Goodreads and LGBT Authors Question

[Miriam]

The author would need to contact staff to get any form of exception put in place. Even then it might not stop imported data from containing previously published names.

[Elizabeth (Alaska)]

I don't know why some authors should be treated differently than others. When an author changes their published name - regardless of reason - the books continue to be listed under that name first published. The new name can be added in the secondary position. Books originally published under the different name would have that name listed in primary position.

This policy is so that *readers* can find the book.

[Elizabeth (Alaska)]

Dale Stuckey wrote: "This would be problematic but a fair argument I guess, if it applied consistently. Why does Juno Dawson get an exception to the rule, but Sophie Campbell and Rebecca Maye Holiday don't? GR deadnames some authors but not others. "

And they have disallowed a woman from using her married name. No book should have a different name in primary position other than that first published. (Though I note for 19th Century authors long dead there are exceptions as in the Brontës.)

There is no reason to think the policy is problematic. Discrimination in any form is wrong and to allow some changes and not others is discrimination. And to allow changes for anyone requesting for any reason or no reason would mean chaos.

[Elizabeth (Alaska)]

What I'm saying is that LGBT shouldn't determine anything. It doesn't matter what reason people want to use a different name. No one should be able to do this (as an author for books already published, in real life is a whole different thing). No one.

But I agree that staff making different decisions not based on policy is wrong (and there *is* a policy). The names that were changed should be changed back.

[Elizabeth (Alaska)]

Dale Stuckey wrote: " Sophie gets deadnamed,"

The books were changed against policy, not by staff, but by a volunteer librarian. I have reported it.

[Scott]

Agreed with Elizabeth that the original names should remain for everyone. The database relies on facts, not preferences.

Dale Stuckey wrote: "they don't want anybody using their old names."

Well that's just too bad isn't it? These attempts to control and regulate everyone else's speech is a big part of why they get the hostility they do.

[Elizabeth (Alaska)]

Dale Stuckey wrote: ""if you're LGBT, contact GR staff""

I have never seen this. Never.

[Elizabeth (Alaska)]

Dale Stuckey wrote: "If you look up "Goodreads Deadnaming" on Google."

For me, there is absolutely no reason to google stuff about Goodreads. I am an active librarian here and am well-versed on policy.

[Elizabeth (Alaska)]

I am not aware of any exceptions. I would be pretty upset to find out that there are some and Goodreads chooses to discriminate against some authors who aren’t claiming to be LGBT and just want to have a different pseudonym.

[lethe]

Dale Stuckey wrote: "Rebecca Maye Holiday apparently had a librarian dig up and post false information that she removed from her own profile after her representative posted it there, and the librarian accused her of being a married woman trying to strip her old name from book records (turns out Holiday was never married and changed her name cuz she's openly ace and will never get married or have kids by her own choice, and it was a public government affair, so... oy vey, that librarian's got a lot of explaining to do). "

Well, that librarian was me, so let me explain. You got the wrong end of the stick there.

Rebecca claimed that a fake author with the same first name as her had plagiarized a few of her books and she got a librarian to remove that other name from said books (since the word "plagiarized" was used, the librarian should have handed the matter over to Support, but oh, well).

Turned out the "fake" author was actually Rebecca herself under her old name, which was proved not only by what was written in her old author bio (librarians have access to the changelog) but also on an official document that someone dug up.

At no point did I "accuse" her of being a married woman. I merely quoted her old author bio to her and asked if she denied being the same person, to which she never replied.

You can read what is left of the thread in question here (Rebecca deleted her first comments)*: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

By the way, I fail to see what being ace has to do with gender and deadnaming. She kept her first name, so this is not the same issue as with trans* authors wanting to get rid of their gendered deadname.

FWIW, I have pleaded several times to change this policy of using the first published name on all editions, not just for trans* authors, but also for married/divorced persons, people having rashly used their real name or a silly pseudonym at first, etc.

The answer was invariably that it would be too much work to change, which is just a lazy argument in my opinion.

They did say that trans* authors could write to staff to have their deadname removed and that it would be decided on a case-by-case basis, which also made me gnash my teeth. The fewer exceptions a policy has, the better and the less confusion. But hey, why go for simple solutions?

*ETA: Oh, I forgot! It was you who started that thread, but you deleted your OP.

