Dragonriders of Pern - Fall 2022 Challenge

[Kalin]

I'm over halfway through Dragonflight, which I'm enjoying well enough, though yeah that relationship is very cringe. I thought the first part, Weyr Search, was much clearer in its writing than the second.

[Kateblue, 2nd star to the right and straight on til morning]

I cannot find the %^&@$% Kindle that had All the Weyrs of Pern on it. It'll show up, everntually!

[Kalin]

So I finished Dragonflight late last night. I may catch up with you all and read both Dragonquest and The White Dragon in December, but more likely I'll only get the second one done by the end of the year.

On genre: the only thing I knew about these books before starting Dragonflight was that Anne McCaffrey hated being labelled as a fantasy writer and considered the Pern books science fiction. Part of me wonders if that's just because sci fi has historically been treated as "worthier" than fantasy, but there are definite elements of sci fi in these books. However, I felt like in the interplay between F&SF elements, she draws way more on fantasy tropes and traditions: the medieval social system, the technology level, the, um, dragons. I'm probably going to call it science fantasy going forward.

On gender: I was doing a little biographical reading on McCaffrey the other day and came across a description of her early writing as being angrily pushing back against the poor depictions of women in 50s and 60s SF. I can see that in creating a "strong female character" in Lessa, and in writing a story (obliquely) targeted at younger girl readers, McCaffrey may have been trying to push gender boundaries in some ways. But as for the rest, the gender politics of this book have aged so poorly. Others have already mentioned the relationship between Lessa and F'lar. But let's talk about Kylara for a minute. She is a character who, for the entire book, does not have a single spoken line, but takes up a large amount of space in the narrative as the village slut. Just -- what -- why? I don't know why McCaffrey felt it so important to dwell on this so heavily. But Kylara is the picture perfect definition of a two-dimensional character.

Also, by the end of the book, I was almost laughing and definitely rolling my eyes at how often and how vigorously F'lar would shake the bejesus out of Lessa. SHAKE HER SILLY F'LAR. THIS IS NORMAL.

On age: This book was released long before "YA" became a distinctive marketing genre post-Harry Potter. But as Rebecca mentioned above, I think this book likely qualifies as YA in terms of the way it is written, the way characters relate to each other and make weird decisions. Still, this book was published concurrently with A Wizard of Earthsea, another proto-YA book with very different quality of relationship -- both internal as well as interpersonal. I think Dragonflight is just not that good a book, 3 stars for me at most, but maybe more like 2.5.

[Kalin]

Rebecca wrote: "I have lots of thoughts on the second book but not sure if we are talking about that one here?"

I think we are -- the group didn't end up creating discrete discussion topics for each novel in the series for this challenge. Unless you would like to request a separate thread for Dragonquest, in which case I can get on that. :)

[Oleksandr, a.k.a. Acorn]

Kalin wrote: "I felt like in the interplay between F&SF elements, she draws way more on fantasy tropes and traditions: the medieval social system, the technology level, the, um, dragons. I'm probably going to call it science fantasy going forward."

I guess it is perfectly fine for people to have their own definitions, but for me fantasy is defined by magic, so science fantasy are works like The Fifth Season, while this for me was SF in a medieval tech / society. I readily agree that instant teleportations aren't very scientific, but no less so than faster-than-light travel present in a lot of SF works.

I initially, based on what I've heard about the series, assumed it'll be an SF masquerading as fantasy, but the very preface to the first book defined them as a degraded Earth colony

[Allan]

Aspects of both as you say, but being old school, I tend to associate fantasy with not only magic, but a medieval-like society.

Kylara was kind of a fake-out, where I thought she would have an active role in the latter part of the book, but in fact, she was only a foil and a sacrificial character to make a plot point.

I've finished Dragonquest & moved on to The White Dragon. I think Quest was an improvement of Flight, but not overly so. The activities at the end seemed rushed and anti-climactic. I agree with the YA comment, but I found LeGuin to have a much more magical, clean feel to it, without the issues that you've talked about.

