The Book That Wouldn't Burn (The Book That Wouldn't Burn #1)[May 15, 2023]

[Paula]

Nirkatze (view spoiler)[yeah, I think I read his first Book of ice book and I found it was okay, not as great as book of the ancestors or the broken empire or even prince of fools. I am enjoying this one more than that book but it's not as amazing as the others unfortunately

I agree that the siblings seems like all the knowledge of the book left no room in their heads to grow. And there was even a line that Livira even wondered if reading that many books makes was harmful to her because it takes something out of her or something like that (hide spoiler)]

[Beena]

Chapter 20 (view spoiler)[ I have no idea why Livira thought it was a good idea to go wondering around in that library all by herself?! Giving me the creeps. I'm surprised at how creepy/foreboding it's seeming, I kind of thought it would be more of the wondrous/amazing sort.. (hide spoiler)]

[Beena]

Can't say I've read as much into the story so far as you have Nirkatze!

Re Epigraphs (view spoiler)[ I've also noticed a few names from Broken Empire cropping up in them. I did wonder if he was doing it purely to mess with us lol cos there seems to be no other connection. (hide spoiler)]

[Tammie]

Up to chapter 40. (view spoiler)[I thought some time difference stuff was going on and it finally got confirmed in one of the chapters. I'm still not loving this book. It's take it or leave it for me, but I am enjoying Livira's chapters a bit. (hide spoiler)]

[Nirkatze]

Paula wrote: "Nirkatze yeah, I think I read his first Book of ice book and I found it was okay, not as great as book of the ancestors or the broken empire or even prince of fools. I am enjoying this one more tha..."

I'm glad to see I'm not the only one feeling those parallels! Feeling like I like this a little more than Book of Ice so far, but no where near the others...

@Beena, re: Epigraphs--when I actually pay attention and try to remember the epigraphs, I can notice connections/foreshadowing... but they often aren't what it seems like on the first glance, or it might be just surface and the deeper meaning might be ignored... I think it'd be kinda fun to do more analysis on that, but I don't really care enough about the story to waste time on it. LOL

One example--Chapter 30's epigraph: (view spoiler)[says Trust is the most insidious of poisons, but there are many alternatives that serve almost as well. As with comedy, delivery is a vital component. If the target is aware of the attack, the chances for success are immediately much reduced. and is by Sister Apple--who I'm pretty sure was poisons master in the Book of the Ancestor.

And the chapter is the one where Livira & co get poisoned. So that's pretty straightforward.

But the epigraph also talks about trust, and being aware of attacks coming... and that doesn't really seem to be touched on at all in the chapter. The other big ideas are the introduction of trying to make weapons to destroy the sabbers, the idea of history as a cycle, and a hint that knowledge can lead to destruction. (hide spoiler)]

I just read Chapter 43, and its epigraph was: (view spoiler)[It’s in the nature of humans to want to belong to a group, to want to be accepted, appreciated, and needed. What is most frightening about their kind are the sacrifices they are prepared to make in order to become part of such a tribe, clique, sect, sewing circle, cult, or book club. Reason and morality are often at the top of the list of what must be surrendered as part of the club fees. Truth becomes a collective property, an adaptable shield used to shelter the in-group from those outside. Dogs, on the other hand, are great.

And it introduces the Dog again, right away. Also Aprix comes in and helps Livira with the book. But unless we're supposed to be suspicious of Aprix, I don't really see how the bit about wanting to belong to a group and adjusting morality applies to this chapter--though it could be applied to Livira's overall acceptance of the City's view on sabbers (over Yute's). (hide spoiler)]

Overall, I think the epigraphs are more pretentious than useful. LOL

[Nirkatze]

Paula wrote: "until chapter 28. It's a very slow book, very different from Mark Lawrence other series. And I agree that Liviras POV chapters are mote engaging.

[spoilers removed]"

I'm also finding Livira more engaging, but like Tammie, I can kind of take-it-or-leave it as a whole so far... it feels like it is reaching for big ideas but isn't quite enticing enough to make me want to spend time mulling over them...

