Great Expectations, Chp. 01-04

[Tristram]

Hello Fellow Curiosities,

With Great Expectations we have come to our first re-read in this group – we have, indeed, managed to read our way through all the major works of Dickens by now – and that is why, for my recaps, I will draw on texts that I have already posted before, moderately altering them whenever I see fit. For those of you who did not join us in our first reading of the book, though, this will not matter at all because then my recaps will be new to you, anyway. I also hope that it won’t matter for second readers, either. I read these first four chapters in the gym this time, while pedalling away on one of those wheel-less bikes, and I must say their pacing was quicker than mine, and not to keep you waiting any longer, I am posting my recaps two days in advance.

So what happens in our first four chapters?

In Chapter 1 we are plunged right into the middle of the story, i.e. after a short introduction in which our protagonist presents himself as Pip, which is short for Philip Pirrip, an orphan who is, as we learn in the second chapter, brought up by his sister. We learn that Pip’s parents and his five brothers are lying on a village churchyard and that the setting is “the marsh country, down by the river, within, as the river wound, twenty miles of the sea.” And that Pip’s “first most vivid and broad impression of the identity of things” (whatever that means, as he is definitely too old to have been walking around as a toddler hitherto) seems to have been awakened one evening – later, we learn it to be Christmas Eve – on the very churchyard where most of his family are resting:

”At such a time I found out for certain that this bleak place overgrown with nettles was the churchyard; and that Philip Pirrip, late of this parish, and also Georgiana wife of the above, were dead and buried; and that Alexander, Bartholomew, Abraham, Tobias, and Roger, infant children of the aforesaid, were also dead and buried; and that the dark flat wilderness beyond the churchyard, intersected with dikes and mounds and gates, with scattered cattle feeding on it, was the marshes; and that the low leaden line beyond was the river; and that the distant savage lair from which the wind was rushing was the sea; and that the small bundle of shivers growing afraid of it all and beginning to cry, was Pip.”

His crying is harshly interrupted by the appearance of an escaped convict, who is rather a sorry sight, shivering from cold and dampness, and being haunted not only by his pursuers but also by hunger. The convict intimidates Pip and threatens to set a young man, his companion, on him and to make this young man cut out his heart and liver unless he brings him something to eat and a file. Unlike Pip, who is so afraid to promise that he will do as he is bid, the reader notices that this companion does not exist but is just a bogey the convict uses to prevent the boy from betraying him. The chapter ends in the following impressive scene:

”The marshes were just a long black horizontal line then, as I stopped to look after him; and the river was just another horizontal line, not nearly so broad nor yet so black; and the sky was just a row of long angry red lines and dense black lines intermixed. On the edge of the river I could faintly make out the only two black things in all the prospect that seemed to be standing upright; one of these was the beacon by which the sailors steered,—like an unhooped cask upon a pole,—an ugly thing when you were near it; the other, a gibbet, with some chains hanging to it which had once held a pirate. The man was limping on towards this latter, as if he were the pirate come to life, and come down, and going back to hook himself up again. It gave me a terrible turn when I thought so; and as I saw the cattle lifting their heads to gaze after him, I wondered whether they thought so too. I looked all round for the horrible young man, and could see no signs of him. But now I was frightened again, and ran home without stopping.”

In the Second Chapter, we get to know Pip’s family – his bully of a sister, who is twenty years older than he, and her husband Joe Gargery, the village smith, a very good-tempered, slightly naïve man who is clearly under his wife’s thumb. Pip presents his situation at home in a rather humorous light although he lives in awe and fear of his sister:

”My sister, Mrs. Joe Gargery, was more than twenty years older than I, and had established a great reputation with herself and the neighbours because she had brought me up ‘by hand.’ Having at that time to find out for myself what the expression meant, and knowing her to have a hard and heavy hand, and to be much in the habit of laying it upon her husband as well as upon me, I supposed that Joe Gargery and I were both brought up by hand.

She was not a good-looking woman, my sister; and I had a general impression that she must have made Joe Gargery marry her by hand.”

