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The Talisman Ring
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The Talisman Ring Group Read March 2023 SPOILER Thread
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How can we be expected to believe in an eighteen-year-old who genuinely believes being a governess would be exciting because the son of the house would be sure to fall in love with her? She sounds more like a six-year-old. And her constant romanticising of the Terror - at a time when this was still happening, in her own country -just beggars belief: it would be like a Ukrainian refugee today romanticising the Russian occupation.
CritterbeeI just noticed that your header tag call this a Jan 2023 read. Oops!
Critterbee❇ wrote: WOULD you ride ventre à terre to Eustacie's deathbed?Having ridden horses ventre à terre, I'd say: YES, just for the fun of it! Only flying would be better ...
Jennifer Kloester has some interesting background info on her website.https://jenniferkloester.com/talisman...
I was actually trying to find some info about this book being performed as a play - as I know it has been!
Jenny wrote: "I probably would ride ventre à terre to Eustacie's deathbed, if only to make quite sure she really did die! She's the one thing that spoils this book for me: she's just so infantile with all her ab..."This made me laugh! I agree, she's simply ridiculous. But I do love the way Sarah handles her and uses her excesses to tease Tristram into being more human.
Yes I knew I remembered this;https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
& I think there were earlier performances of it as a play as well. I might have to drag my Kloester out later!
Barb in Maryland wrote: "CritterbeeI just noticed that your header tag call this a Jan 2023 read. Oops!"
!!!! you are right! Thank you, it is fixed now <3
The four main players have now met, in the inn under the watchful eye of Nye, and the inattentive eye of Hugo. Each couple has a unique and adorable meeting, one that suits their relationship. Eustacie and Ludovic in an atmosphere of danger and adventure, while Sarah's composure and humor calmly intrigue Tristam and foil his brooding manner.
Jenny wrote: "She [Eustacie] is the one thing that spoils this book for me: she's just so infantile with all her absurd fantasies. ."I must be getting old, because I've noticed that I am becoming more and more tolerant of GH's young & silly heroines. I can even bring myself to consider their antics and their outrageous fantasies believable.
I have never been bothered by Eustacie's childishness, although I can't disagree when people explain why they are. (view spoiler)Critterbee, I love your post! so true and wonderfully put! Sarah really does, ever so gently, not allow Sir Tristram to brood.
I'm still at the beginning where The Beau is insinuating Sir Tristram is the murderer and stole the ring. He makes a good villain, kind of like (view spoiler)
Jackie wrote: "I'm still at the beginning where The Beau is insinuating Sir Tristram is the murderer and stole the ring. He makes a good villain,"I love GH's mystery-romance mixtures, such as this one or (view spoiler). She does it very well. At one time I thought the mystery, once solved, would spoil the re-reading, but it doesn't.
Eustacie has just run away and met Ludovic, who got shot. I've been smiling since this book started, which is perfect to counteract our chilly, rainy weather right now. Cup of hot tea and a funny Heyer novel - the prescription for whatever ails you.I might try to argue that Eustacie is immature because she's been so protected and given no education or guidance at all. And some people do seem to have a naivete that they don't ever outgrow. But I don't take anything in this book seriously, I think it's just one big romp, like a farce or melodrama, so I jump on and ride ventre à terre to keep up.
Though she did make me think of Catherine Moreland, the 17 year old girl from Northanger Abbey, who is also overly influenced by the gothic romances she's been reading. As a young girl I was disgusted by her "stupidity", as I saw it. As a much older woman I'm simply amused and entertained.
The Beau is slimy and makes my skin crawl when he talks about believing Ludovic's innocence. "Snake in the grass" is a good way to describe him, though not fair to most snakes, who are just hanging out not trying to hurt anyone. lol
ETA - Thanks for the link, I read both sections of the article, it was quite interesting, and I loved seeing the original covers for the book! I'd pick either of those up.
‘But I,’ said the Beau, languidly polishing his quizzing-glass, ‘prefer to believe Ludovic’s own story, that it was an owl he shot at.’Aaaah, the perfidy! … GH must have had a soft spot for us re-readers. ;-))
Mod
I think I'm getting less and less tolerant of Eustacie as I get old! I think I'm quite irrationally expecting her to grow up over time.
