The Mookse and the Gripes discussion
Booker Prize for Fiction
>
2022 Booker Shortlist Discussion
David I do see some themes They lost the two false narrator novels
They lost all 3 of the debut novelists
They kept the older authors - Garner (88), Strout (66), Everett (65) would all be considered old age pensioners in the UK
They kept the three satirical books looking at historical genocides
They picked the two novellas
Interestingly for me I have read four of the shortlist twice already.
Gumble's Yard - Golden Reviewer wrote: "They kept the older authors - Garner (88), Strout (66), Everett (65) would all be considered old age pensioners in the UK."Everett would not be eligible for his state pension until December. It's 66 now.
Vesna wrote: "I never understood why The Colony was resented by some readers as having too much hype about it. There was no establishment hype, only the enthusiastic responses from the readers who connected with..."Yes, fair enough. I think in my case it was a book I suspected I didn't want to read but everyone was so glowing so I bought it and realized I should have trusted my instincts. In the meantime all the "meh" reviews that might have tipped me off came in.
Interesting that you think it was promoted differently to Small Things Like These as they were both published by Faber. I wonder why that is?
Vesna wrote: "I never understood why The Colony was resented by some readers as having too much hype about it. There was no establishment hype, only the enthusiastic responses from the readers who connected with..."Well I think only that it was so loved here pre longlist, it was inevitable - but also very healthy - to get people pointing out the flaws. And of course some would have not read precisely as it didn't appeal and then only done so as on the Booker (in same way I can tell Oh William! is not a book I will like).
Worth remembering The Colony topped our aggregated prediction list to appear on the longlist (with Young mungo 2nd and Maps and Glory joint third).
Gumble's Yard - Golden Reviewer wrote: "They picked the two novellas"You mean they picked the two best edited novels as we are now all obliged to say.
I quite like that as a replacement for the 'novella' term which has always felt pejorative.
Re-watching the delightful video, reading the comments and still baffled. Didn't seem to be a lot of appreciation for ambitious novels this year, with the exception of Glory and Moons - praying one of these will win.
You re-watched the video??? Once was painful enough.Shame their views on editing didn't extend to prize ceremonies!
David wrote: "The shortlist feels like they threw darts at the wall."Blindfolded!
Mixed bag of a shortlist for me, considering that both my favourite and least favourite books this year made the shortlist. Shortlisting Oh William! over books like The Colony and Maps of Our Spectacular Bodies feels like such a wrong choice.I'm definitely Team Everett!
I thought it was worth sharing MacGregor's comments from the Booker website:‘These six books, we believe, speak powerfully about important things. Set in different places at different times, they are all about events that in some measure happen everywhere, and concern us all. Each written in English, they demonstrate what an abundance of Englishes there are, and how many distinct worlds, real and imaginary, exist in that simple-seeming space, the Anglosphere.
‘Two — Oh William! and Treacle Walker — are about the inner life, as a young boy and a middle-aged woman, in their particular ways, come to a new understanding of who they are and what they might become. The other four books address long national histories of cruelty and injustice, in Sri Lanka and Ireland, Zimbabwe and the United States, and in each case the enduring historical tensions provide the dilemmas in which the characters, like their societies, are put on the rack.
‘Why did we choose these six? In every one, the author uses language not only to tell us what happens, but to create a world which we, outsiders, can enter and inhabit — and not merely by using words from local languages or dialects. NoViolet Bulawayo’s incantatory repetitions induct us all into a Zimbabwean community of memory and expectation, just as Alan Garner’s shamanic obliquities conjure a realm that reason alone could never access. Percival Everett and Shehan Karunatilaka spin fantastical verbal webs of Gothic horror — and humour — that could not be further removed from the hypnotic, hallucinatory clarity of Claire Keegan’s and Elizabeth Strout’s pared-down prose. Most important, all affirm the importance and the power of finding and sharing the truth.’
No book is going to be universally loved or even close to it but not just in this group but wider on Goodreads and even in Bookstagram Booker followers (a surprisingly large community I have discovered) Maps and to an even greater extent The Colony we’re getting a lot of love and tips pre and post the longlist announcement. I even had a Costa judge and Front Row Booker Club producer who is away currently contact me this evening asking if the rumours she had heard about them both being omitted could possibly be true.
But I still think this is much less of a “night of the long knives” than 2017 and at least Maps already has a prestigious prize win (and if my lobbying works might even have a Goldsmiths chance!)
I am going to predict now though that The Colony will win next year’s Dublin Literary award
I'm not disappointed, even though I thought Maps and Colony would be on it. It was a very good longlist and the books on the shortlist are well written. I can see reasons for picking each of them as the overall winner. I will ponder on them a bit before predicting the winner.