It is in this chapter that we learn that the story begins on Christmas Eve, which I found quite strange because Christmas Eve is a very special night, and so it is odd for Pip not to have mentioned this circumstance before. Maybe, this tells us that Pip’s fears of his environment, especially of the convict and of his sister Mrs. Joe – what is her first name, by the way? –, are so great that they make him forget everything else. During their meal, Pip stows away his slice of buttered bread for the convict, but he also knows that he will have to rifle the larder later on. In the course of the evening, they hear the sound of canons, and Pip learns that they are shot as a warning to make people aware that yet another convict has escaped from the Hulks that are mooring in the estuary of the river.

Some questions:

Great Expectations is the second Dickens novel written exclusively in the first person point of view, the other being David Copperfield. What can we make of this? We know that David Copperfield is partly autobiographical, sometimes even to the point of Dickens divulging his most traumatic childhood experiences. Does Great Expectations also tell us more about Dickens himself? – A first person narration also has the additional charm of working on two levels – first of all, the time level that is narrated but then, second, also on the time level when the narrator tells his story, i.e. when he has garnered more experience and become a sadder, wiser man. We might want to keep our eyes peeled for instances when this second level shines through.

How does the first person point of view work in this story in the light of the two levels? I mean Pip is obviously a small boy who does not know a lot about the world, and, to tell the truth, he does not come over as particularly clever in the first two chapters now, does he?. How does the narrator make us share this naïve point of view, allowing us to partake in Pip’s feelings at the time, and yet convey to us a sense of an older, more mature person telling this story? Just consider the following quotation from the end of Chapter 2:

”Since that time, which is far enough away now, I have often thought that few people know what secrecy there is in the young under terror. No matter how unreasonable the terror, so that it be terror. I was in mortal terror of the young man who wanted my heart and liver; I was in mortal terror of my interlocutor with the iron leg; I was in mortal terror of myself, from whom an awful promise had been extracted; I had no hope of deliverance through my all-powerful sister, who repulsed me at every turn; I am afraid to think of what I might have done on requirement, in the secrecy of my terror.”

I find Mrs. Joe an interesting character: Obviously, she is one of the childhood terrors of Pip, constantly threatening and bullying, and sometimes even beating him. But is she really such a monster, or can we understand her bitterness, e.g. her reproaches towards her husband of her never being allowed to doff her apron, in a way? Joe is apparently not the sharpest knife in the drawer – and what might be the consequences of this for his wife?

How is the convict presented? Is he only a bully, a child’s bogeyman, or do we get an impression of his sufferings and his fears, too?

As usual, and this goes for all the questions I may come up with, these points are just meant as potential starting-points for discussions, and you are, of course, also welcome to present your own ideas rather than stick to questions.

[Tristram]

In Chapter 3, Pip gets up very early on Christmas Day and pilfers some “wittles” from the pantry in order to take them to the convict – a very risky endeavour because with such a sharp housekeeper as his sister, the theft will sooner or later be found out. On his way to the old Battery, where the convict said he would be waiting for him, Pip is haunted by his bad conscience, and when he thinks that he has finally found his man, he notices with a shock that it is another convict, probably the young man the first convict had talked to him about. The stranger, however, tries to hit him and absconds into the fog. Pip then runs to the Battery, where the first convict is waiting for him and soon starts to devour the food that the little boy has brought. He does it more like a dog than a human being. When Pip tells him that he has encountered the young man, and then gives a description of the man, mentioning a wound in his face, the first convict seems dismayed and starts to use the file on his ankle with a vengeance, and apparently, he is driven by a feeling of ill-will towards the other convict.

In Chapter 4, we have some comic relief, largely at the expense of our protagonist, though, when Mrs. Joe and her husband entertain guests for Christmas. These guests are the parish clerk Mr. Wopsle, who seems to consider himself not yet in the social station that is due to him, Mr. and Mrs. Hubble, and Joe Gargery’s uncle Pumblechook, a well-to-do corn-chandler from the neighbouring cathedral town (i.e. probably Rochester),

”a large hard-breathing middle-aged slow man, with a mouth like a fish, dull staring eyes, and sandy hair standing upright on his head, so that he looked as if he had just been all but choked, and had that moment come to”

During the dinner, all guests make very uncomplimentary remarks as to Pip in particular and young people in general, especially with regard to their ungratefulness – only Joe tries to make the situation better for Pip by ladling gravy on his plate. When the moment comes for Mrs. Joe to present the company with a piece of pork pie, the pork pie being a gift from Uncle Pumblechook, Pip’s heart sinks into his boots because the pork pie was amongst the victuals that he took to the convict. His theft will out now, and that’s why he bolts from the room and out of the door, where he runs into a party of soldiers, one of them holding out a pair of handcuffs to him.