In-universe or out-universe? More thoughts on Epigraphs (view spoiler)[I just flipped through all the book and hunted for epigraphs either by Mark Lawrence or characters from his books. So far, I found Chapters (view spoiler)[2 (William Ancrath), 28 (Prince of Fools), 30 (Sister Apple), 45 (Jorg of Ancrath), 46 ("During the Dance" by Mark Lawrence) (hide spoiler)] for sure, two Mark Lawrence and three characters. There's also a bunch of in-universe books, like the history of Crath City and the one mentioning sabbers, as well as a book by Yute (chapter 12) and one by Mayland (19). That also makes Mark Lawrence the only author to have TWO epigraphs. I've tried googling a bunch of the supposed authors, books, and quotes--and so far the only REAL books are the Mark Lawrence ones, though a bunch look really close... (hide spoiler)]

The pool--(view spoiler)[I'm thinking that Jorg &al's world must be in on of the pools--as is our world (though Jorg's world is supposedly also our world in the future), making all the book worlds connected, just not directly connected.

Also, the forest and pools between worlds seriously remind me of Narnia! The Magician's Nephew has a very similar system. (hide spoiler)]

Continuation of last comment, but with a quote from Chapter 43--(view spoiler)[I just stumbled across this tidbit: Wanderers stumbling through portals, falling into pools, borne there by magic rings or wizard’s spells—in one case even an enchanted button! HAH! The magic rings is the Magician's Nephew rings. and the enchanted button I think could be a reference to The Magicians. Wizard's spells is like, every other book ever, so not even going to bother. (hide spoiler)]

[Nirkatze]

Finished Chapter 43 and I have several thoughts... (view spoiler)[Ok, so Livira wants to summon the Raven. Why doesn't she do the same thing that caught its attention the first time, and tear a page out of a book?

Second thing--blood of a "white one"--well, my first thoughts were of Yute and Yamala, not the Assistants--though the first doorway to the Exchange was a pool of an Assistant's blood.

There was something else I was thinking of but can't remember... (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 44 LOL quote: (view spoiler)[“... And thirdly, my family had five dogs that I grew up with, Alpha, Beta, Gamma, Delta, and Jim.” Of course, Jim. This made me laugh.

And of course the Raven would be Edgarallen. I would say why not Nevermore, but Poe is the author, so that makes more sense.

And I think "Volente" means "wishes" "desires" or "willing" in Latin... Volos means "I wish" and "deo volente" means "god willing"

Thinking that Lawrence is probably a dog person.

And I thought the whole reason Livira was looking for a different way into the Exchange was because she locked up the Escape in the same room as her entrance--so why the hell is she trying to get back through that same door? (hide spoiler)]

[Nirkatze]

Chapter 46, earlier thoughts... (view spoiler)[I'm sure it's pretty obvious, but after Livira talked about writing her journal on the endpages of different books that just cemented the thought that Evar's book is Livira's journal--that it's made of up of pages of different sizes, all raggedy edged. I wonder if he's ever going to show her the book?

Also, when they poked their heads through the pool into another world, and Livira got scalded by the atmosphere, but Evar was a ghost--I wonder if that was Jorg's world and time, in one of the burning zones? Or even that world, during the time when the whole globe was on fire? (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 48 (view spoiler)[Two white children? Yute & Yamara? They do seem to be kind of timeless... I wonder if this book will get more into their origins or if that will be saved for later.

And of course, they ask for peace and so they're given a scene right after War has killed everyone. And it would make sense that Yute & Yamara come from such a time, when the weapons of knowledge have wiped out both sides...

Interesting about Evar & Livira being sabbers to each other. I was kind of wondering if that might be the case, especially when that Assistant that Volante led them to spoke the sabber tongue... which makes this kind of a Romeo & Juliet-esque story too... (hide spoiler)]

HAH! Chapter 49--(view spoiler)[The Exchange is an inter-library loan system!!!! LOL (hide spoiler)]

[Nirkatze]

Has anyone finished the book yet?

[Paula]

I forgot to write my thoughts but u finished (view spoiler)[nice twits about the different species. I was a bit suspicious when she kissed him but it was well done. In hindsight Lawrence didn't describe the sabbers that attacked clover when she was a child.