[Elizabeth (Alaska)]

lethe wrote: "They did say that trans* authors could write to staff to have their deadname removed and that it would be decided on a case-by-case basis, which also made me gnash my teeth. "

I'm sorry to hear this. No company should be in the business of discriminating against people, and such a practice is clear discrimination.

When I mentioned above about a woman marrying, the case you mention was not of it. The case (and I'm not going to go search for it) was a author who *had* married and wanted to have her married name shown as first her books. She was prevented from doing so, based on policy.

[lethe]

Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "I'm sorry to hear this. No company should be in the business of discriminating against people, and such a practice is clear discrimination."

Agreed. There are enough authors who would love nothing better than for their old name to disappear, not just trans* people.

[Miriam]

King is not the only author we've used pseudonym for (it's rare, but does happen with others). It's no different than when we add translator or narrator designations. Also, the first published name is still the first listed name on the books, per policy.

Most ones that get a pseudonym designation are going to be popular authors since it describes why the same book is published under two different names.

Not sure what that has to do with the topic at all.

[lethe]

Dale Stuckey wrote: "I deleted my OP because I didn't expect you to do what you did to that author. It was sorta cruel, actually."

No, I don't accept this. That was entirely on you. You made the author appear a liar when you said that Rebecca McNutt was plagiarizing some of Rebecca Maye Holiday's books, and when you deleted your OP instead of explaining that you had misunderstood, that made it look even more suspicious. I can't stand authors who lie.

Do you know how many there are who lie about their old books in order to get a librarian to do their bidding? A lot more than you might think. And Rebecca herself didn't make it any less suspicious by acting so coy about the names: that Goodreads had no proof that the majority of these books belonged to anybody other than herself (we never claimed they did, quite the contrary), and that all of it was tied to legal issues that she was not currently at liberty to disclose.

Also, she had been told before by a staff member in this group that the first published name should be primary on all editions.

I have never heard "deadnaming" being used in any other situation than when a trans* person gets a new first name and other people still use their old first name. I have certainly never heard it apply to last names, but I might be behind the times.

Anyway, I already wrote about my stance on the policy. In my opinion, all authors who change their name should have that new name as primary on all editions, instead of making exceptions for classic authors (Acton, Currer and Ellis Bell, anyone?) and some trans* authors who happen to be Goodreads Authors and have contacted staff about it.

[lethe]

Dale Stuckey wrote: "Why did she owe you any explanation since she didn't start the thread and wasn't even the one asking anything about the books?"

She didn't start that thread, but she did start at least two others:
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/... ; she deleted her comments, but from the answers I deduce that se tried to get rid of the old name (Dec. 2021);
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/... ; in which the term "plagiarized" is used again (Jan. 2023).

I had a look at the book mentioned and the only other name I saw in the changelog was her old name. So excuse me for thinking that she was just another author looking for a way to erase her old name against policy.

I truly don't believe all authors are crooks, but I have seen this sort of behaviour too often to take the author's word for gospel on issues like this.

Anyway, I don't think we are going to agree on this. But I believe we agree that GR should change the policy to make the latest author name the primary on all editions, or at the very least be consistent and not make exceptions for those GR Authors who actually complain about it. That is discriminatory and also confusing for the librarians (and even staff) who are expected to follow policy.

[Elizabeth (Alaska)]

lethe wrote: "But I believe we agree that GR should change the policy to make the latest author name the primary on all editions, or at the very least be consistent"

This would be a change that could be followed. First or last, everyone is the same.

[lethe]

Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "This would be a change that could be followed."

Yes, except that staff have said in the past that it would be too much work :(

[Elizabeth (Alaska)]

lethe wrote: "Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "This would be a change that could be followed."

Yes, except that staff have said in the past that it would be too much work :("

It would be done as we find the problems. Just as is everything else, including how much work many are doing to add new books.

EDIT: and how much work the imports are creating, leaving hundreds upon thousands of uncombined classic works. (Yes, this is off-topic, just referencing the "too much work" excuse.)

[Elizabeth (Alaska)]

This Book Is Gay by Juno Dawson

[Scott]

Dale Stuckey wrote: "You guys should keep in mind most authors don't know about how GR works and are newbies when it comes to things like names on book records."

Well that's part of the problem, authors don't bother to find out how GR works. They just come in and immediately want us to make changes for them. Still, you wouldn't expect to go to a library and find books filed under a name that isn't on the books, so why would one expect it here?

