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Bel-Ami
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Bel Ami - Part 1, Ch 1 - 4
I've got to the end of chapter 1 - in French! Very proud of myself! - and am already feeling that this is going to be a great read. I'll read the questions Deb has posted when I've got to the end of the section to avoid spoilers.One favourite moment so far was Duroy and Forestier lamenting the lack of suitable places in Paris for flâneurs to, well, flâner. I see flâneur has been translated as "idler", but it's somehow more than that; the definition translated from my Petit Robert is "to walk around without haste, with no specific direction while abandoning oneself to the impressions and spectacle of the moment". I think this gives us a good idea of Duroy's priorities in life; he's penniless, but his prime motive for having the odd coin in his pocket seems to be to be able to "flâner", preferably with a lady in tow.
It'll be interesting to see how this friendship with Forestier develops. I'm already doubting whether he will ever pay back the money he lent him for a suit...
I got the free version of Bel-Ami from Amazon. The reviews say it is a condensed version. I am hoping it works for this discussion. I would really like to read this book on my E-reader for extra dictionary and translation help. I would have never read a book like this on my own.
Your condensed version should be fine. I think the only problem will be matching up the sections. Just try not to use spoilers as you post.
Your condensed version should be fine. I think the only problem will be matching up the sections. Just try not to use spoilers as you post.
Mod
I'm jealous Pip. While I have high school French, it is not comprehensive enough (and at this point at least a century ago) to be able to do this.
Mod
Renee, there's also a link for another e-copy from a different source in the reading schedule thread
Deborah wrote: "I'm jealous Pip. While I have high school French, it is not comprehensive enough (and at this point at least a century ago) to be able to do this. "It's actually not a complex read - nothing like, I imagine, a non-native speaker reading Dickens. I'd seriously encourage anyone who has at some point read some literature in French to give it a go. I was very pleasantly surprised at how easily I slipped into it again!
Mod
It's actually not a complex rea..."
If I wasn't moderating I might try it. It's English for me in order to lead discussion.
Deborah wrote: "If I wasn't moderating I might try it. It's English for me in order to lead discussion...."Just for pleasure, you might play with half an hour of the PDF with illustrations Wendel brought to our attention. The text itself was so lovely, I was almost tempted to lay an English text alongside and try to follow a bit of the French. I think if I'd had any training at all in French, I would do so.
Just finished part 1. What first struck me was how obsessed with money Duroy is. He almost feels that he is owed money, that his living conditions are completely inappropriate for him, and that he belongs in the upper regions of society. He is a charming fellow, who uses his good looks to get ahead. I found his inability to write the article hilarious. Yes, we have all been struck with writer's block before, but he sees no harm in getting Mme. Forestier to write the article for him. I found the first chapters amusing, although I don't agree with Duroy's choice of actions.
Mod
Duroy certainly seems to want something for nothing - all should just be given to him as he feels he deserves it. I enjoyed the fear of the blank page. Mme. Forestier writing the article really is a great example of a talented woman who is unable to use her talent due to her sex. It also appears that she's writing some of her husband's articles as well.
Deborah wrote: "Melissa wrote: "Just finished part 1. What first struck me was how obsessed with money Duroy is. He almost feels that he is owed money, that his living conditions are completely inappropriate for h..."Yes I got that as well! I believe she is the reason for his success. After all, she has a wealthy "benefactor" who has provided her with a substantial dowry and she writes the majority of her husbands articles. Forestier gives her no credit, which to us modern women is almost appalling. It's a game between the sexes.
What does Bel-Ami translate into English? I did some research and found 3 different answers. One said boy friend. Another said roughly translates into scoundrel and the last answer said it has no translation. When I read Bel-Ami I feel like I am reading a book by F Scott Fitzgerald. The characters are the same, all they think about is status and that they are owed something but never work hard to earn it.