[Oleksandr, a.k.a. Acorn]

Allan wrote: "Aspects of both as you say, but being old school, I tend to associate fantasy with not only magic, but a medieval-like society."

Agreed, but what defines such a society? Say, at the beginning of the Foundation or in Dune there are Emperors, but both series are assumed pure SF. In several J.G. Ballard books post-apoc societies turn medieval/rustic, as well as in our two monthly reads last month. But they are all SF

[Oleksandr, a.k.a. Acorn]

Allan wrote: "Kylara was kind of a fake-out, where I thought she would have an active role in the latter part of the book, but in fact, she was only a foil and a sacrificial character to make a plot point.
."

I agree. I think it is just a warning tale, don't be a narcissistic bitch for all your talents won't save you

[Kateblue, 2nd star to the right and straight on til morning]

I am about halfway through All the Weyrs of Pern, and I am really bored and aggravated with it. Too much yak yak and too many short-term characters. Many, many characters. And also, too cut up in tiny scenes to skip through the way that I often do with books I don't like.

There are some plot points that are fascinating, and I want to know what happens, so I have to continue, but arrgh!! All the crap in between!

Also, I must semi-retract my earlier opinion that this book is in the progression of the series right after The White Dragon. As this book progresses, a bunch of time passes, and it becomes clear that much has happened (or is happening).

Also, probably because of the passage of time, the book talks about people I assume were in unread books, (most specifically, I'm guessing, The Renegades of Pern and The Dolphins of Pern). I think that these short spiels (like just a few paragraphs) are just follow ups to clue Pern-lovers into what's happening to their favorite characters now. But since I have not read the other books. these interludes are tiresome. As are the interludes about Pern politics. Many of you know how I hate books that focus on politics.

I will finish to check it off our list, but it seems a poor choice of Hugo nominee. Though, if you are going to read it because you are a completist, you probably should read it right after The White Dragon. I don't think anyone could ever read it as a standalone

[Kalin]

I did get All the Weyrs of Pern and plan to read it to complete the nominees for this series.

[Kateblue, 2nd star to the right and straight on til morning]

Kalin wrote: "I did get All the Weyrs of Pern and plan to read it to complete the nominees for this series."


Good! I am at approx 65% and it is getting more interesting

[Oleksandr, a.k.a. Acorn]

I planned to stop with the trilogy, but will do All the Weyrs as well

[Kateblue, 2nd star to the right and straight on til morning]

All the Weyrs is really not a standalone, is the problem. And the reason I don't like it, mostly, is too many characters. At least I am not having to keep track of them. They appear. They say a few things. They go away.

[Oleksandr, a.k.a. Acorn]

My review https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

[Kalin]

So I was looking through the bookshelves and noticed that only the Dragonriders of Pern trilogy is listed as part of the challenge. I know Kate has read All the Weyrs of Pern as part of the challenge, and I will try to (but probably in 2023). But is anyone else reading it? Should I include it in the challenge and mark it as "read by the group"? It is the only remaining Pern novel on the H/N list, aside from the trilogy. So if we don't include it, it will be eligible for a BOTM nomination but not likely to get chosen for a long time.

[Oleksandr, a.k.a. Acorn]

It hasn't been in the original challenge that said 'trilogy' IIRC. I plan to read it only because it is on the list, but I just don't want it right now

[Allan]

Kalin wrote: "So I was looking through the bookshelves and noticed that only the Dragonriders of Pern trilogy is listed as part of the challenge. I know Kate has read All the Weyrs of Pern as part o..."

I think we deliberately left it out of the challenge, keeping it to a trilogy. There are the two additional nominated books, but limited interest in going that far. I'd keep it to a trilogy and just mark those as Read for now.

[Rebecca (Adventurer)]

I started and read the first book. It was awful on so many levels. I don’t know that I want to read anything else by her.

[Kalin]

Allan wrote: "There are the two additional nominated books, but limited interest in going that far."

I forgot about Moreta.

Rebecca wrote: "It was awful on so many levels."

Say more!

