiction- are strong. The value of the quiet, meek character is constantly deprecated. A gentle soul is labelled 'wet' or 'door mat.' We are so heavily drenched in that judgement that we are willing to ignore Fanny's inner strength even though it figures very prominently in the plot. **sigh** Fanny is a truly honourable character and her apparent meekness only adds to her value. When did we as a culture stop honouring those who love to help the people they love? For all their faults -and they are many- the Bertrams significantly improved Fanny's quality of life and deserve some gratitude. And if her abundant goodness repays them with more than their due, why do we sit in judgement of that?

[Jan]

My ranking

Pride and Prejudice
Persuasion
Emma
Northanger Abbey
Sense and Sensibility
Mansfield Park

Mansfield has both my least favorite heroine and hero.

[Jan]

Marlee wrote: "Our society has become so absurdly brainwashed into believing that only bright, vibrant, and vocal characters -in life as well as in fiction- are strong. The value of the quiet, meek character is c..."

Elinor and Anne are intorverts and strong.

[Olga]

Hello everyone!
I’ve been lurking here for some weeks now, but only today finally (after finishing a rather difficult book in another GR book club) got down to read this thread carefully.
I almost read MP a few years back. I say almost, because it was dramatised adaptation and I was too far in (it doesn’t take much to hook me) when I realised that the story was somewhat cut. Since then I kept the unabridged version on my TBR and was very glad to find this group preparing to read MP in June.
I haven’t read anything else by Austen, but I started reading P&P a few times, all to no avail. Somehow my ADHD brain went ‘oh, look at that other cool book’ and forgot to get back to P&P.
Looking forward to catching up to week 2 and read your discussions about the book.