What struck me this time (although I surely must have noticed it before!) is that I agree with The Beau! Ludovic is a very stupid young man. Probably GH's least intelligent hero. Spoiler for two other GH books (view spoiler)
Mod
Aaaah, the perfidy! … GH must have had a soft spot for us re..."
Well, he has the best of reasons for knowing it's true!
Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ wrote: "Ludovic is a very stupid young man. Probably GH's least intelligent hero. Spoiler "But is he the hero? In my understanding, he's always the 'second order' protagonist.
Well, he has the best of reasons for knowing it's true!
It's the 'languidly polishing his quizzing-glass' part that I had in mind.
I look on both romances being of nearly equal importance - it is one of two things that make this book unique among GH's romances. (I'll discuss the other thing later) & in my young years I was more interested in Ludovic & Eustacie's romance.
Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ wrote: "I look on both romances being of nearly equal importance - it is one of two things that make this book unique among GH's romances. (I'll discuss the other thing later) & in my young years I was mor..."I was 19 or so when I first read this. While I was amused by Eustacie and Ludo (they were even featured on my paperback's cover
), it was the romance between Sarah and Sir Tristram that I was really interested in.My favorite review of this book sums up my feelings in a much more amusing way that I ever could. (see: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...)
Eustacie suffers from an excess of sensibility, as Jane Austen would define it. Sarah has more sense but she also seems to have a balance of sensibility. I like her sense of humor.
sabagrey wrote: "Jenny wrote: "She [Eustacie] is the one thing that spoils this book for me: she's just so infantile with all her absurd fantasies. ."I must be getting old, because I've noticed that I am becoming..."
Same here! Or, at least excusable, especially if they’ve been left in the hands of a flaky governess, or allowed to consume too many melodramatic novels.
sabagrey wrote: "Jackie wrote: "I'm still at the beginning where The Beau is insinuating Sir Tristram is the murderer and stole the ring. He makes a good villain,"I love GH's mystery-romance mixtures, such as thi..."
Agreed, they are fun and entertaining. Off to read some more, don’t want to consume any more spoilers -I’m in the sweet spot where it’s been just long enough since my last read that I’ve forgotten enough to still be surprised and entertained!
Barb in Maryland wrote: "Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ wrote: "I look on both romances being of nearly equal importance - it is one of two things that make this book unique among GH's romances. (I'll discuss the other thing later..."Oh, I’d forgotten that, lovely and funny! Thanks for posting the link, Barb, perfect!
Mod
I have always been desperately embarrassed by and for Catherine! I hardly ever read Northanger Abbey because I just cringe at what a complete fool she makes of herself. Getting caught as well! My toes are curling all over again at the thought of it.
Eustacie at least gets away with it, and the adults in her life are kind to her: if Tristram is impatient with her fantasies, she has the self-confidence to regard that as his problem.
sabagrey wrote: "Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ wrote: "Ludovic is a very stupid young man. Probably GH's least intelligent hero. Spoiler "But is he the hero? In my understanding, he's always the 'second order' protagoni..."
I find Ludovic deeply annoying - another of Heyer's infantile male characters (like Nicky in The Reluctant Widow) but he is, at the same time, quite realistic of a certain type of chap. I much prefer the other characters, and I do love the romance between Sarah and Tristan. I've only recently re-read this book so I probably won't read the whole of it again for this month, but dip in and out.
Even when I first read this aged sixteen, I was much more interested in Sarah and Tristram than Eustacie and Ludovic. I have grown more and more intolerant of the younger couple - Eustacie in particular - as I’ve grown older. I can put up with much in my fictional characters - but self-absorbed stupidity is a no-no for me. As GreyGirl said, Ludovic is too reminiscent of characters like Nicky in TRW to be enjoyable.
But otherwise, this book is such a joy to read and so well constructed. It’s a few years since I read this one so I’m looking forward to finishing this re-read.
It's interesting to read other's reactions to this book, especially Eustacie and Ludovic. I wonder if it's because our ideas of humor are so different? I think they are really funny, and I don't take them seriously at all. I do really like Sarah and Tristram - I'd forgotten Sarah's sense of humor. It's fun to watch her play along with Eustacie when they first meet. And she handles Tristram perfectly.