I have only rudimentary French to apply, but I would guess it to be something like "beautiful friend," so "boyfriend" seems the likelier translation of the term. I'm struck by how much Georges reminds me of Cheri. Well, a Cheri without means. Perhaps the Cheri of The Last of Cheri. I have to wonder if there was a trend among young frenchmen toward certain behaviors and attitudes.
Mod
I found the incident at the party between Duroy and the child (I cannot recall her name off the top of my head)to be somewhat creepy. I do not think we are given any indication of how old she was supposed to be. But Duray's interactions with her, particularly when he placed her upon his knee and kissed her on the lips seemed a bit disturbing to me. And than I think her mother said something about the fact that she usually only lets women caress her.
The child's name is Laurine. Laurine is the one that came up with the name Bel-Ami. I found Duroy's relationships with women confusing. Does he really love Clotilde de Marelle or is she just a conquest of a married woman?
Cindy wrote: "The child's name is Laurine. Laurine is the one that came up with the name Bel-Ami. I found Duroy's relationships with women confusing. Does he really love Clotilde de Marelle or is she just a con..."He also seems to have a certain attraction to Madame Forestier. I am wondering how that will play out later in the book considering how Forestier helped him out in getting him the job and then boroughs Duray and his together when Forestier told Duray to requst Madam Forestier's help for his first article.
Mod
I, too, found a conversation about adultery and blackmail to be very strange in front of a child.
Deborah wrote: "5. How difficult or easy would it be to be a journalist in this story?."I think that is actually rather complicated as it does seem there are many different aspects and levels to it. There are some things of which appear to make it look relatively easy, but others which are quite challenging.
On the one hand Duroy gets hired on the spot without needing any prior experience but it is because of the influence of Forestier. Without Forestier they probably would not give him the time of day.
And after getting hired Duroy begins to discover the difficulties of being a journalists as he struggles with the writing of his own articles. It is also seems to be a very dog eat dog, every man for himself like atmosphere as after being hired it seems Duory is given very little guidance as to what to do. Even is so called friend Forestier becomes dismissive of him.
Yet there are also the examples of Saint-Potin who doesn't even bother conducting the interviews but simply copies old ones and changes the names and dates. While perhaps ethically questionable, it exhibits that when one does know the ropes well they can easily cut corners to avoid actually having to do much work.
To me, everything seems to be based on lies. And the people who can tell the best lies are the ones who profit the most. Deborah asked a question about hands, which I found interesting. The state of each individual's hand seems to correspond to their station in life and their true attitude. Rival's hand is warm and dry, he is a self-assured man, one who is certain of his status in life and has no fear. de Varenne's hand is damp and cold and slides away from Duroy's hand. He seems shifty and untrustworthy, a man not to cross. Walter's hand is cold and flabby, without energy or character. He is old and married to a much younger, colder woman. He has given up on life, refuses to fight. Forestier's is plump and warm. A well-to-do man, without a care in the world, who partakes in the finer things in life. Hands definitely can tell a lot about a person and their social status/inner self.
Mod
Nicely put.
You could fast forward this book to today. I wonder how easy it is to be a journalist in any time, especially now when getting the first story and ratings seem to be top priorities. You watch the news, read a newspaper article and you assume it is accurate. The incident with Saint-Potin got me thinking what it might be like in the back rooms of news rooms.
Dagny wrote: "There are two different translations at Project Gutenberg which are free and available in numerous formats."Interesting that one translates the sub-title as "The History of a Scoundrel" and the other translates it as "(A Ladies Man)." I wonder what the original French is closest to.
Dagny wrote: "There are two different translations at Project Gutenberg which are free and available in numerous formats. You might compare them with your condensed version and see which you like.Bel-Ami at http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/3733
and included in the volume at http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/33928 "
Of these two, the first appears from the opening lines to be a condensed version. Here are the two opening sections:
From
http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/3733
After changing his five-franc piece Georges Duroy left the restaurant. He twisted his mustache in military style and cast a rapid, sweeping glance upon the diners, among whom were three saleswomen, an untidy music-teacher of uncertain age, and two women with their husbands.
