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Revised Policy: Comic Book Naming Conventions [closed to feedback]
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Anne wrote: "This whole switchover has been a nightmare."I've seen more people complain about recent changes, but as far as I know, the current way series are listed has always been the policy (or at least since 2015, when I became active on Goodreads).
Ok. Then let's not call it a switchover. It is easier for me to find comics when they are listed by volume number. Like Grimlock, I don't know the name of the series that I'm reading, I just usually know that I'm reading Moon Knight Volume 3 by {insert author here}.
I understand that it looks ugly to many people, but that is how they are sold to us in stores or checked out to us in libraries. And that is always the way I was able to look up comics and add them to my Goodreads reading list.
And I've been active on Goodreads since 2008.
Chad wrote: "Grimlock wrote: "To be honest, I trust Amazon very little after they stripped Comixology of it's own website, which was much easier to use, so I always assumed if there was a bad decision at GR - l..."What? No...
Anne wrote: "Ok. Then let's not call it a switchover. It is easier for me to find comics when they are listed by volume number. Like Grimlock, I don't know the name of the series that I'm reading, I just usual..."
Yeah, I remember getting a message about it and thinking it would be a nightmare and it was for a while.
Lately I can just search The Boys Volume 8 - which I'm currently reading - and finding it but it was just listed as Highland Laddie? Whatever the title is, I've already forgotten, lol. Most times you say something like The Boys volume eight - and since there's only one The Boys in comics - people know what you're talking about. If you listed the title of the arc - Highland Laddies, whatever - without The Boys and specifying volume, far, far fewer people would know what you're talking about.
Grimlock wrote: "Lately I can just search The Boys Volume 8 - which I'm currently reading - and finding it but it was just listed as Highland Laddie? ."LOL! Yeah, I just try for the comic and then click around on the Amazon links till I find the correct volume. It's a mess. I've pretty much stopped listing anything from Marvel or DC that I read on here because it's just too much work to find the right volumes.
Grimlock wrote: "Lately I can just search The Boys Volume 8 - which I'm currently reading - and finding it but it was just listed as Highland Laddie? "The Boys, Volume 8: Highland Laddie
This title was last changed in 2014, and at that time only the letters "vol" were changed to volume. I don't know why you would have had trouble finding it.
Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "Grimlock wrote: "Lately I can just search The Boys Volume 8 - which I'm currently reading - and finding it but it was just listed as Highland Laddie? "[book:The Boys, Volume 8: Highland Laddie|99..."
There was a point where things were changing so that it just used Highland Laddie - The Boys was not searchable. A bunch of graphic novels switched over like that and it was really hard to find things.
I guess they realized that and switched it back, at least for some and it's searchable /now/ but again some were just really bad to find because they only used the story arc title, not even the series itself - The Boys, Moon Knight, whatever - was searchable. Some were, some weren't, but they were shifting that way - even though many asked them not to and explained why it was going to be hard.
I remember saying I blamed Amazon because I didn't trust them then, too, lol.
Anne wrote: "Grimlock wrote: "Lately I can just search The Boys Volume 8 - which I'm currently reading - and finding it but it was just listed as Highland Laddie? ."LOL! Yeah, I just try for the comic and the..."
I've been finding it's getting better, but anything that helps more is good imo.
Grimlock wrote: "I guess they realized that and switched it back, at least for some and it's searchable /now/ but again some were just really bad to find because they only used the story arc title, not even the series itself "Well, it's really hard to consider complaints about things that were corrected 8 years ago.
Not that I think there aren't things to complain about at Goodreads. Like wrong dates displayed on the new book page.
Grimlock wrote: "There was a point where things were changing so that it just used Highland Laddie - The Boys was not searchable. A bunch of graphic novels switched over like that and it was really hard to find things.."I know what you're talking about. I've blocked people from my feed who were actively changing the titles over in order to keep them away from the stuff I was reading at the time.
I am voting for the new change of Series, Vol #: Subtitle which WAS the standard on this site until recently. I am for this change because Series, Vol #: Subtitle is already the standard used in the comic industry. It is what everyone who reads comics expects and will just cause unnecessarily confusion for readers on this site. I sent in an email about this very issue in the past when it came to my attention that someone was changing the titles. Doing that made searching for titles a very frustrating endeavour. I am sure the average reader does not want to go through frustration when trying to use a ‘user friendly’ website. I am also against not numbering the series page. I don’t think it is redundant but clarifying for series with multiple runs, which means multiple Volume 1s. Being able to number the series page gives extra info that can be very important to the reader.
Then there is the issue of many comic series not even using a subtitle. In the comic industry, subtitles have never been a focus. Readers do not know a series from the subtitles but from the series title itself.