Yute being an assistant took me by surprise a bit. I thought he was another species that came through the library since he was being so cryptic

I am curious how Evans brother knew about meelan and how he can help livira (hide spoiler)]

[Paula]

Nirkatze (view spoiler)[ That epigraph written by Apple from the book of the ancestor was the highlight for me. But I didn't like most of the epigraphs because sometimes they had no connection or I didn't understand what they were about

About the in-universe epigraphs. They were a lot. The crath city one I was not sure because I didn't remember if it was named like that but it was so close to ancrath that I figured it was the same. I also think there was one from Jorg's wife at the end but, again, I couldn't be sure

Yeah, the pool makes it easy to connect every world and that's very cool. That's why I thought yute could be one of those people. I wonder if we will get people from other worlds, even a cameo from a character of another book.

Exactly! The pools and forest did also remind me of Narnia (and the magicians but since its based on narnia its the same)

Oohh, I didn't notice that. The ring and the button. That's neat!

Maybe livraison didn't want to have to hear the ravens ear splitting squaks. But you are right

I didn't know the meaning of volente, thanks. I was always laughing when reading the name since in Spanish Volante means steering wheel and that is very similar to Volente

I know, I was confused and then she was surprised when they told her that it was still there...

I hadn't thought of that world being jorgs. It could make sense

Imagine reading books by different species and in different words...that's so awesome (hide spoiler)]

[MillaTortellini]

I'm almost done now (I think chapter 65).
(view spoiler)[ I am still not sure if you really need the epigraphs or if there are just there for worldbuilding. If I remember correctly, there was an epigraph from a famous author from "our" world (haha :D), where the letters of their name were just exchanged. But I forgot where it was, damn :D
The book reminds me in parts of His dark Materials and Stange the Dreamer. I think its the relationship between the two protagonists. Especially when they visited other worlds as ghosts and could fly around and go through walls and stuff like that.
And that's a really cool part of the book, I think it leaves so much room for imagination and dreaming. It lets your mind constantly be active and trying to solve mysteries or find equivalents to our world (for example the assistents, where some of us thought they might be AI) or trying to find similarities to other books.
Thanks for the meaning for Volente! Thats interesting. (hide spoiler)]

[Nirkatze]

Grats on the finish Paula! Looking forward to your spoiler tag...

I can see why you found the epigraphs annoying... lol. I definitely think they are a somewhat pretentious, rather than helpful, addon. (view spoiler)[I'll have to keep a look out for that Jorg's wife one! And even though it's obvious, I hadn't thought of the connection between Crath and Ancrath... I can't see the Library's city being connected to Ancrath though...

Steering wheel!! That's hilarious!

It would be so cool to have access to libraries across the multiverse... but we'd have to have dictionaries too! Or access to a world like the Exchange, where we can understand all languages. (hide spoiler)]

I am decided I will sit here with a tub of ice cream until I finish the book, darnit.

Oh! I remembered my other "Livira, why don't you just..." thought: (view spoiler)[when she was trying to open the book she stole from Yamara and couldn't figure out the lock--why not just bring it into the mechanism and learn it from the inside? (hide spoiler)]

End of Chapter 51, more LOLs: (view spoiler)[
“In a manner of speaking. It depends how you measure distance.” Yute’s pink eyes met Livira’s gaze. “Did she look well? I expected you to have news, but I don’t think anything else you might have to say could surprise me more than Yamala agreeing to see you.”

“I kissed a sabber.”

“I stand corrected.”

LOL Great way to end a chapter.

So, thinking more about the Assistants... first--Yute and Yamara have to be connected to them somehow, with the description "the white ones" and where Livira saw them--in a city empty of people save Assistants.

Second--both Elvar and Livira think the Assistants/Soldier look like them, are people like them. So... our description of sabbers (from Livira's POV) can't be accurate... or they're just a race of very tall people, and the ones she ran in to were particularly hairy and had grown out their fingernails or something. So I went back and found the description:

...She could see it now. The figure wasn’t human. You could see it in their gait. And now, as it drew closer, something about the face. The sabber walked with a suppressed bounce as if holding back from some great leap at every step. Its legs bent too low down and were never fully straight; its shoulders rose as if beneath its hide armour there was a great ball of muscle at each joint. Closer still and she could make out the sharp angle of his cheekbones, and his mouth that was almost like Yaller’s dog’s: lipless, promising canines. Old Kern said the city folk called them dog-men these days and had new theories about their unclean origins.