Some questions:

As before, what do you make of Mrs. Gargery? What might be her feelings for her younger brother in particular? Consider the following quotation, voicing Pip’s feelings:

”I was always treated as if I had insisted on being born in opposition to the dictates of reason, religion, and morality, and against the dissuading arguments of my best friends. Even when I was taken to have a new suit of clothes, the tailor had orders to make them like a kind of Reformatory, and on no account to let me have the free use of my limbs.”

Again, what do you think of the first perspective here? How are we made to participate in Pip’s anguish at having stolen the food from his sister’s pantry?

Why might the first convict react in such an infuriated way to the news that some other man has escaped from the Hulks? And what do you think of his, rather gentler, behaviour towards Pip on the occasion of their second meeting?

Have you got any favourite quotations from the first four chapters? And what made you choose them?

[Xan]

I took Mrs. Joe seriously last time I read this. This time I'm seeing chapter 2 as pure farce with Mrs. Joe as the butt of the farce -- banging Joe's head against the wall repeatedly, pouring that much tar down both their throats. She's the farcicle stereotype bitch mama. The thing is though, she didn't abandon Pip, and she hasn't had a lot of good choices in her life, not if she's wanted to do the right thing. Stll, its tough to like her.

[Xan]

I think the point is it's impossible to take her seriously. Same thing with the dinner party.

[John]

My impression of the first chapter, when I first read it 40 years ago, and read it again, was that Dickens was foreshadowing with the convict. There was just a hunch that this guy was coming back in some fashion, as a minor character or major character.

Visually, the Hulks mooring on the river stuck with me. They seemed to be more shadow than presence, and altogether ominous.

As for phrasing, well, I have never forgotten how proud Mrs. Joe Gargery was about raising Pip “by hand.” And she certainly had a cheering section in the Pumblechook crew. It was like she was getting an ovation for being so miserable to Pip.

[Xan]

They are a miserable lot, aren't they, John?

[John]

Xan wrote: "They are a miserable lot, aren't they, John?"

Yes, that is indeed a miserable lot. In some respects, they create a good contrast for bringing out the matter of fact decency of Joe Gargery.

And Uncle Pumblechook is another memory I have from 40 years later. The word vapid must have been invented with him in mind.

[John]

My other favorite phrase from these early chapters is “Now, lookee here!”

I’ve started saying it to my cats.

[Peacejanz]

As a person who grew up in the mountains, I and all of my relatives said and continue to say, "Now, lookee here." It means, "you better stop right now and listen, I am not messing around, listen to me, I will tell you what is what!" John, this is not a statement to be triffled with. The speaker means business and you better stop right now and get ready for a blistering. I have only used it on people, never on cats. Do the cats obey?

Seriously, it is interesting that Dickens used a phrase that is still used in the mountains of Kentucky, west Tennessee, north Georgia, and north Alabama. We are just slow to catch on sometimes. peace, janz

[John]

Peacejanz wrote: "As a person who grew up in the mountains, I and all of my relatives said and continue to say, "Now, lookee here." It means, "you better stop right now and listen, I am not messing around, listen to..."

That’s very interesting, Janz. Dickens did make at least one trip I know of to the south and may have heard it then. That trip was in 1842, so it was before GE.

My cats rarely listen to me, so it’s more of something new to try and not work.

[Chamomile]

John wrote: "My other favorite phrase from these early chapters is “Now, lookee here!”

I’ve started saying it to my cats."

That is truly delightful! I feel the need to say that from now on when in the presence of my pets. (Though I'll need to say it in a gentle manner so as to not scare my rabbit).

[Chamomile]

Mrs. Gargery is an interesting character,
but definitely not a very kind-hearted person. Though I found your point of "her never being allowed to doff her apron" very insightful, for I believe this to be the root of her bitterness. She feels that she has to be the responsible one in the family, (Which in a way she is). However, these feelings become ones of debt that Pip and Joe owe to her.
Since she feels she doesn't receive any help that she wishes from either of them, she looks to earn respect from her community by raising them "by hand". I think she believes that Pip and Joe need to work to earn respect and rejects them for not living to her internal standards.
Thereby invalidating their right to live. the quote "I was always treated as if I had insisted on being born in opposition to the dictates of reason" could also be a reflection on the standard Mrs. Joe holds for herself, and punishes those who fail to "justify" their right to life as she may feel she has to work hard to do. This is not to justify her abuse, but I believe this warped perception could be an explanation for her actions.