Dale Stuckey wrote: "authors like Jack Vance or Mel Odom, who write under multiple different names and have no consistent book records without a lot of merging of editions and titles. But then you get authors like Daniel Handler, who doesn't want his Lemony Snicket books merged onto his profile."

You are confusing no-longer-used real names with pseudonyms. They are not the same.

[lethe]

Dale Stuckey wrote: "Now, if GR is getting rid of the deadname profile, they better do the same for Sophie Campbell and Rebecca Maye Holiday, followed by a lot of other authors"

The point is, Juno Dawson is a Goodreads Author and Sophie Campbell isn't. Juno must have written in to staff at some point to have her deadname removed. I don't know in how far Sophie Campbell is aware of Goodreads, but since she has not claimed her profile, she doesn't have that same option.

I still maintain Rebecca May Holiday's is a different situation. What I've read about it, deadnaming only pertains to first names, for people who have changed (or identify as another) gender. (Although I would be interested to know how it is solved in countries/languages where last names are gendered, f.e. in Eastern Europe.)

[lethe]

Dale Stuckey wrote: "Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "This Book Is Gay by Juno Dawson"

Ah, looks like it's been fixed (or... reverted...?). I can't tell. Also, why does Juno have 2 "Juno Daws..."

Looks like for some reason when she claimed her profile she was moved to the 2-space spot. Maybe the default profile was for her deadname previously? If her deadname has been removed from GR entirely (i.e., also for the editions published under that name), the profiles should be merged and her claimed profile moved to the default spot. This would have to be done by staff, since the unclaimed profile has many followers.

[Scott]

Dale Stuckey wrote: "I'm on the fence about Sophie Campbell. Do authors really have to create a GR account in order to assert their proper name?"

If the author is not here, why does it matter?

For the record, the physical books on my physical shelf are by Ross Campbell.

[Elizabeth (Alaska)]

Scott wrote: "For the record, the physical books on my physical shelf are by Ross Campbell.
"

And this is why the policy needs to somehow keep the original name. I think to be consistent, the current/original policy should be in place for all authors, but I can see lethe's point that most recent author should be first. But in no way should a published name be removed from a published edition.

[lethe]

Dale Stuckey wrote: "This sounds discriminatory to me, both because Holiday has already made it clear she considers her old name a deadname, and because she's a GR author. Making special exceptions for trans authors but not ace and nonbinary authors just seems slimy to me... but again, private company, can do what it wants."

I refer you to my comment #18 in this thread:

They did say that trans* authors could write to staff to have their deadname removed and that it would be decided on a case-by-case basis, which also made me gnash my teeth. The fewer exceptions a policy has, the better and the less confusion.

Also, Holiday never said in this group that she considered her old name as a deadname. As I already mentioned, she never came out and said what the problem was.

And can you enlighten me why ace should be considered similar to trans* and nonbinary? As I see it, it's a sexual orientation just like gay, lesbian, bi and straight. Nothing to do with gender identification.

[Elizabeth (Alaska)]

Dale Stuckey wrote: "but this is just too hard to follow and totally inconsistent."

This is what I said above. Or words to that effect. It's chaos if there isn't a policy that applies to everyone consistently.

EDIT: And keep in mind that it is volunteers who are doing the work of applying these policies.

[Scott]

Dale Stuckey wrote: GR doesn't define what it considers "deadnaming".

Probably because it's not a real word.

[Elizabeth (Alaska)]

Dale Stuckey wrote: "GR doesn't define what it considers "deadnaming"."

Because it has nothing to do with anything that GR does. GR is about books and authors. Whatever the name on the book is what we apply. Policy doesn't address *why* there might be different names. And shouldn't. If you start to use "why" you start the road down to discrimination.

[lethe]

Scott wrote: "Dale Stuckey wrote: GR doesn't define what it considers "deadnaming".

Probably because it's not a real word."

According to Wiktionary, it has been attested since at least 2010 as a noun and 2013 as a verb by the OED. (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/deadname )

[Scott]

lethe wrote: "According to Wiktionary, it has been attested since at least 2010 as a noun and 2013 as a verb by the OED. (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/deadname )"

Anyone can write a Wiki and even established dictionaries aren't reliable any more.

It's a hideous made-up word specifically used to elicit an emotional reaction. "Birth name" or "given name" would be the correct term to use.

[Jaclyn, Librarian Program Manager]

Closing this thread as it's veered from its original purpose. Goodreads encourages transgender persons requesting a name change reach out to Support for assistance.