Paul wrote: "You re-watched the video??? Once was painful enough.Funny, Paul. I actually very much enjoyed it. I know you must be thrilled - all those skinny books shortlisted.
LindaJ I think you summarise my thoughts nicely.
Disappointed about "Maps". But happy about "Treacle Walker" and "Small Things".
Thanks for posting MacGregor’s comments, Cindy, it explained why they selected only 2 of the books I thought should be shortlisted. I’m not particularly happy with these choices, but I’ve read them all, only half of Glory, but I didn’t care enough to finish it. So my first choice to win will be The Seven Moons, but I’d be happy for Treacle Walker too since it is so beloved by some of us.
endrju wrote: "It's either The Trees or The Seven Moons for me and I honestly can't decide. I'll finally read Glory as I was waiting to see if it'll get this far."For me as well (although I haven't read Seven Moons yet...it just seems perfectly up my alley.) They're the only books on the shortlist I'm excited about. I DNF'd Glory, and just shrugged at Oh William! and Small Things. What a strange, semi-boring list.
Macgregor’s words make senseAlthough I am never sure if juries set criteria and choose a list, or choose a list then find a retrospective coherent rationale for it - and I suspect the latter.
And a book about long national histories of injustice in Ireland. If only there had been a book on the list that somehow dealt with the troubled history of Ireland as an English colony. But given their clearly wasn’t then I guess a book that apparently actually isn’t about the Magdalene (*) nurseries will fit instead.
(* is it just me who can’t help but pronounce that as Maudlin).
Overall, a general partiality for seasoned authors. As for the books, a diplomatic division of ambitious works and minimalists.
I think it’s Magdalene laundries Paul
Interesting that maudlin is a derivation of Magdalene.
I did not know that but of course now realise it explains the pronunciation of the colleges.
Scott wrote: "Overall, a general partiality for seasoned authors. As for the books, a diplomatic division of ambitious works and minimalists."I think fair enough for seasoned authors. The debut author will have a chance later - or not, as in the case of both NZ writers who won the Booker. Neither of them has written anything else. Pity.
Paul, I will root for Treacle Walker with you.There are more than two books on the short list that I didn't like at all but not as much as I didn't like the ones that didn't make the short list. (This is my bookish version of Bilbo Baggins saying: "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.")
I'm glad The Trees made it but I'll be all right with it not winning. I wouldn't say the word "gimmick" attaches itself easily to this book, but whatever the word is for "gimmick" that isn't perjorative, yes, that's what it is. It got a big 5 stars from me, but I still would hesitate to claim it's the best book written in the Booker 2022 time/universe.
Cordelia wrote: "Scott wrote: "Overall, a general partiality for seasoned authors. As for the books, a diplomatic division of ambitious works and minimalists."I think fair enough for seasoned authors. The debut a..."
Eleanor Catton's new book, Birnam Wood, is due out in March.
Scott wrote: "Cordelia wrote: "Scott wrote: "Overall, a general partiality for seasoned authors. As for the books, a diplomatic division of ambitious works and minimalists."I think fair enough for seasoned aut..."
I will look forward to that
Another very strong linking theme is that the books all revisit events (national or personal) of the second half of the 20th century - four the 1980s and three the 1940-50s Seven Moons - set in 1989
Things Like These - set in 1985
Glory - looks back on 1983/4 Gukuruhundi massacres
Oh William - explores Lucy and William’s marriage which (if my maths is correct) happened in the mid 80s and the fallout of another marriage in the 1940s
Treacle Walker - revisits a 1940s childhood
The Trees - revisits the murder of Emmett Till in 1955
I don't see why this shortlist is disappointing. Of course, that's easy for me to say as my two favourites made it. But I figured that only one of the two Irish atrocities books could make it, and have seen a lot of love here for Seven Moons and But_i_thought's really positive take on Glory, so they seem worthy. Oh William is a bit random, but there's always at least one random!
I found this interesting from the Bookseller (it may have been in the event yesterday as I did not listen to it). Does sound like these are publisher call ins though rather than when the judges call in a book which the publishers have not even mentioned.From the article …
Wood and the panel were also quizzed on whether any of the shortlisted books had been “called in”, whereby a publisher may provide a list of up to five titles for consideration, in addition to the main submission(s), accompanied by a justification from the editor. Wood revealed Garner’s book had been called in this year. She added: “In the past, in recent years, up to a third of the shortlist has been called in so it does actually tell you something about how the judges make their own decisions and it’s not always what the publishers think.”