I really enjoyed the first-person narrations!
One of my favorite parts of Dickens's writing is the thorough detail he gives to the atmosphere. In the first person, the atmosphere articulates Pip's current feelings based on how he views his environment. Especially in chapter three. For example, "The cattle came upon me with suddenness, staring out of their eyes, and streaming out of their nostrils, 'Helloa, young thief!'."
His internal struggle of wanting to keep his life, and help the convict, while knowing he is stealing at the expense of Mrs. Joe, who doesn't see value in his own life he's trying to preserve.
I find the scene where Pip asks what a convict is and Mrs. Joe's response is, "People who are put in Hulks because they murder, and because they rob, and forge, and do all sorts of bad; and they always begin by asking questions." While I don't have many guesses at the convict's story and motives yet, I wonder if this sentence from Mrs. Joe is why Pip was able to sympathize with him, feeling that he has robed and asked questions, which is the start of the route that the convict who scared him took in his youth according to Mrs. Joe's beliefs.

Although I don't know much about the convict yet, I find this visual comparison to a scared dog to serve some importance to his character. Just like Sydney Carton being called the "Jackle" and Strvyer the "lion". Does the dog symbolize potential loyalty to Pip in the future? Does it indicate his manner outside of his eating style? Has his trust been damaged like an injured dog, in the way the convict's poor state of health could indicate? I could be wrong on this but I'm interested to see if anything comes of this visaul comparsont!

Unrated to the questions but I find Joe and Pip's friendship very sweet but also sad under their painful circumstances. Comparing the bites they take out of their bread, to pouring extra gravy as a way to comfort Pip, all warmed my heart. I hope for the best outcome for the two in the story. :)

[Peter]

Chamomile wrote: "Mrs. Gargery is an interesting character,
but definitely not a very kind-hearted person. Though I found your point of "her never being allowed to doff her apron" very insightful, for I believe thi..."

Hi Chamomile

I too think that GE shows Dickens in full flight with his use of description, detail, and creation of mood. He seems to have complete control over both his material and the most effective way to present his narrative to his readers.

Mrs Gargery is a fascinating character. When Dickens uses the phrase ´raised by hand’ there are so many different levels those three words suggest to the reader. When I envision Joe I see a man of both great strength and, at the same time, a gentle man. He and Pip are outmatched by Mrs Joe. It will be interesting to see how Dickens evolves the family narrative.

[[deleted user]]

When I first read the book, I thought Pip helped the convict purely because he was scared. Now I read something different too: empathy. He saw someone being cold and hungry and scared, and with a sister like Mrs. Joe he probably knew that feeling to some extend (although not as much, because then even the miserable bunch would start talking. Mrs. Joe had to look benevolent after all). I think it's also because my own outlook has changed, because I now see the man's fear, his discomfort, his hunger. It also is a bit of showing what true goodness is. The people in the village see Mrs. Joe as good, because she takes care of her own baby brother. I'm 12 years older than my youngest brother, and to be honest, I think any big sister worth her salt couldn't just leave a baby brother and not take care of him. Taking care of those who belong to you might be difficult, it might show you're doing what you should, but it doesn't make you a good and loving person by default. Then there is pip, who might be scared, but he is scared of his sister too. He goes against his fear of his sister to help someone he does not even like, and by helping he does not get any brownie points either, like his sister does by caring for him. He sees someone who is scary, but also cold and hungry and scared himself, and he helps. Not because he should, but ... well, just because.

[Peter]

Jantine wrote: "When I first read the book, I thought Pip helped the convict purely because he was scared. Now I read something different too: empathy. He saw someone being cold and hungry and scared, and with a s..."

Jantine

Yes. You express my thoughts as well. The story begins with a boy named Pip, but he contains many dimensions, all of which will continue to develop and ricochet off each other as we move through the novel.

Of all Dickens’s characters, I find Pip the most puzzling, due in part, to the fact he is (in my opinion anyway) one character that does not slip neatly into any preformed box.

