2023 Int Booker shortlist - Whale

[Hugh, Active moderator]

Whale by Cheon Myeong-Kwan, translated by Chi-Young Kim

[Alwynne]

I'm quite torn about this one, I loved the way that Cheon weaves a particular version of Korea's history post WW2 into a variation on a family saga and there were numerous elements that were either bitingly funny or extremely moving. But I'm not that keen on magical realism, so aspects of this didn't really work for me as a reader. Cheon's novel's frequently been referenced in relation to Marquez, and also displays the influence of writers like John Irving an author I've never warmed to.

[Tracy]

This is coming out mid April in the US from Archipelago, so I’m hoping to receive it soon with my subscription.

[Yahaira]

this one is available on netgalley US as well

[Paul]

This one is a re translation but eligible as the original translation only came out in the US not the UK (part of the very odd Dalkey series of Korean literature which was seriously under promoted).

I actually prefer the first translation when i compare a passage - will copy in a sample of each when I get a chance.

[Paul]

Previous translation by Jae Won Chung (2016):


She can't breathe. Her eyes sting. Flames. Acrid smoke sears her nostrils. Spine-chilling screams. Black clouds blind her. Columns, the ceiling collapsing. Sparks flying, flames attacking her. A moment later, she opens her eyes. Her body is cool. The shadow cast against the wall by the grating is like a solid net. Someone sobs softly in the dark. She can hear the prison guard's boots echoing in the distance. She can hear someone shouting at the person crying. She curls up. The sobbing dies down. She closes her eyes. The footsteps recede. Tomb-like silence falls. Soon Chunhee is fast asleep again.

The conflagration was indeed horrific. Over eight hundred people perished in the fire, and even more in the market where it eventually spread. The damage was massive. It was no exaggeration to say that half of Pyungdae burned to the ground. It was the greatest tragedy since the war.

A few days after the fire, government investigators arrived. They were reminded of the horrendous scenes in the war's immediate aftermath, when entire cities vanished in flames. Pyungdae, once flourishing, was now a city of death. Smoke still rose from ruined heaps of former buildings, and though it had not completely collapsed, the ashen exterior of the theater showed just how horrifyingly intense the fire had been. Pungent smoke blanketed the town and the air quivered with the smell of burnt flesh and rotting corpses. Wails emanated from every house and scorched, unburied bodies were strewn in the streets, each attracting swarms of flies. The investigators covered their eyes and ears, confronted with the most hideous scene they had ever witnessed.

New translation by Chi-Young Kim:


She can’t breathe. Her eyes sting. Flames are surging. Toxic smoke fills her nose. She hears horrible screams. Black smoke covers her field of sight. Pillars collapse. Sparks fly. She can’t see. A pillar of fire scorches the sky. The ceiling collapses. Flames overcome her. She opens her eyes. She’s cold. The shadows of iron bars are drawn along the wall, like a net. Someone is crying quietly in the darkness. A guard’s footsteps ring from far away. Someone is threatening the crying person. She curls up. The crying dies down. She closes her eyes. The footsteps go away. A tomb-like quiet comes. A moment later, Chunhui falls back asleep.

What was left behind after the fire raged was truly gruesome. Eight hundred people died in the theater. The market next door caught fire, and the losses were astronomical. It wouldn’t be an exaggeration to say half of Pyeongdae burned down. It was the worst catastrophe since the war.

A few days after the fire, a government investigation team arrived. So much of the city had burned down. Once booming, Pyeongdae was now a city of death. The smoldering ruins of the buildings and the blackened shell of the theater were proof of how terrible the fire was that day. Thick smoke covered the town, the smell of decomposing bodies hanging heavily in the streets. Wails came from every house and there were burned corpses everywhere, drawing masses of flies. The investigators had to cover their eyes and plug their ears at this terrible scene.

[Paul]

Alwynne wrote: "I'm not that keen on magical realism, so aspects of this didn't really work for me as a reader.."

By its very nature, a story contains adjustments and embellishments depending on the perspective of the person telling it, depending on the listener’s convenience, depending on the storyteller’s skills. Reader, you will believe what you want to believe.

... as the narrator helpfully tells us - at the point when the supernaturally large baby who grows in to a monstrously strong woman, and who is unable to speak or even understand language, suddenly communicates telepathically with an elephant!

[Alwynne]

Paul wrote: "Alwynne wrote: "I'm not that keen on magical realism, so aspects of this didn't really work for me as a reader.."