When he reached the sidewalk, he paused to consider what route he should take. It was the twenty-eighth of June and he had only three francs in his pocket to last him the remainder of the month. That meant two dinners and no lunches, or two lunches and no dinners, according to choice.
From
http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/33928
When the cashier had given him the change out of his five francpiece, George Duroy left the restaurant.
As he had a good carriage, both naturally and from his military training, he drew himself up, twirled his moustache, and threw upon the lingering customers a rapid and sweeping glance—one of those glances which take in everything within their range like a casting net.
The women looked up at him in turn—three little work-girls, a middle-aged music mistress, disheveled, untidy, and wearing a bonnet always dusty and a dress always awry; and two shopkeepers' wives dining with their husbands—all regular customers at this slap-bang establishment.
When he was on the pavement outside, he stood still for a moment, asking himself what he should do. It was the 28th of June, and he had just three francs forty centimes in his pocket to carry him to the end of the month. This meant the option of two dinners without lunch or two lunches without dinner.
Given that the book seems to deal fairly significantly with his relationships with women (I have read ahead a few chapters, but won't say any more than that here), the second translation seems to be better than the first, in that in the first we just have him giving a sweeping glance at the women, whereas in the second not only does he glance at the women, but they look up at him in turn. Also, the first omits the mention of his good carriage, both naturally and from his military training.
Also, as to the bachelor question which was raised in the reading schedule thread, the first has the incorrect "are you a bachelor," and the second "do you have a bachelor's degree?"
I had downloaded the first and read the first few chapters in it, but I'm going to go back now and download the second, thinking it is probably more complete and richer as well, given the bachelor reading, probably a more accurate translation (I've been finding the first chapters very weak and watery, but now I wonder whether that is more a matter of the translation than of the text itself.)
So, I do recommend that those who are reading a version online go and get the free Gutenberg translation at
http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/33928
There are versions to read online and versions to download for almost any e-reader.
Mod
..."
Thanks Everyman. I'm finding the chapters weak as well, and I'm reading an actual book
Melissa wrote: "I found his inability to write the article hilarious."We read Gissing's New Grub Street a bit over a year ago, and I was struck with the comparison between Gissing's and de Maupassant's characters and their ease or lack of it over writing for newspapers or magazines.
Silver wrote: "I found the incident at the party between Duroy and the child (I cannot recall her name off the top of my head)to be somewhat creepy [...] Duray's interactions with her, particularly when he placed her upon his knee and kissed her on the lips seemed a bit disturbing to me. And than I think her mother said something about the fact that she usually only lets women caress her."I was prepared to be creeped out, but then it wasn't so bad... I think this is another bad translation:
Duroy, s’asseyant aussitôt, prit sur son genou Laurine, puis ~effleura des lèvres les cheveux ondés et fins~ de l’enfant. La mère s’étonna : « Tiens, elle ne s’est pas sauvée ; c’est stupéfiant. Elle ne se laisse d’ordinaire embrasser que par les femmes… »
Seating himself, Duroy sat Laurine on his knee. He ~lightly pressed his lips against her lovely wavy hair.~ Her mother exclaimed, “Look at that, she didn’t run off! Usually she only allows women to kiss her."
Seating himself, Duroy took Laurine upon his knee, and ~kissed her lips and her fine wavy hair.~ Her mother was surprised: "Well, that is strange! Ordinarily she only allows ladies to caress her.” (Free Ebook version)
I was relieved (when he only kissed her hair), but then he started bouncing her on his leg.
Silver wrote: "I found the incident at the party between Duroy and the child (I cannot recall her name off the top of my head)to be somewhat creepy. "I agree with this. I wonder whether it was intended to show that Duroy exudes an almost magnetic attraction to females.