[Xan]

The first thing that happens to me when Tristram posts the chapter summaries is my internet goes out. That's a horror. You know what else is a horror? -- that marsh. What a wonderful location for a horror movie. (And doesn't Dickens almost always starts us off with an interesting locale and a bit of a mystery.)

The elements are harsh and forbidding, and I feel the marshes can swallow up Pip and the convict as easily as an amoeba absorbs its prey. The sea, the briny wetlands, winds that roll over the lands building up steam until you can't hear yourself think, and mists that rise from the swamps. (Can there be winds and mist at the same time. Doesn't the wind blow away the mist?) And this is where Pip plays? Anything is better than his sister I guess.

[Xan]

Joe's a nice guy, but he lets Pip's sister do what she wants to Pip (and to himself too). Pip has nowhere to turn, and Wobble, Hobble, and Pumblechuck -- Is that a law firm? -- show him no care either. So far, with the lonely exception of Joe, the convict has treated Pip the best.

As we progress through this story and watch Pip grow up, It might help to remember how the people he grew up with treated him. It's not with love he will look back at these times. What's Christmas to him other than an occasion where bullies pick on him?

[John]

As I get older, I think more about mortality issues. It makes me wonder if Dickens was feeling the same way during his later years, as Great Expectations starts with a haunting graveyard scene and Our Mutual Friend starts with bodies being fished out of the Thames. You have these scenes early on, as if this motif was really weighing on him.

[Tristram]

Xan wrote: " What's Christmas to him other than an occasion where bullies pick on him?"

A very good observation, Xan, because it helps me settle a question I have had while reading these chapters, namely why on Earth Pip made just a casual mention of its being Christmas Eve when he first ran into the convict. Normally, especially with Dickens, the man who invented Christmas as we know it or at least, the man who invented a story that is part and parcel of Christmas to me, the fact that it is Christmas would receive more notion, wouldn't it? However, for Pip, Christmas is just another dreary domestic scene, its only difference lying in there being more than one person around to bully him and pick on him. So why should he be looking forward to Christmas?

[Tristram]

Chamomile wrote: "Mrs. Gargery is an interesting character,
but definitely not a very kind-hearted person. Though I found your point of "her never being allowed to doff her apron" very insightful, for I believe this to be the root of her bitterness. She feels that she has to be the responsible one in the family, (Which in a way she is)."

Yes, Chamomile, Mrs. Gargery is really an interesting character, and since I don't have to suffer under her domestic sceptre, I feel inclined to regard her in a slightly different light than that Pip is shedding on her. I can imagine that after her parents' death she was left not only alone in the world but with a little brother to care of. A young woman, perhaps an adolescent, without any family connection in a little village in the marshes probably had no other option but marriage unless she wanted to go begging, and therefore, I can imagine that her marriage with Gargery was also a marriage of convenience to a certain degree. A smith, by the way, would be what is considered a good match because it used to, and still is, a very reputable trade and guarantee a good source of income. I can imagine Mrs. Joe being very disappointed, though, when she found out that her husband was some sort of kid in a man's body - it is very nice to have someone like that as a chum, but definitely not so nice to have him as a husband because the responsibility to go through daily life is all yours. I am with you in all the rest, Chamomile, concerning Mrs. Joe's bitterness and warped thinking, but I think that part of the blame for her becoming like this would also go to Joe, who is simply not man enough to make a good and caring husband.

I also noticed that the couple don't have any children of their own, and I'd say this may be either because one of them can't have children or because they are not so close to each other at all. I have an elderly relative who had to look after her much younger brother when she was 14 years old because her mother would just not do it but prefer to drink alcohol all day long, whereas the father built up a business. The young - now old - lady in question did love her brother but it was because of him she couldn't continue school although she was brainy enough and it was because of him that she had to play mother when she was just a girl, and there is a streak of vengeful bitterness in her character, the same no-nonsense attitude that we can see in Mrs. Gargery.

Dickens was a good observer of human nature, because also the following observation Pip makes about his sister is true of my elderly relative:

"Mrs. Joe was a very clean housekeeper, but had an exquisite art of making her cleanliness more uncomfortable and unacceptable than dirt itself. Cleanliness is next to Godliness, and some people do the same by their religion."

All in all, Mrs. Joe is played for farce, and we are not supposed to like her, but I think that the reasons why she became the woman we see cannot all be laid to her own door.

