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China: The good? The bad? The ugly? Take your pick.
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message 1:
by
Scout
(new)
Dec 15, 2022 10:46PM
I'll begin with the bad. Tik Tok, downloaded by millions of Americans, owned by Chinese company ByteDance, gathering personal information from users. Seemingly innocuous, but what are they doing with the info?
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Probably cataloguing using Big Data analysis algorithms. I guess it undergoes some kind of commercial filtering to determine what video or advertisement to pimp to whom. Maybe intelligence has their peek too for whatever much they can procure
Do you guys think China is a threat to Democracy? Do you think China is innocuous, or have they set their sights on global domination?
They vie for supremacy. Maybe a healthy ambition for any competitor. Authoritarian regimes are a threat to democracy and likely they view democracies to them. If the competition is healthy - we might all benefit like we did from space race, which deteriorated since. But if we go down into bloody war - that could be it for all of us.
They vie for manufacturing dominance, because they need to find some way of employing such a large population. I do not believe they are interested in dominating the world militarily, but equally they do not want to be dominated. I do not believe they want a military involvement anywhere - it is bad for business - but i guess we can never exclude the possibility of something going wrong in the Clausewitz sense.
Just a gossip, of course, but maybe a talented person can easily combine foreign affairs with internal ones? https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...
Charman Mao and his radical Comunist Party nearly destroyed China - financially, morally, and physically. Only when leaders took over after Mao's death and restored many basic freedoms and economic opportunities to the masses did China regain and surpass its previous place on the world stage.Unfortunately, the current leadership appears to be gradually heading toward the restrictions placed upon personal freedoms and commercial opportunities that drove China's decline decades ago. Hopefully, they will reverse course before their actions lead to unfortunate consequences both internally and externally..
The reforms of Deng Xiaoping have totally changed China, and by lifting 300 million out of poverty, nothing like Mao can ever return.Xi is in charge because the bulk of the Chinese people like what he is doing, and we find those in the West, who believe if "democracy" find this wrong. Why? If the Chinese people want Xi,. what business is it of us? If you argue that the party, not the Chinese, picked him, ask yourself why the DNC picks candidates? And why whoever wins in the West is nowhere near as relevant as policies must favour the money-men who funded the campaign. In all countries, vested interest tend to be the real rulers. Same in China, except the vested interests are a little different.
How do you know that Chinese people (a bulk - how big is it?) like Xi or what he’s doing and don’t want more rights and freedom? I mean those super competitive elections when Xi competes with Xi are telling, but still …
Except for the Uighurs, Falun Gong practitioners, and all of the other people who disappear when they speak out in public.
Many in the West have become blasé about liberty and democracy, perhaps due to a long period of comfortable living. There is also a sense amongst some that democratic institutions have started to fail them.
As mentioned on another thread, I have a relative in China. On a recent visit to the UK, she told me British people over there seemed happy to trade their 'freedoms' for the safety and high quality of life in China. I'm not so sure the Chinese themselves will continue to feel this way for long.
As China matures as a developed and prosperous nation, but one yet to experience what we've become used to, there will be more vocal calls for a liberal, democratic society.
Perhaps, a few decades from now, we'll see a role reversal, with China championing traditional Western values and the West living under the yolk of totalitarianism?
History shows that no political system, whether democratic or totalitarian, lasts more than a few hundred years. Our few hundred years worth is just about up.
As mentioned on another thread, I have a relative in China. On a recent visit to the UK, she told me British people over there seemed happy to trade their 'freedoms' for the safety and high quality of life in China. I'm not so sure the Chinese themselves will continue to feel this way for long.
As China matures as a developed and prosperous nation, but one yet to experience what we've become used to, there will be more vocal calls for a liberal, democratic society.
Perhaps, a few decades from now, we'll see a role reversal, with China championing traditional Western values and the West living under the yolk of totalitarianism?
History shows that no political system, whether democratic or totalitarian, lasts more than a few hundred years. Our few hundred years worth is just about up.
How long before China does not have enough military age people to man the wall and the factories?
Nik wrote: "How do you know that Chinese people (a bulk - how big is it?) like Xi or what he’s doing and don’t want more rights and freedom? I mean those super competitive elections when Xi competes with Xi ar..."Obviously I do not know the opinions of over a billion people, but my daughter-in-law came from Hunan and I get regular reports of what the family think. What I know of that family, their friends and relations, is they are very grateful for the way China has developed, which got them out of a rather impoverished lifestyle to where they are really more affluent than I am. Tian's mother has come down, with an aunt, to help look after new granddaughter. To summarise, they are very happy about where China is.
Do they completely agree with the government's policies? Of course not. Nor do I agree with our government on many things.
What freedoms are they missing? They can travel here (and bring an extraordinary amount of luggage!) they can move around China freely, they did have restrictions during Covid, but so did we.