Like Cindy, I also found Duroy's relationships with women confusing, and wondered whether his attraction to Clotilde de Marelle was love (does he yet know her well enough for it to be more than mere sexual attraction or, as Cindy suggests, just a conquest of a married woman)? And then Silver comments on his "certain attraction to Madame Forestier."
In just a few chapters, three women of very different ages and relationships all seem to be finding him interesting and, it would appear, somehow appealing. The subtitle "A Ladies Man" seems to be be already well on point, one wonders whether the alternate translation of the subtitle, "The History of a Scoundrel" will be equally justified.
Bonnie wrote: "Silver wrote: "I found the incident at the party between Duroy and the child (I cannot recall her name off the top of my head)to be somewhat creepy [...] Duray's interactions with her, particularly..."The first translation is certainly less disturbing and more innocuous sounding than the second, which is the one which I have.
Though the whole scene made me think a bit of when I read Twenty Years After the second book in the Three Musketeers series. Athos' son Raul (who was a young man) was in love with a girl that was like 6 or 8 years old. Everyone made fun of him for it, but they all acted like it was perfectly normal.
It made me wonder if in fact there is some sort of cultural difference here.
I'm not re-reading the book (at least yet), but am enjoying following all the comments. What I remember of the book, yes, most certainly the story of a rogue.
Everyman wrote: "Melissa wrote: "I found his inability to write the article hilarious."We read Gissing's New Grub Street a bit over a year ago, and I was struck with the comparison between Gissing's and de Maupas..."
I've been making nearly constant comparisons between DuRoy and Milvain as I read. Both writers. Both unscrulpous. Both ambitious. Both have an eye for the ladies... And what they can provide.
So far no one seems troubled by the fact that Mdme. Forestier is doing all the writing while the gentlemen get the jobs/credit/money/reputation.
Renee wrote: "So far no one seems troubled by the fact that Mdme. Forestier is doing all the writing while the gentlemen get the jobs/credit/money/reputation."
I saw Mdme. Forestier as working in a sort of partnership with her husband. Of course at that time she would not have been permitted to get a job as a journalist and it is unlikely that anything written under her name would in fact have been published.
I do believe there had been instances before of women around this time period (and at earlier times) using their husbands as a front to allow them to be published knowing that as a woman they would be unable to do so.
Though Forestier may just be taking advantage of his wife. Particularly in the case of Duroy whom he sends to his wife to write his article for him. But in that case she was serving as a ghostwriter basically, helping to organize and put down Duray's thoughts. And Ghostwriters typically don't actually get credit for their work, but it is perhaps unjust that it was the natural presumption that Duroy would still reap the fill benefit of the profit from the work without thinking that she actually deserved any of it for her own time and effort.
Silver wrote: "Renee wrote: "So far no one seems troubled by the fact that Mdme. Forestier is doing all the writing while the gentlemen get the jobs/credit/money/reputation."
I saw Mdme. Forestier as working in..."
I agree that Mdme. Forestier has no alternative to write herself and must filter her talents through her husband or some other male personage. One of the reasons marriage was so essential to a woman of that time. Helping Duroy helps her husband and thus herself.
That Duroy could be accepted as a journalist, without any experience and no exceptional talent for the job, might speak volumes about the veracity of journalism at the time. (Sometimes I wonder how much progress we have made).
Sara wrote: "That Duroy could be accepted as a journalist, without any experience and no exceptional talent for the job, might speak volumes about the veracity of journalism at the time. (Sometimes I wonder how much progress we have made). "That's a very interesting point Sara - we have to remember that at the time, the printed word was suddenly much more available and much cheaper - and literacy rates were higher - than ever before. The explosion in demand for print and the ease of publishing it would perhaps have been similar to what we are experiencing today - a time in which anyone can publish (in blogs for example) and anyone can read them at little or no cost. No experience or talent required!