[Xan]

I think it's okay to think of Mrs. Joe as an abused woman, but abused by life's chances. She, like so many people in this world, get even by abusing someone who didn't abuse them. They think it is their right to do so because they too were innocent of guilt. This is a huge problem in the world, and perhaps Dickens is picking up on this. Will Pip do the same when he is in a position to do so?

[Tristram]

Chamomile wrote: "One of my favorite parts of Dickens's writing is the thorough detail he gives to the atmosphere. In the first person, the atmosphere articulates Pip's current feelings based on how he views his environment. Especially in chapter three. For example, "The cattle came upon me with suddenness, staring out of their eyes, and streaming out of their nostrils, 'Helloa, young thief!'."

I don't know if you have watched David Lean's film adaptation of this novel but what I found very meaningful is that he made a lot of the marsh scenes and that he even included the passage you quoted in his film, which leaves out quite a lot of other details and lots of characters to boot. Scenes like this show clearly what an intimidated and harassed little boy Pip is.

[Tristram]

Xan wrote: "I think it's okay to think of Mrs. Joe as an abused woman, but abused by life's chances. She, like so many people in this world, get even by abusing someone who didn't abuse them. They think it is ..."

I can say that much for my elderly relative: Although she is well-meaning in her heart of hearts, she is not easy to live with because you always sense the smouldering aggression in her.

[Xan]

Chamomile wrote: "One of my favorite parts of Dickens's writing is the thorough detail he gives to the atmosphere. In the first person, the atmosphere articulates Pip's current feelings based on how he views his environment.

Excellent observation, all of it, the entire post.

[Xan]

Tristram wrote: "I can say that much for my elderly relative: Although she is well-meaning in her heart of hearts, she is not easy to live with because you always sense the smouldering aggression in her. "

Yes, the undiscriminating aggression, that's it.

[Tristram]

What I also find in my elderly relative as well as in Mrs. Joe is their eagerness to please society and their readiness to put on a friendly face whenever someone like Mr. Pumblechook or someone from the church is around.

[Julie]

John wrote: Peacejanz wrote: "As a person who grew up in the mountains, I and all of my relatives said and continue to say, "Now, lookee here." It means, "you better stop right now and listen, I am not messing around, listen to..."

That’s very interesting, Janz. Dickens did make at least one trip I know of to the south and may have heard it then. That trip was in 1842, so it was before GE.

It probably came straight over from the British Islands, and maybe was current both at home and abroad when Dickens arrived. I read once that the contemporary American accent is closer to 18th century English than the contemporary English accent is, because some speech patterns that crossed the ocean in the 18th century just kept there.

[Julie]

Tristram wrote: "I don't know if you have watched David Lean's film adaptation of this novel but what I found very meaningful is that he made a lot of the marsh scenes "

I really love the way Lean uses the wind in the opening scenes of that adaptation to add to the bleakness of the scene.

[Tristram]

Julie wrote: "John wrote: Peacejanz wrote: "As a person who grew up in the mountains, I and all of my relatives said and continue to say, "Now, lookee here." It means, "you better stop right now and listen, I am..."

I can give another example of how American English in sometimes more "conservative" than British English. The form "gotten", for instance, became "got" in British English, but it was a standard form in earlier forms of English.

[Peter]

Tristram wrote: "Hello Fellow Curiosities,

With Great Expectations we have come to our first re-read in this group – we have, indeed, managed to read our way through all the major works of Dickens by now – and tha..."

Dickens seldom does anything in his novels, especially his later ones, without some specific motivation. Let’s consider two instances in Chapter 2. First, why does the novel begin on Christmas Eve? Could it be to give a background context to a child’s beginning in life? Pip has just visited the graveyard which is a place of life’s termination. In the first chapter Pip contemplates his place in the world. Pip is confronted with a threat to his life. How do we deal with the events of our life that threaten us? As a Bildungsroman we are about to find out.

As Tristram pointed out GE is Dickens’s second novel written in the first person. It is necessary, of course, to avoid spoilers but let me toss this out to you. Dickens and his wife Catherine have been separated for about three years and he is now in a new phase of his life. Could we find in this novel reflections on his new life, on his new way of looking at his past life, reflecting on himself in the present and and coming to terms with what might lie in his future?

[Xan]

I found fascinating how Pip envisioned his parrents based on the block lettering on their gravestones. And then his siblings, small, even tiny and maybe shrinking away. Good stuff.