The sabber’s stiff, swept-back mane didn’t end in a hairline but rather seemed to shorten into invisibility⁠—as if, were she to stroke his face, Livira would feel the hairs there too, short and bristling. The seam of an old scar ran up across one brow, holding the eye beneath it wider than the other, creating a curiously unbalanced stare.

The bristlyness of the hair came back when Livira kissed Elvar--she thought that even though he was clean-shaven, she felt bristles... but the other aspects--different musculature around the arms, the bowed legs, and liplessness over canines, claws... those should be more visibly obvious. So why haven't either of their peoples noticed a distinct difference in the Assistants? Unless Elvar's two--being the only two he has ever seen, are two made to look like sabber-people? And there are others that resemble them, but they all avoid the humans since they took the library? (hide spoiler)]

[Nirkatze]

I'm looking forward to your spoiler tag Milla! Almost there...

Chapter 56 (view spoiler)[Ah, so we finally get to the title--or the burning part at least. (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 57 (view spoiler)[Wait a minute, Elvar! You were JUST thinking that your book had to be some different author, and Livira was an evil distraction. When did YOU come to the conclusion that your book was her book? I don't think he stuck around to see her compile it, did he? He and Clovis went back before that...

Yute & Yamara've could be the Soldier and the Assistant... that could be why they're familiar to Elvar... maybe they can go back to being Assistants again? (hide spoiler)]

[Nirkatze]

Chapter 62--(view spoiler)[Oh cool, Livira could open the closed doors! Skeer were mentioned in one of the epigraphs--the one about sitting down to tea with different species... it said something about them preferring to dismember their prey live... ick. (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 63--Another character epigraph, (view spoiler)[one I didn't find first search--Olidan Ancrath is Jorg & William's father. (hide spoiler)]

[Nirkatze]

MillaTortellini wrote: "I'm almost done now (I think chapter 65).
I am still not sure if you really need the epigraphs or if there are just there for worldbuilding. If I remember correctly, there was an epigraph from a f..."

Made it through 65!!--(view spoiler)[Yeah, I noticed a lot of epigraphs which poked at my memory like they should have been from our world... like The Three Hundred Lives of Jemimah Button made me think of The Curious Case of Benjamin Button, and there was an epigraph from the book "Illusion" by Copper Davidfield, and David Copperfield is a famous magician--and the name of a Dickens book.

But yeah, mostly worldbuilding, with a small bit of foreshadowing. I think fully half or more of the epigraphs are fully in-world related to the library or the library myth.

Oooh, really nice parallel to Strange the Dreamer! I totally see that. And I get the His Dark Materials one too. And this book definitely does have more mysteries to solve, I think... (hide spoiler)]

[Nirkatze]

Chapter 66--(view spoiler)[maybe the two Assistants captured by the Escapes are the ones who raised Elvar & co? One did say they weren't pure... and one of them has a sword... (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 67--(view spoiler)[Malar jumping into the Assistant holding a sword makes it more likely that Assistant is the Soldier... or at least, where the imprint of swordplay could have come from... I just really hope they don't get trapped in them... though we're getting close enough to the end that it'd be a good cliffhanger. Eek. (hide spoiler)]

[Nirkatze]

Finished! Finally! Enjoyed it--but some parts felt rather sloggy. Fun twists... but I saw most of them coming, if not from very far away. Still curious about several things... and hoping (view spoiler)[that Yute's daughter shows up at some point...

Curious about the same things you are Paula... (hide spoiler)]

[Tammie]

I've taken a break from it again. Hopefully I'll feel like picking it up soon.

[Paula]

Milla (view spoiler)[yeah, I get the His dark materials comparison

I also agree that it's a slow book and its much more interesting when you pause to think about it more and that's why on reread it will be more interesting as we now know the overall plot and can concentrate on the details (hide spoiler)]

[Paula]

Nirkatze (view spoiler)[ exactly, ancrath and crath are so different that it's difficult to think they are the same (maybe). Or maybe it's like there are some key points in some planets with a similar name regardless of the planet. Like in Tess of the emerald sea with a certain name (I am keeping it vague if there are people who hadn't read it)

I don't mind learning new languages via dictionaries if there are interesting books. A place like the Exchange would be so much cooler. That way you can understand everyone and it also makes learning a language easier

I think Livira would have taken the book into the exchange as a last ditch effort. She was too flustered to think straight too