Ludovic is that headstrong person who just always does what they want and never really gets in trouble for anything. Accused of murder? his family sneaks him out of the country and he continues doing whatever he wants, including sneaking back in and smuggling! I never considered him a hero, just as a plot-advancer who brings out the best in the 'real' hero, my dear prickly Tristam. Tristam would not have a chance to show his loyalty, ingenuity, and drive to protect those he cares about without Ludovic's being such a child.
My eyes were always on Sarah and Tristam, with Eustacie and Ludovic being th annoying younger siblings who you felt protective of.
Susan in NC wrote: "sabagrey wrote: "Jenny wrote: "She [Eustacie] is the one thing that spoils this book for me: she's just so infantile with all her absurd fantasies. ."I must be getting old, because I've noticed t..."
I just realized, I’m well into the reread now, and still no one has remarked upon or asked Eustacie where she gets her romantic notions…I was thinking of another book, I think, where Heyer casually works it in that the heroine had had an excellent governess/nurse/aunt who was a fan of thrilling melodramatic novels or something, so that the reader knows, “ah, ok, not one of the grey-eyed sensible heroines, this is one of the flakey ones”, and settles in, preparing to read some whoppers, and enjoy the ensuing discomfort of the hero, silently wondering what he’s let himself in for, and how big of a cad would he be if he deposited her at the nearest inn…
Jenny wrote: "Teri-K wrote: "Though she did make me think of Catherine Moreland, the 17 year old girl from Northanger Abbey, who is also overly influenced by the gothic romances she's been reading. As a young gi..."Good point - wherever her wacky notions spring from, she’s very confident (having recently read a history of France, I still think she wouldn’t enjoy that tumbril, and her gown wouldn’t be white for long…)
GreyGirl wrote: "sabagrey wrote: "Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ wrote: "Ludovic is a very stupid young man. Probably GH's least intelligent hero. Spoiler "But is he the hero? In my understanding, he's always the 'second..."
Agreed - I find he and Eustacie are more like high energy puppies, frolicking about the feet of Tristram and Sarah - cute, funny, silly, more like comic fodder for the adults to react to, if you will.
Susan in Perthshire wrote: "Even when I first read this aged sixteen, I was much more interested in Sarah and Tristram than Eustacie and Ludovic. I have grown more and more intolerant of the younger couple - Eustacie in parti..."Same here, it’s been awhile, and my memory isn’t what it was, so I’m enjoying this immensely. Sarah is such a tolerant darling of a big sister, putting up with Eustacie’s flights of fancy; just finished the scene with The Beau at the dower house, and Tristram and Sarah are reporting their lack of progress. At first, sympathizing with Sarah for her embarrassing performance as an architecture enthusiast, I was frustrated with Eugenie’s criticism, and demanding the ring must be found, then I realized, (view spoiler)
Also, must put in a plug for the delightful narrator, Phyllida Nash, on my Audible- she is so fun, exactly how I imagine Sarah would sound, and all the other characters! She makes Eustacie sound like Leslie Caron in “Gigi”, one of my favorite movies of all time, so that helps me see her as young, charming, funny and outspoken. So glad I used credits to buy it years ago, before Audible made all her Heyer work disappear (Ulli Berve for the mysteries, also). I believe a non-US member has remarked her that new actors are doing Heyer? I haven’t been able to find any new recordings- even my city library doesn’t have Heyer audiobooks they used to carry.
Tristram has always been the hero of this book for me. Ludovic and Eustacie are the secondary characters. She is one annoying young lady but I can't help feeling sorry for her in a way. She's a young girl whose been stuck in the country with an old man and then she's expected to marry an older man and be stuck in the country again albeit a different part. No wonder she delves into flights of fancy. I love Sarah by the way. One of Heyer's best heroines.
Mod
Yes, she's had a rotten deal. Sylvester may have rescued her from the Terror, but seems to have given no thought to what will become of her after his death, until the last minute. You really wonder why he bothered, since he seems to have no affection for her. What on earth did he think would become of her if Tristram hadn't agreed to marry her? He didn't have any hold over Tristram, after all.