[Xan]

Something I noticed this time around I missed in prior readings. When the convict confronts Pip and asks him what he's doing there, Pip points towards his mom. I previously thought the convict was running to catch mom, but now I realize he's running away. He only stops when he realizes no one is there.

[Peter]

Chapter three brings Pip’s feeling of guilt to the forefront. Guilt is a concept we need to focus on as we move forward. What is it that causes guilt in a person, in Pip? How does one attend to and rid themself of guilt?

The shackles that the convict wears are what the convict wants to remove from his person. Shackles define him as a prisoner. Metaphorically, what we wear is one way others define us and define our place in the world. Clothing will become extremely important as we move into the novel.

There is so much in this novel. I can think of no other Dickens novel that comes close to the density of the symbols, metaphors, parallels and comparisons that thread their way through the chapters of GE. Keep your pens/pencils close by. We are in for a wonderful read.

[Xan]

And isn't it interesting how Joe is described as Hercules in strength and weakness?

Or is that a note I made and not Dickens. LOL

[Peter]

Xan wrote: "I found fascinating how Pip envisioned his parrents based on the block lettering on their gravestones. And then his siblings, small, even tiny and maybe shrinking away. Good stuff."

Hi Xan

I agree. Even though Pip has Joe and his sister and a home he is alone, isolated, in the world. How he will find his path in life we will discover. GE is such a great novel.

[[deleted user]]

Xan wrote: "Joe's a nice guy, but he lets Pip's sister do what she wants to Pip (and to himself too). Pip has nowhere to turn."

This time while reading I want to hold onto this thought too, Xan. Joe's a nice guy in a way, but is he truly kind to Pip? No, at least at this point he is not, he is an adult and lets his wife and her friends/relatives beat and bully a child to save his own hide. While I have a soft spot for Joe, I want to hang onto that his behaviour at this point will indeed form the way Pip will look at him later.

[Tristram]

Jantine,

Yes, Joe gravy gift is not really helpful but might even serve to aggravate Pip's situation. In a way, your observation strengthens my point that Joe is more like a child in an adult's body, something that may exasperate Mrs. Joe even more, and not so much of a responsible husband. On the other hand, a little earlier on, he stepped between his wife and Pip when Mrs. Joe wanted to beat her brother.

[John]

In looking back, my memory of Mrs. Joe Gargery found her beleaguered with burden. Now with the years passed, and what I see as her nearly constant refrain about all she has done, she is just another legend in her own mind.

[Avery]

Peacejanz wrote: "As a person who grew up in the mountains, I and all of my relatives said and continue to say, "Now, lookee here." It means, "you better stop right now and listen, I am not messing around, listen to..."

there is apparently some linguistic school that see those speech patterns as descended from Britain, so it may not be so much being slow on the uptake, as long to let go. https://youtu.be/mNqY6ftqGq0

Edit: Well apparently a lot of us knew about this and I should have finished reading before replying! I'll leave this up because the video is so quick and has such a great demonstration of the accents.

[Avery]

I some how zeroed in on the same passaged in the book as Tristram!

The description of the setting in these first chapters is brilliant. The world feels like a bubble, enclosed by the river, marshes, and Mrs. Joe. As small children's world's are bubbles, it feels right.

I get that perhaps Mrs. Joe might be a ridiculous character, but I can't help but feel trapped by her vicariously. It leads into Mr. Dickens amazing astute observations of the human psyche. Whether the terror is based on an objective reality or not, a child experiencing a terror is just that. And an adult who will just as likely box your ears as feed you is a terror. And a child has no agency to free themselves from the situation. Mr. Joe seems to be trapped along with Pip in this childhood bubble of the world and it makes me wonder if he might not be neruo-typical. I don't think there is enough information yet to say how, but that's just what struck me. Added to the fact that he is apparently good looking and has a good trade, how did someone who is not good looking snatch him up? I may be reading to much into it.

[Chamomile]

Peter wrote: "Chamomile wrote: "Mrs. Gargery is an interesting character,
but not a very kind-hearted person. Though I found your point of "her never being allowed to doff her apron" very insightful,..."

Hello Peter,
I completely agree with your insights. I admire how Dickens can strike such strong visual concepts through long chapter openings of Pip in the graveyard, to simple phrases that have the power to linger for a long time. I'm looking forward to seeing what new visuals will be introduced or echoed in the upcoming chapters!