The end of chapter 51 is awesome. I laughed a lot

I didn't remember Evar saying the assistant was like him, but probably since if not he would have mentioned it or clovis with her hatred for humans. But the assistant and soldier I think were human shaped. Now I am confused too

I was almost thinking the title of the book was random when that chapter appeared

When we thought the sabbers where the enemy now it's the skeer. I wonder if they will remain as black and white villains or be like the sabbers

okay, mabe the epigraph I mentioned before was jorgs father. I certainly don't remember many names of tbe broken empire

definetly. In fantasy I don't believe a death until I see the corpse and even then it's not for sure... so I also believe the daughter of yute is alive somewhere (hide spoiler)]

[MillaTortellini]

Yeah, I also think on a reread this will be much more interesting. And I think at least I have to reread before the next book comes out :D It's so hard for me to remember all those details. Which would be helpful to make all those connections! I even thought about making myself a map of all the chambers, maybe that would be handy xD
I'm still not finished, but I'm sure today is the day.

[Nirkatze]

I'm definitely looking forward to seeing how things develop in the next book(s), but I'm not rabid to get at them. I'm hoping book 2 is better... I liked the 2nd Book of the Ice better than the first, but haven't picked up #3 yet.

[Laura]

I just grabbed a copy of this one.
Can I join?
I'll try to catch up

[Chris]

Laura wrote: "I just grabbed a copy of this one.
Can I join?
I'll try to catch up"

Of course! Welcome to the discussion. Some of us (me) are moving fairly slowly so wouldn't be hard to catch up

[Tammie]

Laura wrote: "I just grabbed a copy of this one.
Can I join?
I'll try to catch up"

I'm ready this at a snail's pace, so you can certainly join and not feel like you're the only one still reading.

[Nirkatze]

Laura wrote: "I just grabbed a copy of this one.
Can I join?
I'll try to catch up"

I'm still reading new comments!! ^_^ Join us join us!

[Beena]

Ah man, I'm still reading this very slowly as well, as you guys said, it did get a bit interesting at Chapter 23/24, but it's gone back to being a bit meh and a waiting game to see if anything catches my interest again. I dunno, I'm at 43% (can't remember the chapter) and just not feeling it. Bit apprehensive that it's gonna turn out like Red Sister for me again, really was not a fan of that.... :(

[Tammie]

Beena wrote: "Ah man, I'm still reading this very slowly as well, as you guys said, it did get a bit interesting at Chapter 23/24, but it's gone back to being a bit meh and a waiting game to see if anything catc..."

The exact same thing happened for me too. I had to put it aside for a while. I did like Red Sister, but so far I haven't liked anything else I've read by this author.

[Narilka]

I've been on the fence about this book. Can you guys confirm this one is more like The Girl and the Mountain? I think that's the way your nonspoiler comments lean.

[Nirkatze]

That's how it felt for me--more like Girl and the Mountain than Girl and the Stars (book 2 over book 1) at least as the amount of engagement involved, and the.... feel... of the secrets? Not at all like the Red Queen or Broken Empire series, maybe a little like Book of the Ancestor... it definitely feels like a Lawrence book.

[Narilka]

Ok. I think I'll hold off until I can catch it on sale. Thanks Nirkatze.

[Rob]

I finished the other day. A common refrain for all of us seems to be "Sloggy, but had just enough to make me keep going to uncover the twists and turns to make it rewarding" I've only previously read Lawrence's Broken Empire Trilogy and strongly suspect I have skipped over his best work so I'll have to get back to that at some point. I think this one is to put in the "possibly better on the re-read" list.

[Beena]

@Tammie, I feel like if I put it aside now, I'll forget everything then have to start all over again lol, so will try to push through.

His previous work has been a mixed bag for me:

Broken Empire Trilogy: Loved.

Red Queen's War Trilogy: Ok story, rated higher for humour and wit.

Red Sister (Book of the Ancestor Trilogy): Absolute slog, discontinued series.

One Word Kill (Impossible Times Trilogy): Ok story, rated higher for humour and enjoyment of writing, not sure if I'll continue.

Gunlaw (free short story on Wattpad): Loved.

Yet to read The Girl and the Stars, definitely prefer his Grimdark style more.