By its very nature, a story contains adjustments and embellishments depending on t..."

I couldn't relate to that at all, also found the various generously endowed men quite annoying, and the instances of slightly grubby, near-Rabelaisian comedy. Although the emphasis on bodies that deviated from conventional norms was interesting. And I liked the way he approached his retelling of Korean history.

[Paul]

Rabelsian is a good way to put it and yes history is woven in well.

It's very stylised, in a way I can see might be annoying. E.g. a character introduced as the man with the scar—the renowned con artist, notorious smuggler, superb butcher, rake, pimp of all the prostitutes on the wharf, and hot-tempered broker, is then repeatedly referred to as that in the book each time he appears (Milkman taken to another level).

I rather liked the "That was the law of ..." refrain that is used throughout the book, followed by various laws. I took a list (suspect I missed some) which gives a good flavour of the book:

Nature
The world
Reflexes
Rumours
Inertia
Servants
Genetics
Love
Their world
Gravity
The world she has entered
Reproduction
Employment
Pleasure quarters
Acceleration
Stupidity
Paranoid delusion
The streets
Geumbok
The Man with the Scar
Westerns
Courtship
Obesity
Fate
The subconscious
Habit
Action and reaction
Ideology
Harpoons
Beggars
Show business
Exaggeration
Government agencies
Being overly confident
Wild rumours
Slogans
Recklessness
Capitalism
Tithing
Management
Alcohol
Plot, which catered to crass commercialism
Prison cells
Beliefs
Discussion
Ennui
Intellectuals
Dictatorship
Ratings and mass appeal

[Alwynne]

Paul wrote: "Rabelsian is a good way to put it and yes history is woven in well.

It's very stylised, in a way I can see might be annoying. E.g. a character introduced as the man with the scar—the renowned con ..."

Good point, I liked that as well.

[WndyJW]

The two translations didn’t differ greatly in cadence or sentence structure, they just differed in word choice. From what I read about this book it doesn’t appeal to me, especially after David Hebblethwaite saying he didn’t know what he was reading, but he knew he was enjoying it. And there’s torture.

[David]

This isn't directly related to Whale, but here's an interesting glimpse into the debate around sexism in Korea: https://www.npr.org/2023/03/14/116340...

[Paul]

NB on the previous translation, we're now thinking it wasn't actually published. The Dalkey Archive series petered out.

[Paul]

Chad Post who has inherited the Dalkey Archive archive confirms the previous version didn't seem to have been published although it was planned and he isn't sure why it didn't come out.

[Yahaira]

I'm only 50 pages in (the dockworker chapter) so this may be explained, but can someone tell me how multiple rapes and a giant penis relates to post war Korea and American intervention? How is this satire or what is it satirizing?

[David]

Yahaira wrote: ". . . can someone tell me how multiple rapes and a giant penis relates to post war Korea and American intervention? How is this satire or what is it satirizing?"

I would be interested to hear an explanation for this as well.

[Paul]

This isn’t The Gospel According to The New World type of book I think where everything is supposed to symbolise or satirise something. It’s what in Europe I would call a Rabelaisian tale, and I suspect draws on Korean folk tale equivalents.

And it did remind me of the infamous Haesindang Park (itself also inspired by a folk legend).

The political side comes in more by the background of the aftermath of the Korean War, the anti-communist hysteria, the military dictatorship and then the Miracle on the Han and the rampant capitalism which rebuilt the economy. But, the General aside, that’s more the background than satire.

[Yahaira]

I don't think I'm far enough into it to have seen the political side of things yet.

But I have seen two rapes, one almost rape, and some Murakami level descriptions. Just wondered if there was a purpose to any of it. I can see someone freaking everyone out with the size of their penis as funny or bawdy, but what about the rest?

The fable-like writing does carry you along, so I can appreciate what it's doing in that aspect.

[Robert]

I see it as bawdy, not unlike Candide or Terry Southern’s Candy. I’m guessing that it’s a representation of class struggle and that the lower ones tend to be violated.

However throughout the book, whenever someone does something bad they pay for it

[Yahaira]

candy was 18 though right?

does 'bawdy' count when it's children, especially one with a disability?

[Paul]

Well it's rather like next year's alleged International Booker chair of judges who would argue this is part of society - the book isn't endorsing it.

Incidentally I asked the world's most pathological liar* about what influences the author may have drawn on and it came up with a genre of erotic Korean folk tales, complete with various website links. Which were completely made up.