Finally, Goodreads uses an automation system for adding comics to the system. This system already uses the standard of Series, Vol #: Subtitle. Should Librarians (who are volunteers) be made to change every single title that gets added?
Whitney wrote: "I am voting for the new change of Series, Vol #: Subtitle which WAS the standard on this site until recently."It wasn't. See the first post. The standard has always been Title (Series #1) The fact that many comics readers added them as Series, Vol #: Subtitle doesn't change that.
Whitney wrote: "I am voting for the new change of Series, Vol #: Subtitle which WAS the standard on this site until recently. I am for this change because Series, Vol #: Subtitle is already the standard used in th..."+1
As a comic book reader/collector this makes sense as it seems closest to industry norm.
As a Librarian this makes sense because it means less work when it comes to imported titles.
As an author of many comic books and collected editions, it is important to be clear about the order of the volumes.I urge you to continue with the Vol. 1, Vol. 2, Vol. 3 naming structure. You can add a descriptor after it, but the volume numbers are important for readers, collectors, and comic shops.
People who have wanted to read some of my work on Deadpool would find my work difficult to track down. There's no "storyline" per se because we were writing a monthly series in 2- to 3-issue arcs. You can find some of my stories in Deadpool Classic: Vol. 7 and in Deadpool Classic: Vol. 8.
That's it. There's no additional subtitle. The Title + Vol. # are the only way for a reader to find collected editions that contain my Deadpool work.
Here is how the publisher Marvel Comics has it listed on their website:
https://www.marvel.com/comics/collect...
Buddy hits on a really good point I don’t think anyone except Jayson has noted here yet. The publishers actually call the comics by the accepted comic naming convention which is comic name, vol number: subtitleIf you check the publication page of 99% of comics you’ll see that’s the title format publishers of comics use and how they’re referred to on their official websites and catalogues.
Gotta love previous goodreads management and some librarians on here right now (some of whom don’t even read comics themselves!!) trying to suggest they know more than 1. The authors/artists of the actual comics, 2. Publishers of the actual comics, and 3. Their parent company Amazon on how a collected edition of a comic should be named.
Forget some people’s non-arguments, you can’t get past the fact that LEGALLY the comics all follow the comic name, vol number: subtitle format and apart from variations of the format for non-American/English language comics (see my comments on manga title formatting above) I honestly can’t find a basis for even entertaining an argument against this.
Kadi wrote: "you can’t get past the fact that LEGALLY the comics all follow the comic name, vol number: subtitle format"Legally? You mean it is laid down in law? Could you point me to it, please?
NB In case you think I am one of the librarians opposing this change with "non-arguments", I am actually in favour of it (excepting bandes dessinées), but please don't talk nonsense.
8 years ago? I remember getting a plea in my inbox FOUR MONTHS ago. Which is when comics started getting unsearchable; if you think your users have old complaints which were addressed years ago, and nothing since then, you’re sorely mistaken. Just last year, it was nearly impossible to find some titles because comic readers use series title and volume far more than subtitle/story arc.
Grimlock wrote: "8 years ago? I remember getting a plea in my inbox FOUR MONTHS ago. Which is when comics started getting unsearchable; if you think your users have old complaints which were addressed years ago, an..."About https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/9... ? Because, as Elizabeth says, that title hasn't been changed since 2014. So if you or someone else had trouble finding it, it wasn't due to the title being incorrect.
lethe wrote: "Legally? You mean it is laid down in law? Could you point me to it, please?..."Hi Lethe, thanks for your comment. If you’re actually in favour of changing the format then why are you arguing with me quite aggressively?
Legally and laid down in law are not synonymous. As I’ve already said in my previous comment you should look at the publication page in any trade paperback or hardcover collected edition of a comic.
Kadi wrote: "Hi Lethe, thanks for your comment. If you’re actually in favour of changing the format then why are you arguing with me quite aggressively?Legally and laid down in law are not synonymous. As I’ve already said in my previous comment you should look at the publication page in any trade paperback or hardcover collected edition of a comic."
You were aggressive by typing 'legally' in all-caps and being derisive of librarians who merely state GR policy.
'Legal' means 'according to the law', so I'd say that they are synonymous. Publication pages have no legal force. If they had, it would mean that GR policy had been illegal all this time, and I hope you realize that is not the case.
Goodreads is perfectly allowed to make their own rules regarding cataloguing books, as they have always done. It's a 'take it or leave it' thing.
Just be happy that they are finally willing to listen to the comic book readers.
Alright. Apparently, lethe just wants to argue that this was somehow always the format and that we're all crazy. Great. Who cares. Let's move on, please.The point we are trying to make is that somehow the system is now less searchable than it has been in the past. Is it magic?