[MillaTortellini]

I finished today and yep Rob, this refrain is exactly how I felt reading. I also agree that this will probably be better on a re-read and that's what I definetely plan to do before the next book. I'm not even sure if I completely understood the ending.
I only read the ancestor's trilogy before this and there I liked the characters more than in this book. But here the focus was probably more on the setting and the mysteries and twists.

[Narilka]

Yeah, that settles it. This isn't something worth spending full price on. Too bad my library doesn't have the book. Nothing wrong with 3 star books - just my reading time has been lessened lately so I'm being pickier :) Thanks everyone for chiming in!

[Rob]

I 3.0=starred it as well.

[Beena]

FINALLY finished this yesterday, I thought maybe the reveals at the end would make it a bit more interesting but it wasn't to be. It just really wasn't for me, didn't gel with the story at all. And I know most typical fantasy books are iterations of one another, with ideas borrowed/ taken and formed into another idea, but having read Strange the Dreamer earlier in the year and absolutely loving it, this seemed rather similar in the bones of the concept, but just not as good. He's also borrowed a lot of ideas from his other works, and it made it a bit samey to me.

(view spoiler)[I already guessed Yute and Yamala were originally assistants, thought they were brother and sister though, not husband and wife. Didn't forsee that Evar was a Canith(?) and Livira human. Did suss out it was Livira's book that Evar lived. (hide spoiler)]

The romance really didn't work for me either, I wasn't feeling it at all. (view spoiler)[How Livira supposedly falls for Evar after meeting him a handful of time throughout her life, just didn't make sense. I didn't like the bits towards the end where it cut out into one of their "adventures" or whatever that Livira had written for them either, I was so confused after the first time it happened, it didn't make sesne with everything else going on in the story. (hide spoiler)]

Just bummed that I found it pretty meh all round, I've seen loads of people giving it 5 stars and I'm just like ??? Sad times. At least it's over and I gave it a try.

[MillaTortellini]

Beena, I feel everything you said there. I also was reminded of strange the dreamer. And I also didn't like the romance in here (view spoiler)[between Livira and Evar. It was too fast for me. I would have liked it better if it would develope over more than one book. Maybe like the friendship in His dark Materials, which the book reminded me of as well. (hide spoiler)]
I also didn't like the writing style. It didn't felt lyrical for me, rather overly constructed. And I would have liked more school setting.
All in all I also feel disappointed. I had high expectations because of the Ancestors trilogie and because of the high ratings. But as it was mentioned already, I have hopes that this book is much better on a reread, so I didn't give up yet :D Next time I think I'll try audio.

[Charlie]

3 chapters in - (view spoiler)[ Poor Livira! What a horrible, dark start to the book. I Know a lot of fantasy books have tragedy and misery but this is A LOT for an opening chapter. (hide spoiler)]

[Beena]

@Milla, well, glad I'm not the only one!

Re romance (view spoiler)[ agreed, it was waaay too fast, and it didn't feel natural to me at all or like there was even any chemistry there to begin with. (hide spoiler)]

Re writing style, also agreed. I've previously said before that I always enjoy his writing even if I'm not into the story, and it looks like I'm going to have to go back on that here. 100% felt overly constructed too, and dare-I-say-it, but like he's trying too hard.

I've just concluded that I only really love his grimdark stories, his other forays outside of it have not been my jam at all.

Fair enough that you haven't given up, however, this is definitely where I'll be leaving this series.

[Chris]

Welcome, Charlie...:)

I think I got in a chapter this week....

[Tammie]

It wasn't for me either. I ended up not finishing it and I gave it 2 stars.

[Nirkatze]

Yeah... definitely not up to his best work... a bar shy of middle... still hopeful sequel will be better.

[Chris]

Trudging along and haven't touched it in awhile...I think I'm all the way up to 30%

If this was an author I wasn't already a fan of I would have dnf'd it by now

[Nirkatze]

It picks up some... but isn't my favorite of Lawrence's work...

[Beena]

Yeah, I felt the same Chris, I only really forced myself through it because it was Lawrence.

[Charlie]

I'm still only a few chapters in, been prioritising other things over this.

[Siobhan]

I want to read this too but I'm so overbooked! Are a few people still reading?

[Chris]

I haven't given up, just shifted to other reads to get my mojo back...