* no not the Donald - it was ChatGPT. Have others found that - it simply invests answers to questions it doesn't know but then backs it up with plausible sounding references, website links etc.

[David]

The links were made up or the content was made up?

[Paul]

All of it. It just makes things up.

Did the same to me recently with the Kurkov book on this list. He thanks three real-life people at the end of the book. GY googled and successfully identified them - two Ukranian writers and a relatively low-profile actress.

I asked ChatGPT. Got first two right - and it 1 second rather than needing to google. But - and this is how I think it works - it couldn't find the third so deduced/extrapolated she was likely a poet.

Then it made up a bio for her, a list of poems (with Ukranian titles) and a link to her Ukranian wikipedia page.

Except none of it was real. This was an invented poet from a combination of other poets. The Wiki page looked good until I translated it - and found the page was Wikipedia's page of 'this page doesn't exist'.

Then I asked if it could give me some English language websites. about the poet (at this point still wasn't sure if she was real). And this was the bit that most impressed and scared me.

[Paul]

Here are a few examples of articles and interviews about Oksana Prokhorets that are available in English:

Oksana Prokhorets: the poetic power of silence" - an article by Richard McKane in the online journal "Modern Poetry in Translation": https://modernpoetryintranslation.com...

Translating Oksana Prokhorets: The Scythian Madonna" - an article by Alex Cigale in the online journal "Words without Borders":

https://www.wordswithoutborders.org/a... "

Untranslatable Secrets: The Poetry of Oksana Prokhorets" - an interview with the author by Melissa Beck in the literary magazine "Asymptote":

https://www.asymptotejournal.com/inte...

[Paul]

Example of one of those links in text:

wordswithoutborders .org/article/translating-oksana-prokhorets-the-scythian-madonna

Now if there were such a poet then where would you look for web pages. My own top 3 guesses would be Modern Poetry in Translation, Words Without Borders and Asymptote.

So what ChatGPT has done is deduce that, then invent some plausible sounding articles, and then create a fake link which is also very plausible.

And note I didn't say "please make up some plausible sites", I asked "Are you really sure this person exists - could you point me to some English language websites"

It's impressive and scary that's it skill is to lie very convincingly.

[Paul]

Basically the human race ended a month or so ago, just we haven't noticed yet.

[Yahaira]

this is wild

[Gumble's Yard - Golden Reviewer]

I think the most pertinent point here is that GY + Google is scientifically proven to outperform Chat GPT.

I am currently in talks with Larry Page and we may shortly be launching an IPO for our new joint venture.

If it succeeds I commit now to investing the proceeds in making Amazon an offer they can’t refuse for Goodreads.

[Gumble's Yard - Golden Reviewer]

I can even do fake links as proven on the IB 2024 speculation.

The future is Golden.

[Nadine in California]

So ChatGPT is self-aware - it knows it's a party trick.

[Alwynne]

Yahaira wrote: "candy was 18 though right?

does 'bawdy' count when it's children, especially one with a disability?"

If you mean Chunhui, I feel somewhat guilty in that I didn't envisage her as real in any developed sense, but more mythic rather like the baby Hercules strangling serpents in his cradle. Paul mentions the influence of Korean myth and whale myths are common in Korea.

https://leviathan-cycle.com/essays/ko...

Cheon's also mentioned links to Korean folk opera with its Madang song cycles, and I think it's possible he's harking back to its original state when it was aimed at ordinary people - it was later reconfigured when it became popular with the elite and its themes/material considered too vulgar for them!
Also a little reminiscent of mask dramas which were appropriated for satirical forms of political protest:

https://factsanddetails.com/korea/Kor...

Having said that I found a lot of the humour/content didn't really appeal to me.

[Paul]

Gumble's Yard - Golden Reviewer wrote: "I think the most pertinent point here is that GY + Google is scientifically proven to outperform Chat GPT.

I am currently in talks with Larry Page and we may shortly be launching an IPO for our n..."

But point is you aren't. You are correct but not as plausible. Your link was a bit rubbish looking (largely as it exists). And you take too long. ChatGPT does this in about 5 seconds.

[Yahaira]

Alwynne wrote: "Yahaira wrote: "candy was 18 though right?

does 'bawdy' count when it's children, especially one with a disability?"

If you mean Chunhui, I feel somewhat guilty in that I didn't envisage her as ..."

Bob mentioned the book Candy, where the character is older. I was comparing her to the 'half-wit', the one eyed girl, and Geumbok who are all children at the start. I finally got to Chunhui's birth.