I switched translations and it is like reading a different story. I didn't realize how much was left out of the free Amazon. I was confused on how the prostitute fit into the story. I did not know that he desired to have one and took her home. That was totally left out of the free Amazon.
I just finished the first four chapters, and then downloaded the illustrated PDF. It was fun to see the illustrations. He definitely seems to have a pretty fancy mustache. The one of him with the little girl at the dinner party shows him kissing her hair, which is the same as my translation. A little less creepy than a kiss on the lips, I guess!I did find it interesting that Forestier's wife is helping everyone with their writing, but I'm sure that went on a lot back then, and probably still now in some circumstances. It reminded me of that movie Big Eyes about the husband taking credit for his wife's paintings
It's hard to see journalism as a very serious or skilled job as it's portrayed in the book, when no one seems to be questioning the truth of any of the writing. As long as you could write something coherently, it seemed to get published right away.
Cindy wrote: "I switched translations and it is like reading a different story. I didn't realize how much was left out of the free Amazon. I was confused on how the prostitute fit into the story. I did not know that he desired to have one and took her home. That was totally left out..."I'm putting this here to encourage folks to get a better translation than the free condensed one. A comparison from chapter 1:
Penguin/Parmee translation:
When he had reached the boulevard he stopped once again, undecided what to do. He now felt tempted to walk on up to the Champs-Elysées and the Avenue du Bois de Boulogne and find a breath of fresh air under the trees, but he was tormented by another desire, an urge to meet a woman.
What would she be like? He had no idea but he had been waiting for her day and night for the last three months. And sometimes, thanks to his good looks and raffish air, he had managed to steal a few moments of love here and there. But he was still hoping for something more than that, something better.
He could feel his heart beating faster with lust as the street-walkers sidled up to him whispering: 'Coming upstairs, handsome?'; but his pockets were empty and without money he dared not follow them; and he was waiting, too, for something different, less vulgar, a different kind of kiss.
Yet he was fond of places where whores congregated, he liked their dance-halls, their cafés and their streets; he liked rubbing shoulders with them, talking and chatting familiarly with them, inhaling their cheap pungent perfumes, feeling them all around him. For they were women, women for loving. He did not feel for them any of the instinctive contempt of a family man. He turned his steps toward the Madeleine and followed the crowd as it drifted along, prostrate with heat.
Condensed version:
When Georges Duroy reached the boulevard he halted again, undecided as to which road to choose. Finally he turned toward the Madeleine and followed the tide of people.
Whahaha! That's just painful!
Bonnie wrote: "Cindy wrote: "I switched translations and it is like reading a different story. I didn't realize how much was left out of the free Amazon. I was confused on how the prostitute fit into the story. ..."So we are not only missing the content of the novel but the voice of the author. I was frankly wondering where the du Maupassant of the "The Necklace" had gotten to. Now I think I might know. Thanks for this enlightenment.
Due to the discussions about the translations I will wait with my first post until I have received the Penguin edition I ordered. I have read the first 4 chapters on ibooks, but understand now why I was a little disappointed with the writing. So as soon as I have my hard copy I will reread these chapters and post then.BTW, I have seen the movie of 2012 with Robert Pattinson, Uma Thurman, Kristin Scott Thomas and Christina Ricci. So I should be careful making posts anyway as I do know how it all ends.
I read some of the first chapters now in the (original) French edition too and I really like the way Maupassant describes all the situations. You get a good feeling why Duroy makes his decisions. And you really feel that he wants to prove himself, but as soon as he achieves something he just gets very braggy (and annoying). So I don't see why should be known as "Bel-Ami", but I guess that we will find out more about that in the coming chapters. So I'm really looking forward to this main plot.
Mod
In answer to question 4, I think Forrestier is being somewhat disingenuous about ladies as the "quickest way to success" given that his own wife both provided the money on which he lives (from her aristocratic lover) and writes his articles for him (by which he maintains his position at the newspaper). This seems to have been a stroke of great good fortune for him and for his career. While Duroy dreams of marrying an heiress, I would imagine this would be much harder to accomplish than it appears.