[Rebecca (Adventurer)]

This sums up my thoughts and feelings, not my review. https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

[Rebecca]

Kalin, I really resonate with your comments about the first book, and while the second was a bit better, I still did not like any of the relationships. In all honesty, it’s almost been a month since I finished quest and I can really remember much - maybe I liked the Master Harper bits? I’d give myself a 50% change of finishing the trilogy. And I’ll probably only do that to say I finished it.

[Kalin]

I'm going to finish the trilogy because I'm reading them as an onmnibus and don't want to "DNF" it, but I'm definitely not that engaged by book 2 either. It's not terrible but as I'm reading it I start feeling fomo for things I know will easily be better.

And McCaffrey has some fuuuuucked up ideas about sex. Quest is not better in this regard.

[Allan]

I finished Quest but struggling to get into The White Dragon. Have two books of the Harper hall trilogy, which is recommended reading between Quest & White. I’ll read the required books eventually, but I’m in no rush.

[Oleksandr, a.k.a. Acorn]

Kalin wrote: "And McCaffrey has some fuuuuucked up ideas about sex. Quest is not better in this regard."

Her characters can always claim that's dragons' fault, an emanation of their alien lust through the mindlinks of molding

[Kateblue, 2nd star to the right and straight on til morning]

Kalin wrote: "So I was looking through the bookshelves and noticed that only the Dragonriders of Pern trilogy is listed as part of the challenge. I know Kate has read All the Weyrs of Pern as part o..."

I cannot really recommend All the Weyrs of Pern because it has too many characters etc. It's too busy. However, if you are ever planning on reading it, right after The White Dragon would be the time to do it

[Kalin]

Oleksandr wrote: "Her characters can always claim that's dragons' fault, an emanation of their alien lust through the mindlinks of molding"

No, I don't think they can. There are repeated instances of human sexual relationships characterized by violation of consent and rape which have nothing to do with dragon mating flights. There is an ongoing normalized violence against women characters in the books that is not treated like even worth noting by any narrator. There is no treatment of any of this within the writing that suggests McCaffrey made this a conscious part of her worldbuilding, that she wanted to depict and explore a world where women were subservient to men. The rape culture permeating Pern seems to be a basic, unexamined part of McCaffrey's worldview.

[Kalin]

Phew, I finished the trilogy just in time to close out the year. I honestly don't know if it was worth my time. there were some things about The White Dragon I liked more than the others, but also so many problems with the writing. The pacing is a mess in the second two books, just no sense of buildup or tension, each conflict is dealt with quickly and then forgotten. Plot threads dropped. Characters dropped. I don't like the way McCaffrey deals with her characters, especially the ones she doesn't want the reader to like. I liked Ruth a lot but I thought the third book would be really about discovering more in detail about him. All the mysteries of Pern unravel way too slowly for me, and all the archaeology they did in the closing act of the trilogy didn't lead to any major revelation. Just kinda disappointed, and like the unanimous opinion here, don't see much reason to invest further in this dated series.

[Oleksandr, a.k.a. Acorn]

Kalin wrote: "No, I don't think they can. There are repeated instances of human sexual relationships characterized by violation of consent and rape which have nothing to do with dragon mating flights.."

Playing devil's advocate and in no way thinking that any violation of consent is fine. We know that dragons' mating fights lead to orgies - it seems not only riders are affected. We can assume that repeating orgies create/strengthen neural paths that make such behavior possible even without dragons nearby - like an addictive drug one get without knowledge and then has tremors of withdrawal

[Joe]

Just reading some of the commments..I'm a bit sad it seems not a great amount of love for the series here, but I'll admit Nostalglia probably colors it for me some (this was among the very first fantasy novels I read).

I also wanted to stay as far as the Fantasy vs. Sci Fi aspect... the books are petty solidly in the fantasy realm in my opinion... you could definitely classify them as the 'Sword and Planet' genre, ala John Carter.

That is, until All the Weyrs of Pern.. THAT book takes a decidedly Sci Fi turn. It's too bad (as far as I know, at least) the books after that never really continued the story, but that would have been an interesting one!