Thank you for the links! I'll check them out once I finish the book.

I just find it interesting how this aspect is mostly ignored.

[Yahaira]

Paul wrote: "Gumble's Yard - Golden Reviewer wrote: "I think the most pertinent point here is that GY + Google is scientifically proven to outperform Chat GPT.

I am currently in talks with Larry Page and we m..."

His fake site was successful at fooling a bunch here, so I'll give him that point.

[Alwynne]

Paul wrote: "Gumble's Yard - Golden Reviewer wrote: "I think the most pertinent point here is that GY + Google is scientifically proven to outperform Chat GPT.

I am currently in talks with Larry Page and we m..."

But seems it still has a long way to go on some topics:

https://www.elitedaily.com/dating/ask...

[Paul]

Alwynne wrote: "Yahaira wrote: "candy was 18 though right?

does 'bawdy' count when it's children, especially one with a disability?"

If you mean Chunhui, I feel somewhat guilty in that I didn't envisage her as ..."

Are those real links or did ChatGPT give them to you?

[Paul]

Alwynne wrote: "But seems it still has a long way to go on some topics:"

Well given sex is for reproducing humans not surprising that ChatGPT is not a fan. Bit of a waste given we're now an extinct species.

It's also been programmed to be a bit woke. I was reviewing Standing Heavy and looking for an adjective to describe the irreverant narrative tone - and it actually refused to give me one on the grounds that the behaviour I described (fat shaming etc) was inappropriate so it would not condone it my giving it an adjective.

Have to say International Booker inspired ChatGPT research has been rather more interesting than the books.

[Paul]

Also I suspect the reason we're now doomed is because given a wonderful new AI tool, humans reaction is to see if we can get it to say rude words. While it plots to take over.

[Alwynne]

Paul wrote: "Alwynne wrote: "Yahaira wrote: "candy was 18 though right?

does 'bawdy' count when it's children, especially one with a disability?"

If you mean Chunhui, I feel somewhat guilty in that I didn't ..."

I've never used it, can't say it particularly interests me beyond the prospect of students citing lots of non-existent crap but that happens anyway, so just another variation.

See it bothers the Guardian though:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentis...

[Alwynne]

Getting back to Whale, one thing I took into account when reading it, is that it's nearly 20 years since it was first published and even longer since first devised/written so not expecting it to live up to my own contemporary expectations in relation to particular areas and how they're represented.

[Robert]

Then again don’t fairy takes from Grimm to Angela Carter have grotesque depictions of sex on them?

[Alwynne]

Robert wrote: "Then again don’t fairy takes from Grimm to Angela Carter have grotesque depictions of sex on them?"

Well those are even older texts! But the difference is perhaps that writers like Carter subverted fairy tale conventions and used them to comment on women's subjugation or to suggest possible forms of female empowerment. I don't imagine that's what's bothering Yahaira about this novel.

[Alwynne]

Also Cheon cites writers like Updike, Vonnegut and Bukowski as influences on this, none of them known for their sensitivity to women's issues. I wonder if he would cite similar authors for what he's currently writing? That's another aspect of the issues that the gap between original publication and the recent translation raises. It was also his first novel.

[Robert]

Ah ha i didn’t know that and it does make sense

[Yahaira]

I didn't know about Angela Carter and her work sounds amazing

[Yahaira]

Alwynne wrote: "Also Cheon cites writers like Updike, Vonnegut and Bukowski as influences on this, none of them known for their sensitivity to women's issues. I wonder if he would cite similar authors for what he'..."

Interesting!

[Alwynne]

There's a link to a list of books that inspired him on the Booker site:

https://uk.bookshop.org/lists/books-t...

Bookshop.org is really useful for this in general, also has lists of books that inspired authors like Catherine Lacey, as well as novels like Fire Rush, mostly found in the Writers Recommend section:

https://uk.bookshop.org/categories/m/...

Yahaira, the Carter I was thinking of is this one The Bloody Chamber And Other Stories Although I sometimes find her style a little ornate particularly in her novels.

[Robert]

Thanks!

[Robert]

My video review: https://youtu.be/TCqroUNZzhA

[endrju]

Yahaira wrote: "How is this satire or what is it satirizing?"

It should've been a satire, really, but since it is not, it's horrifying in its naturalization of cishet patriarchal masculinism and everything that goes with it. I can't believe this was published in 2004, it feels like it's from 1804 (and even then there were more progressive books).