They do not have the "freedom"to form an opposition party to oppose government policy. Actually, we don't either. The freedom is there, but how many people in then US really think Trump or Biden are the answer, and how many of them could actually form a new party and surpass one of them? The freedom is there but the mechanism is not.
Ask for the Uighers, it is not that they spoke out against the government. There were some Muslim initiated terrorism incidents from them, but also they absolutely refused to follow Chinese law, specifically the one-child law as an example. No government can tolerate a minority that totally flouts the law. Also, you assert the freedom to oppose. As a general rule Communism has mechanisms to criticise and offer constructive proposals. Do you know of any such proposal that was stamped down on and the proposer punished? Evidence?
Another post where you hint there is no difference btw the US and China, similarly like you don’t see btw US and russia, is because you yourself hasn’t lived in neither of those places. The difference is quite big.For what it’s worth, a friend of mine who lived in Beijing for over a decade ran from it to Australia as soon as the lockdown was lifted
Nik, I never said there was no difference. There are very clear differences. If you are an American, there is no doubt you would prefer to live in America than China. But the issue has nothing to do with what Americans think of China - it is what the Chinese think of China. And yes, some Chinese have left China, including my daughter-in-law. but that doesn't mean they hate China or the Chinese government. For what it is worth, I know a number of Americans who have come to New Zealand to live. Different countries have different advantages, and in some the citizens can move from one to another. The Chinese have the freedom to move.
Pointing this out is not anti-American, or anti-freedom. All I am trying to do is show that for Chinese living in China, most of them are very happy to stay there. They are not living in some sort of tyranny.
J, the military age manpower shortage will be solved by then. Once China is a democracy, it'll have a group of very vocal liberals putting pressure on their government to relax border controls :)
Ian wrote: "....All I am trying to do is show that for Chinese living in China, most of them are very happy to stay there..."For some reason China doesn't make it very high on happiness charts, however they are measured:
https://worldhappiness.report/ed/2023...
China # 64 btw Moldova and Vietnam, not bad
Don't worry, Nik, the Chinese people who registered lack of happiness have had a state visit since then. They are all now officially happy, as will be shown in the next set of figures :)
My parents and sister went on holiday to Cuba a while back, when Castro was alive. When I asked them what it was like, first thing they said was how happy everybody appeared.
Could the level of happiness just be something that's in the national character? I know France has had its troubles recently but I've visited both Paris and London in the last month. The contrast appeared huge to me. Parisiens seemed so much more happy and relaxed.
My parents and sister went on holiday to Cuba a while back, when Castro was alive. When I asked them what it was like, first thing they said was how happy everybody appeared.
Could the level of happiness just be something that's in the national character? I know France has had its troubles recently but I've visited both Paris and London in the last month. The contrast appeared huge to me. Parisiens seemed so much more happy and relaxed.
Character as well as consumption of alcoholic beverages definitely influences whether one is moody or joyful :)
I’m for exchange and mutual learning. They won’t pacify ISIS, but can build bridges (not Crimean) between different but benevolent people.
Ian wrote: "Nik wrote: "How do you know that Chinese people (a bulk - how big is it?) like Xi or what he’s doing and don’t want more rights and freedom? I mean those super competitive elections when Xi compete..."Sure, the CCP are treating the Uighurs as they deserve.
'Tool of genocide': Chinese government is forcibly removing organs from prisoners' bodies
https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinio...
How about Falun Gong and all of the people who just periodically disappear?
As for happiness, how did they really measure it? How many Chinese from the regions were asked, and in what language?All I know is that after my son's wedding, the family took them on a small "explore China" expedition. In towns visited in the evenings people were seemingly happy out in the streets, eating at food outlets, etc. It all looked much the same as anywhere else, except more people.
I think also that different countries have different advantages. Going back to the old USSR I remember a conversation with some Intourist girls. They thought their society was good because it was crime free, at least to the extent that they could walk around at any time through the night in many region and be confident nobody would molest them, mug them, whatever. They had free health, free education. The stores were barren but they did not know what Western stores looked like. They accepted that I could go there but they couldn't go to where I came from was a negative, but again, they knew nowhere was perfect and they accepted what they had.Had I gone to the US I probably would have doubled my income at least. But I am quite happy to be where I am. You can't measure the value of a way of life because there are too many parts of it that do not have direct means of putting numbers on them.
Wonder whether your son visited one of those notorious Chinese sweatshops, while exploring.Since meeting with those intourist girls (frequently working for kgb) is still so memorable, I hope you weren’t recruited a few decades ago, while listening to their stories of happy life 😎 If all were so happy, why didn’t USSR let its citizens to freely travel abroad and those like sportsmen, who were allowed sometimes forgot to return?
Just don't hold up a blank sheet of paper.
Rolla makes some excellent points about the importance of first hand experience and being cautious about believing all we're told.