Teresa wrote: "Tristram has always been the hero of this book for me. Ludovic and Eustacie are the secondary characters. She is one annoying young lady but I can't help feeling sorry for her in a way. She's a you..."You raise a good point, Teresa, I hadn’t thought of it that way - Eustacie buried in the country with one old man, expected to marry another older, if not old, man in a different bit of country!
I love Sarah, too, she has such a great sense of humor and appreciation for the ridiculous! I like her relationship with her brother, too - clever of her to appreciate his company as a brother, traveling companion, housemate - seems much more agreeable than being stuck with someone, possibly not a good fit, on the Marriage Mart!
Jenny wrote: "Teresa wrote: "Tristram has always been the hero of this book for me. Ludovic and Eustacie are the secondary characters. She is one annoying young lady but I can't help feeling sorry for her in a w..."Yikes, you’re right! Sylvester did seem to see her as a loose end to be tied up - I think he might have given more thought to who should have his favorite horse or dog!
Teresa wrote: "Tristram has always been the hero of this book for me."Hero, ok - but first he needs to be shaken out of his fusty comfort zone, and Eustacie starts doing this right from the beginning. He must feel quite uneasy at the thought of being married to such a girl ;-)
sabagrey wrote: "Teresa wrote: "Tristram has always been the hero of this book for me."Hero, ok - but first he needs to be shaken out of his fusty comfort zone, and Eustacie starts doing this right from the begin..."
I imagine he feels he’s had a lucky escape!
I am sure he does, Susan in NC! Sabagrey wrote
he needs to be shaken out of his fusty comfort zone, and Eustacie starts doing this right from the beginning. He must feel quite uneasy at the thought of being married to such a girl
yes, exactly!
This morning I read the scene where the newly betrothed couple meet at breakfast, having decided they are going to make the best of each other
"Each at first glance felt moderately pleased with the other, a complacent mood which lasted for perhaps 10 minutes, at the end of which time Sir Tristram was contemplating with grim misgiving the prospect of encountering vivacity at the breakfast table for the rest of his life"
but Eustacie has run away with her bandboxes and met Ludovic and they are clearly made for each other. He is romantic and good looking and she is pretty enough he doesn't care about much else.
I love that she is fearless, at least about real dangers (she was afraid of the Headless Horseman) and when Ned Bundy wants to kill her - literally! - she interupts him "by announcing calmly that she was quite tired of him, a remark which surprised that ferocious gentleman so much that he could think of nothing to say"
hysterical!
Susan in NC wrote: "Teresa wrote: "Tristram has always been the hero of this book for me. Ludovic and Eustacie are the secondary characters. She is one annoying young lady but I can't help feeling sorry for her in a w..."Sir Hugh is another favourite of mine even though he doesn't appear for a lot of the book. He tells it like it is and is so oblivious to everything going on around him and yet knows what's happening.
I find myself giggling along as I read the dialogues - pure comedy gold. It feels like GH was visualising it as a burlesque comedy, with the classical set of characters - a main couple and a side couple, the villain, the landlord, the mostly off-stage Falstaff-like brother, and so on ... the stage is set, and here they enter and exit, performing their play-in-play parts to hilarious perfection.
sabagrey wrote: "I find myself giggling along as I read the dialogues - pure comedy gold. It feels like GH was visualising it as a burlesque comedy, with the classical set of characters - a main couple and a side..."
I very much see this as a play, too. It would have made a great period movie, if directed properly. It kind of reminds me of Arsenic and Old Lace, a staple of my childhood.
I happen to be a mystery lover, and most of Heyer's mysteries are quite good. But I think this could be included in that list of her mysteries - the element of finding the ring and solving the murder is so strong. And I love amusing mysteries, so this is a win-win for me.
I finished it last night, despite the fact that I wanted to make it last longer. It just flies along so quickly! Sarah is a wonderful character, as is her brother. I like their relationship a lot and how they accept each other as individuals. Sir Tristram joins the long list of Heyer men who are saved from a life of misery married to the wrong woman by a smart lady who fits him perfectly. I love that trope a lot in her hands!