The world may never know.
We have multiple comic readers and even comic book authors asking for the Series, Vol #: Subtitle format because it is the way we intuitively search for titles.
Lethe I think you’ve misunderstood me. I’m not saying goodreads has acted illegally. I’m simply stating that from a legal perspective the collected editions have been published with a legally recognised name. To change the format of this legally recognised name to such an extent as to render it unrecognisable to a reader is confusing and baseless.What I’m trying to say is that it makes no sense to change the formatting of a name that is recognised by the readers, writers and artists, publishers and copyright/publication law.
And besides, if we want to be pedantic, legal does mean according to the law. But according to the law and laid down in law, as you said before, are not the same. Laid down in law relates to statutes and legislations and no one has legislated on this matter or else that really would put an end to this discussion!
Kadi wrote: "Lethe I think you’ve misunderstood me. I’m not saying goodreads has acted illegally. I’m simply stating that from a legal perspective the collected editions have been published with a legally recog..."Ah, OK. Then we're on the same page :)
I'll wager that legally Jacklyn comes along here shortly and thanks us for all the feedback and then promptly closes this thread.
Honestly, I think what is missing from the original post is that recognition isn't being given to individual comics and comic collections.Individual comics would not have a Volume # I believe as Volumes are collections of several individual issues. Individual comics (that have an ASIN or ISBN) could still include the parenthetical series name and number.
I think that the "new" naming convention (not really new as referenced in several posts in this thread) for collections could include series numbering in parentheses. As series numbering for any series title is not required, this should be shown as optional in the manual.
Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "Individual comics (that have an ASIN or ISBN) could still include the parenthetical series name and number."That would be needlessly repetitive. E.g. Saga #1 would become Saga #1 (Saga, #1).
Jayson wrote: "Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "Individual comics (that have an ASIN or ISBN) could still include the parenthetical series name and number."That would be needlessly repetitive. E.g. Saga #1 would beco..."
Adding the parenthetical series name is optional for all series, regardless of what type of series, not just comics. Please note that I posted "could" not "should".
I'm not understanding the search problems some are claiming to have. If I enter "moon knight 2" Dead Will Rise is the first result. Even if I type just "knight moon" it's still in the top five. The order of the words does NOT matter.
Scott wrote: "I'm not understanding the search problems some are claiming to have. If I enter "moon knight 2" Dead Will Rise is the first result. Even if I type just "knight moon" it's still in the top five. The..."The problem is that it can get mixed up with issues. And that there are there are many series that have the same name (Superman for example). So you would have to search through a bunch of different superman series without the volume number. The one's that pop up first are the more popular titles or newest titles.
Jayson wrote: "I am entirely in support of this change to the Series, Volume #: Subtitle convention, as I believe the vast majority of comic book readers on this site are.My preference would be to get rid of th..."
I totally agree!
Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "Individual comics would not have a Volume # I believe as Volumes are collections of several individual issues. Individual comics (that have an ASIN or ISBN) could still include the parenthetical series name and number."Elizabeth (Alaska) - I think individual modern comics (floppies) include the volume number in the indicia.
We would catalog Fantastic Four #1 from 1961 like this:
Fantastic Four Vol. 1, No. 1.
After the first reboot in 1996, it became Fantastic Four Vol. 2, No. 1.
Here's how that looks:
https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Fantas...
Again, going back to the top of the conversation. For collected editions:
Title Name: Vol. #: Subtitle
Buddy wrote: "Again, going back to the top of the conversation. For collected editions:Title Name: Vol. #: Subtitle."
Which is, I believe, how most of them are currently catalogued. My earlier post showed several and queried if we were not just codifying current practice.
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Individual comics must have an ASIN or ISBN to be included in the Goodreads catalog.
Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "Which is, I believe, how most of them are currently catalogued."Cool. Good stuff.
@Lethe lol it’s alright then!I think there’s a general consensus to be honest, so this has been a valuable discussion and I hope the vast majority opinion is given significant weight in whatever decision is made next.
I think The current format is easier to read.
thanks for all the data and for guiding us to a better way to add more books
Mod
As Elizabeth predicted, I'll be closing this thread so I can work through the feedback and come up with a workable solution. I'll put this past the Goodreads team, post an announcement in the Group and make any relevant updates to the Librarian Manual.
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I've had a hard time finding a few of the comic titles I've been looking for recently because they weren't listed by volume anymore. Sometimes I would end up finding a comic that I thought was volume #1 but it was actually just issue #1. This whole switchover has been a nightmare. I've personally had to use workarounds (like clicking the link to another site) to check and see if I was looking at the right volume.