I've just had a genuine lol moment at the thought of Ian being unwittingly recruited into the KGB, and of the Discover China tour messing up its itinerary. V funny post, Nik :)
I've just had a genuine lol moment at the thought of Ian being unwittingly recruited into the KGB, and of the Discover China tour messing up its itinerary. V funny post, Nik :)
Nik wrote: "Wonder whether your son visited one of those notorious Chinese sweatshops, while exploring.Since meeting with those intourist girls (frequently working for kgb) is still so memorable, I hope you w..."
Sweatshops? Which raises the question, where have you been in China to be so certain they exist? And you probably by clothes made in China. Or even worse, in Bangla Desh. Yes, there is cheap labour there, but it is not forced. They can leave and find another job any time they like. But wait, there ARE no other jobs. Too many people, not enough openings.
Of course some of the Intourist girls were KGB. It did not take long to work out which, and that was useful because it avoided frustration. You could find out clearly what you could do, what you shouldn't, and get some insight into the local population. As an example, in one morning I found out what was wrong with Soviet agriculture, something Gorbachev failed to do after being solely responsible for fixing it over several years.
Ian - the Hawkeye? Wonder how you’d sifted through kgb tainted and those who aren’t :) if it’s not hard to work out they must be very primitive pretenders
It was quite simple really: who had the power to make decisions as to what westerners could do, and who would defer to someone else. It is very difficult to make final decisions along the lines, "You will not go and talk to XXX," without exposing the fact you make decisions that shall be carried out.Of course I could have been wrong. There was still the rival MVD.
Read this and decide what China's global intentions are:https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-c...
And here's something I found interesting after doing some research: According to the U.S. Department of Agriculture's (USDA) latest report on foreign ownership of American land, from 2021, 146 Chinese investors held 383,935 acres—nearly double the 193,700 acres that comprise New York City.
https://www.newsweek.com/china-owns-u...
But guess what? There's no information about China's land ownership after 2021. Why?
Tracking foreign ownership of U.S. farmland is itself a challenge, and the legislation wouldn’t provide funding to address that problem.
Renee Johnson of the nonpartisan Congressional Research Service said the Agriculture Department and the Government Accountability Office have identified shortcomings such as incomplete or inaccurate data, limited owner transparency and identity havens that obscure the true nationality of a buyer.
“In general, USDA has generally lacked the resources and staff to verify, monitor and track some of these transactions,”
https://rollcall.com/2023/03/15/gap-i...
So we have no idea of how much US land China has bought since 2021. It could be enough to worry about, but we don't have numbers because there's no govt funding to find out. It seems to me to be a matter of national security, but this administration shows no concern.
Just food for thought about China's intentions and what we don't know.
That's a pat answer, not a serious response.
Scout wrote: "That's a pat answer, not a serious response."You may think so but if China were really contemplating war, do you really think they would be so reserved in their spending?
Apart from that, I doubt they are thinking about war, but I suppose you can't tell.
Assuming something about other player with a different mentality never gives certainty. Always better to be safe than sorry.Cannot know for sure, but net US defense expenditure might be substantially smaller than the gross one.
At the moment the arguments about various small islands seems on the edge for every incident. Seen footage of near clashes between Philippine coast guard/navy and Chinese coast guard/navy/militiavery easy for one of these to go hot
China wants control of all those Islands for fishing and mineral exploitation regardless of international court rulings that have decided that they are not Chinese territory.
Any comments on what I posted (message 37) about China buying up land in the U.S.? About the fact that we have no statistics on what they've bought since 2021? Do you think that China would be happy if we were buying land in their country? That they wouldn't be keeping a close eye on that, while we're not? The same article I cited showed that China has more combat ships than we do. What do they need to engage with us from that distance? Combat ships. I do think China is a threat to us. While seeming not to, they are becoming stronger, and the cyber-stealing of our technology isn't benign. Patience is their strong point, and stealth.
Scout, foreign investors own a significant amount of UK property/ real estate too.
Most attention focuses on London but my neighbour's dad, who is a buy to let investor (I disagree with buy to let but am too polite to tell him lol) was telling me that Chinese investors are now buying up a lot of property all over the country, at the bottom end of the market too.
Apparently, they don't view the properties themselves (they don't even leave China), they simply hire UK-based agents to do everything for them, and then just coin in the rent.
Bad news for people who aspire to own a home and for the UK as a whole.
Most attention focuses on London but my neighbour's dad, who is a buy to let investor (I disagree with buy to let but am too polite to tell him lol) was telling me that Chinese investors are now buying up a lot of property all over the country, at the bottom end of the market too.
Apparently, they don't view the properties themselves (they don't even leave China), they simply hire UK-based agents to do everything for them, and then just coin in the rent.
Bad news for people who aspire to own a home and for the UK as a whole.
In the long run - Australia and Eastern russia will likely be chinized, much of central Asia and Africa will reorient to become its satellite.