Susan in NC wrote: "GreyGirl wrote: "sabagrey wrote: "Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ wrote: "Ludovic is a very stupid young man. Probably GH's least intelligent hero. Spoiler "But is he the hero? In my understanding, he's a..."
'Puppies' is exactly right! Which is why they don't annoy me. Plus I love the way GH makes a shared joke with the reader when Sarah says something with a straight face that Eustacie takes at face value - there are so many levels of conversation going on at the same time, I find it entertaining!
Teresa wrote: "Susan in NC wrote: "Teresa wrote: "Tristram has always been the hero of this book for me. Ludovic and Eustacie are the secondary characters. She is one annoying young lady but I can't help feeling ..."Yes, I love Sir Hugh, I want to adopt his way of life - travel, fine meals, good company, and the gift to enjoy the situation you find yourself in, but don’t get wrapped up in knots over it!
Ah wrote: "Susan in NC wrote: "GreyGirl wrote: "sabagrey wrote: "Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ wrote: "Ludovic is a very stupid young man. Probably GH's least intelligent hero. Spoiler "But is he the hero? In my u..."
Yes, exactly!
Teri-K wrote: "sabagrey wrote: "I find myself giggling along as I read the dialogues - pure comedy gold. It feels like GH was visualising it as a burlesque comedy, with the classical set of characters - a main ..."
You summed this up perfectly for me - especially the ‘Arsenic and Old Lace’ comparison. I also think this would make a very fun movie- it moves along at a good clip, and a movie allows ‘showing’ instead of ‘telling’, so the bits where everyone has to explain things that have happened (like Tristram and Sarah’s unsuccessful search at the Dower House), could be smoother and not repeated, tightening up the pace even more.
This was my first Heyer as a teenager and will always have a special place in my heart. I think that Sarah Thane and Sir Tristram are the main course in this novel (as designated in the review linked by Barb) but Eustacie and Ludovic make excellent foils for their older and wiser characters. Eustacie's flights of fancy allow us to see Sarah's humorous streak as well as her compassion and tolerance. We also see Tristram, decidedly intolerant at the beginning, grow in this area as the novel progresses.Eustacie is clearly a teenager who views life as a paperback novel with herself as its heroine, and heroines always overcome their travails to emerge triumphant in the end, n'est-ce pas? To balance out this addiction to romantic melodrama, she exhibits (as pointed out in previous comments) courage and a cool head in emergencies (something I wish I had!). I like her because I believe she will outgrow these adolescent fantasies in time while her more admirable qualities will remain.
Ludovic is the male counterpart of Eustacie. Despite the false charge brought against him and the dangerous life it forces him to adopt, he manages to escape every threat to his life. Again, it is not uncommon for young people (though not a teenager, he's still young) to feel invincible to death. Like Eustacie, he can't really imagine a scenario in which he will actually die, and this attributes to his careless behavior.
Had Ludovic and Eustacie been responsible, thoughtful characters, Sir Tristram and Sarah would have still helped them, but it is the melodramatic streak that their escapades evoke that allows Sarah to have so much fun and Tristram to reveal his well-hidden humorous side.
Mod
Yes, that's hilarious, the way Sarah takes the mickey out of Eustacie's absurdities while seeming to go along with them. Even Tristram doesn't cotton on at first, and thinks she's as silly as Eustacie. This is definitely one of GH's funniest.
There’s no doubt that this book showcases GH’s unparalleled expertise in every aspect of her writing craft . Her plotting is absolutely spot-on. The characters are individually well crafted and then utilised in a continually well choreographed set of movements which she uses to execute her story. Her dialogue is always absolutely perfect for the occasion and the character. Sarah and Tristram are the real attraction for me - and whilst I enjoy all the side pieces, it is them that hold my interest to the last page!
Georgette Heyer Fans
Books mentioned in this topic
The Case of the Canterfell Codicil (other topics)The Talisman Ring (other topics)
The Talisman Ring (other topics)
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What did you think? If this was a re-read, did you discover something new or did your feelings change about the book? WOULD you ride ventre à terre to Eustacie's deathbed?