That’s interesting. And I didn’t hear it at the live event - as sounds this was more a QnA afterwards. (Or perhaps the broadcast carried on as I rather lost the will to live listening to it).
I posted the text to individual book threads but there is some detailed judge Q&A on each book herehttps://thebookerprizes.com/the-booke...
Based on this I think Garner might be getting a birthday present although Trees also seems to get strong comments
Each of those brief essays on why we should read the shortlist made me glad that I read each of the books on the shortlist.Now it’s time to take this year’s Booker books from my library cart by my chair and shelve them and I will not be doing that with my dear husband at home, knowing he is watching me try to figure out where to fit them in and wanting to suggest getting rid of some of my books. I really do need to do another purge, but that will not happen today so I’ll find room for them all when he’s not home, judging me… :)
I saw a video clip of Gaby Wood at the shortlist ceremony mention the Scunthorpe Page Turners book club, then say, “…and I gather you have a steelworker and a dinner lady amongst your midst,” then laugh. Wood is getting pilloried on Twitter for being condescending and classist. It is appalling. What is funny about a steelworker and a dinner lady, whatever that is, reading?
From urban dictionary, a dinner lady is:A woman who looks very plain, and working class and works or has worked in a school, serving children meals.
WndyJW wrote: "I saw a video clip of Gaby Wood at the shortlist ceremony mention the Scunthorpe Page Turners book club, then say, “…and I gather you have a steelworker and a dinner lady amongst your midst,” then ..."Yes, one of those telling little moments.
Scunthorpe has an interesting history, though. There is a wikipedia entry for "Scunthorpe problem":https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scuntho...
I see that each of the six book clubs has been assigned a book to discuss. It probably wasn't a selling point for us that we've already read and discussed them all!
It was a not selling point for us that we are not in the uk.
The Scunthorpe problem is hilarious.I’m stunned anyone used to speaking publicly could make such a demeaning comment.
The Booker defended Woods saying that, “the book clubs…were congratulated in their presence. To give an impression of the groups, reference was made to locations and occupations of the participants.” Wood said, “…And I understand you have a dinner lady and a steel worker amongst you this evening…and a husband?! Much rarer!” I’m still not sure why that was funny.
That’s awful Wendy - I suspect there will be some repercussions here not least as it seems to reinforce a view of an industry with a strong class bias (and class prejudice is still a very big and real thing in the UK) Oddly though (and this is not a joke) Phoebe Walker Bridge is being mistakenly blamed by some people on Twitter.
Having said that the book group described itself on the Booker website (based I assume in their application) as an “eclectic’ mix of individuals, including a civil servant, a steel worker, a shop worker, a dinner lady and two retirees” so to be honest they were possibly playing a class mix card themselves
I think then we need to give Gaby Woods the benefit of the doubt. Cancel Culture is harsh here, I’m guessing it is in the UK as well. I saw the clip and Gaby Wood looks like Phoebe Walker Bridge. I only knew it was Gaby Wood because the Twitter post identified her.
I also assumed she was drawing from the group's self-description.
Seems out of context - she was smiling and laughing with each group, in part as I don’t think she had been told they were actually there (she was a bit taken aback when the first group announced cheered). And as GY said they are the ones that played the steel worker and dinner lady card to get picked.
WndyJW wrote: "And I understand you have a dinner lady and a steel worker amongst you this evening…and a husband?! Much rarer!” I’m still not sure why that was funny."I think there's the stereotype that husbands don't join book clubs, much less read. Obviously, not the case here on GR, especially in this group, but I've been to at least one dinner party where none of the husbands claimed to read fiction. And it was a lame-ass dinner party, but I'm usually more interested in the bookshelves, the pets, and the children than I am in the other husbands...
I'm not sure I understand the outrage. Is it because she was surprised men read fiction? A bit odd considering 3 out of 5 judges are men.
The Mookse and the Gripes
Books mentioned in this topic
Girl, Woman, Other (other topics)Glory (other topics)
The Trees (other topics)
Small Things Like These (other topics)
Oh William! (other topics)
More...
Authors mentioned in this topic
NoViolet Bulawayo (other topics)Percival Everett (other topics)
Alan Garner (other topics)
Shehan Karunatilaka (other topics)
Claire Keegan (other topics)
More...
I agree the shortlist doesn't feel cohesive. Almost as if each judge got to advance a book based on their personal tastes, and left the last slot to votes. If we could match books to judges, which ones would we match? Example:
- Neil MacGregor: Treacle Walker (based on his comments about the surface level story versus the actual story)
- Alain Mabanckou: Glory (based on his comments about advancing and promoting African fiction)
Others?