Thanks for the tip about the movie-I will look for it when I've finished the book.
Bonnie wrote: "Cindy wrote: "I switched translations and it is like reading a different story. I didn't realize how much was left out of the free Amazon. I was confused on how the prostitute fit into the story. ..."And here is the same passage from the version also free from Gutenberg, but the version from Volume 6 of the Works of de Maupassant. Much more complete than the condensed version. I agree that anybody reading the free Amazon version (or the equivalent from elsewhere) should strongly consider going to this free Gutenberg edition, which is at
http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/33928
and available for reading on the computer, or on almost any e-reader including Kindle and Nook.
When George Duroy reached the boulevards he paused again, undecided as to what he should do. He now thought of going on to the Champs Elysées and the Avenue du Bois de Boulogne to seek a little fresh air under the trees, but another wish also assailed him, a desire for a love affair.
What shape would it take? He did not know, but he had been awaiting it for three months, night and day. Occasionally, thanks to his good looks and gallant bearing, he gleaned a few crumbs of love here and there, but he was always hoping for something further and better.
With empty pockets and hot blood, he kindled at the contact of the prowlers who murmur at street corners: "Will you come home with me, dear?" but he dared not follow them, not being able to pay them, and, besides, he was awaiting something else, less venally vulgar kisses.
He liked, however, the localities in which women of the town swarm—their balls, their cafés, and their streets. He liked to rub shoulders with them, speak to them, chaff them, inhale their strong perfumes, feel himself near them. They were women at any rate, women made for love. He did not despise them with the innate contempt of a well-born man.
He turned towards the Madeleine, following the flux of the crowd which flowed along overcome by the heat.
Everyman wrote: "Bonnie wrote: "Cindy wrote: "I switched translations and it is like reading a different story. I didn't realize how much was left out of the free Amazon. I was confused on how the prostitute fit i..."This is the same translation (by Ernest Boyd) that I am using. I wasn't sure how good it'd be at first, but I like it very much now. It is so sad, however, how translation can mess with an author's words and intentions. I wish I could read the original, but my French is still a little to elementary. Hopefully in a year or two, I will be able to read French authors in their own language!
Dagny wrote: "Cindy wrote: "I got the free version of Bel-Ami from Amazon. The reviews say it is a condensed version. I am hoping it works for this discussion. I would really like to read this book on my E-r..."I had started with this version: http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/3733. I didn't realize it was condensed at first because the edition says nothing about it. Based on the comments here, though, I just switched to http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/33928. If anyone else is reading that shortened version, I agree with the others and highly recommend you switch. Not only is all the subtlety lost, but all the descriptions of places and people are pretty much just left out. It's basically just a summary of what's going on. I'm now going back and rereading this longer version, and its sooo much better. Thanks for pointing this out, everyone!
Mod
Wow. And the abridged version left out some major plot points. I'm reading a completely different book now!
Our story opens in Paris with Duroy short of funds. He meets Forestier, an old military friend, who apparently has a good life, but poor health. Suggestions are made by Forestier to help Duroy become more financially solvent. Du Maupassant also captures the fear or intimidation a writer faces when he/she meets with the blank page.
Some questions to get us thinking. Remember our discussion is not limited to these questions. In fact, you don't need to answer them if you prefer to discuss something else.
1. Describe your view of the morality of the characters. How does this affect their lives?
2.There is a description of the hands at the dinner party (Chapter 2). How do the descriptions relate to the characters?
3. What is your reaction to Forestier telling Duroy (Chapter 2) "all men are stupid oafs and ignorant nincompoops?"
4. What does Forestier mean when he tells Duroy (Chapter 2) ladies "are the quickest way to success"? How is this power of women shown?
5. How difficult or easy would it be to be a journalist in this story?
And we are off to a great discussion.