[Chamomile]

Tristram wrote: "Chamomile wrote: "Mrs. Gargery is an interesting character,
but not a very kind-hearted person. Though I found your point of "her never being allowed to doff her apron" very insightful, ..."

Hello Tristram,
You have excellent points!

What you bring up of Mrs. Gargery turning to marriage after being orphaned, given the area and the few rights women had, marriage was often the biggest choice you could make, and if you felt you'd made the wrong choice, it would have felt devastating. As you mentioned earlier, she would have been forced to grow up, get married, and raise a child way before most. She could have had many hopes for the future that were completely impossible after this event.

I can also see your point with Mr. Joe. Even though he seems kind and gentle, due to Mrs. Gargery carrying the heavy load, it would be a very difficult marriage without the needed help from him. Since Mrs. Gargery can't find a way to get Mr. Joe to help more, she has to work extra hard to keep things in order and suffers internally as her want for a better life has been lost and is now defined by the loss of her parents that she couldn't control. Through all this, she looks for comfort in what she can control in the cleanliness of the house.

Thank you very much for sharing your insights! They were very interesting.

[Chamomile]

Tristram wrote: "Chamomile wrote: "One of my favorite parts of Dickens's writing is the thorough detail he gives to the atmosphere. In the first person, the atmosphere articulates Pip's current feelings based on ho..."

I haven't seen it, but now I must! It sounds really good from the description. I love good film adaptations so I am excited to watch it. The only Dickens film adaptations I've seen have been A Christmas Coral kids films and a BBC kids cartoon of A Tale of Two Cities where Lucie is a brunette. It will indeed be a refreshing change of pace!

[Chamomile]

Xan wrote: "Chamomile wrote: "One of my favorite parts of Dickens's writing is the thorough detail he gives to the atmosphere. In the first person, the atmosphere articulates Pip's current feelings based on ho..."

Thank you so very much, Xan!

[Peter]

A Tale of Two Cities was about the best of times and the worst of times. Great Expectations has an equally interesting opening paragraph that also contains a key insight into what will be a major focus of the novel. Unlike A Tale of Two Cities, however, the insight is buried a bit deeper in the phrasing. In the opening paragraph we hear the narrator’s voice tell us his family name is Pirrip and his ‘infant tongue’ makes that Pip. Both Pirrip and Pip are palindromes.

Could this be Dickens signalling that the novel will be concerned about reversals and focussed on what that appears to be clear is, in fact, the opposite. The novel opens in a graveyard and Pip is trying to come to terms with what his deceased family looks like by imagining their appearance from the lettering on their gravestones. In the third paragraph of the chapter Pip states ‘my first most vivid and broad impression of the identity of things, seems to me to have been gained on a memorable raw afternoon towards evening.´ As a reader, one of our earliest questions is who is Pip, and how did he get to the place he is in life?

As his last name and his chosen shorter name are both palindromes we need to be aware of who he presents himself to be and what he will become.

[Xan]

Here is an article (and photos) about the Hoo peninsula, where the opening scenes of GE take place.

https://julian-hoffman.com/2017/07/11...

[Xan]

Peter wrote: "A Tale of Two Cities was about the best of times and the worst of times. Great Expectations has an equally interesting opening paragraph that also contains a key insight into what will be a major f..."

That's fascinating, Peter.

[John]

Xan wrote: "Here is an article (and photos) about the Hoo peninsula, where the opening scenes of GE take place.

https://julian-hoffman.com/2017/07/11..."

That’s great. Place a little darkness over those pictures and seems to fit what Dickens put in my mind.

[David]

I'm loving GE already. This is the second time I've read it, without giving any spoilers, knowing what I know from the first time makes it a whole new experience.
And of course, these early chapters contain my favourite ever Dickens quotation from the Christmas feast, when Pip describes his uncomfortable position at the table as being "regaled with those obscure corners of pork of which the pig, when living, had had the least reason to be vain"
It always seems a wonderful turn of phrase and reminds me of Saki - one of my other favourite writers.

[John]

I did note in Chapter Four that Pip is not allowed to use Uncle when addressing Pumblechook, under the threat of severe punishment.

My early memory of Mrs. Joe Gargery was relatively benign, but she’s rather a monster in my second reading.