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The Unknown Ajax Spoilers Thread August 2022
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Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂
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Jul 31, 2022 02:20AM
This is the thread for open spoilers & final conclusions.
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For the first time I noted that the book starts out with a dead count of Victorian-melodramatic proportions: GH has killed off 6 people to get the plot going as intended: 3 sons + 1 grandson, plus Hugo's mother + grandfather. Did I miss any corpses? ;-)
sabagrey wrote: "For the first time I noted that the book starts out with a dead count of Victorian-melodramatic proportions: GH has killed off 6 people to get the plot going as intended: 3 sons + 1 grandson, plus ..."Ha, I hadn't noticed this before! Some of them died quite a while ago though!
Can I be wicked & say I hope Lord Darracott joins them soon! He is so arrogant, stupid & nasty!
Also Lord D has daughters who are hand waved off as not being important! (& never physically enter the story)
sabagrey wrote: "For the first time I noted that the book starts out with a dead count of Victorian-melodramatic proportions: GH has killed off 6 people to get the plot going as intended: 3 sons + 1 grandson, plus ..."Pretty bloodthirsty, haha!
Lord Darracott is awful! He could be the victim in one of her mysteries
I've always wondered a little whether Vincent fancies Anthea, and this is part of the reason why he is so over-the-top hostile to Hugo. Here's this (p. 51): Anthea: When you know how few pleasures come in my way, you might have granted me the indulgence of refusing you!’ He laughed, but said, a certain gleam in his eyes: ‘I wonder if you would?’
She met his look without a trace of embarrassment,
…
He was nettled, but made a quick recover.
What do you think?
I think it is very possible he does fancy her: she is classy, smart, good looking, fun - why wouldn't he? One thing we can be sure of: he fancies himself more!
Jackie wrote: "I think it is very possible he does fancy her: she is classy, smart, good looking, fun - why wouldn't he? One thing we can be sure of: he fancies himself more!"
Yes, that's Vincent in a nutshell!
Jackie wrote: "I think it is very possible he does fancy her: she is classy, smart, good looking, fun - why wouldn't he? One thing we can be sure of: he fancies himself more!"
Very well said! I always got the impression Vincent was amusing himself by flirting with the only available attractive young gentlewoman when visiting Lord D. He’s so full of himself, he was used to being “cock of the walk” about the place, until Hugo showed up.
Vincent is another example of GH subverting her own tropes. Vincent like (spoiler for another GH Regency) (view spoiler) appears in character, skills & conversation to be a typical Heyer hero - only of course he isn't.
On every re-read I notice what I feel is one of GH's very rare references to the economic situation of the time: "Times have been bad lately, what with Luddite riots, and the depression that followed close on the Peace. The harvests were bad last year, too" (S.261)
With GH, it's only from the mill owner's perspective and in terms of reduced profits, not the people (of course). And "bad harvests" seem to be quite a euphemism if it is, as I suppose, a reference to the "Year without Summer" (1816).
I notice it because it is so rare. In most books, we hear only of individual circumstances. (view spoiler) - Are there any other places?
Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂ wrote: "Vincent is another example of GH subverting her own tropes. Vincent like (spoiler for another GH Regency) [spoilers removed] appears in character, skills & conversation to be a typical Heyer hero -..."I'd like to see Vincent as the hero in another romance - I don't dislike him and don't think he is irredeemabe. And particularly, I would like to see the heroine who brings him down, and to the altar - she would have to be a very special female (of Sophy's proportions, or Frederica's, maybe)
I just love Lady Aurelia. She is an outstanding character and her lovely speech at the end makes the book in my opinion. I do wonder what she must really think of her sons!The finale at the end would be really good to see in theatre.
Susan wrote: "I just love Lady Aurelia. She is an outstanding character and her lovely speech at the end makes the book in my opinion. I do wonder what she must really think of her sons!The finale at the end w..."
I've sometimes wondered why Lady Aurelia, daughter of an Earl, married Matthew: a younger son without title and fortune, and nothing outstanding about him. For the old name? For his malleability?
"I've sometimes wondered why Lady Aurelia, daughter of an Earl, married Matthew: a younger son without title and fortune, and nothing outstanding about him. For the old name? For his malleability?"I always thought it was, if not his malleability, his easy-going and (oddly for one of his family) mostly responsible nature that might have attracted her. It might be a bit harsh to say she could make something of him - together, they could make a good life sounds better. She might have wanted a family, too, even if she had control of enough money to live comfortably out of society with a companion. There could have been push factors as well - she might have been unhappy at home, or the only more prominent suitors might have been domineering or uninterested in a family life or too clearly only interested in her dowry and rank.
We also don't know how many sisters Lady Aurelia may have had, and how much pressure there would be from her family to marry. Most upper-crust families did want their daughters to do that, after all!
I don’t think Lady Aurelia was ever a beauty, and she doesn’t seem to have had a flirtatious bone in her body, so I guess she didn’t “take” in her season(s). Maybe her father was ruined and she didn’t have much of a portion?As to the economic situation in the fall of 1817, there was a huge financial crisis after the war, with plunging prices for commodities and panicked runs on regional banks that led to many failures. And yes, 1816 was the “year without a summer” so by 1817 there would have been food shortages and bread riots as well as the Luddite riots. Working as a farm laborer always paid much less than working for smugglers, so whole communities along the coast did little farming or herding and subsisted mostly on the free trade. One of the reasons I like this book so much is that it is more rooted in economic reality than most of her novels.
The nasty Darracotts remind me of the family in one of Heyer’s modern novels, Penhallow. I don’t think Vincent was in love with Anthea or even wanted to marry anyone; but he was so full of the importance of family and heritage that if he had to marry, she would have been an acceptable choice in his eyes.
Abigail wrote:One of the reasons I like this book so much is that it is more rooted in economic reality than most of her novels.
that's true, the only other one coming to mind that you can say that about is A Civil Contract.
No, Lady Aurelia did have a respectable portion--that's specifically mentioned, and later we learn that Vincent's allowance is paid mostly out of his mother's money.
Abigail wrote: "One of the reasons I like this book so much is that it is more rooted in economic reality than most of her novels."It's dangerous territory for light-hearted romance: the way GH glosses over lightly (mainly intended as her usual guess-the-date quiz) what was, in history, misery and famine for so many, is close to perverse. I feel it like a punch in the gut every time.
I can more easily accept all those books where she does not mention economic reality at all as placed in her fantasy Regency world, and can read them - and like them - as such.
It's paradoxical, I know.
Mod
I've wondered that, too! They seem happy enough together, but I can't see it as a love match, somehow. Perhaps she was the eldest of many sisters and didn't 'take', so there was pressure from younger sisters to move out of their way. I think Matthew did well for himself, don't you?
I sometimes wonder what Lord Darracott's wife was like. Over the course of the novel we learn a good deal about the family, but there are some notable gaps. For instance, one assumes that Lord Darracott has a Christian name, but we never find out what it is!
sabagrey wrote: "Abigail wrote: "One of the reasons I like this book so much is that it is more rooted in economic reality than most of her novels."It's dangerous territory for light-hearted romance: the way GH g..."
I totally agree. I’ve always thought the romanticised world she created was perfect for the style of books she wrote so well. When she attempts to include the harsh realities of the real Regency (or Georgian) worlds, then her avoidance of the harsh suffering, exploitation and abuse of these eras is harder to ignore. I want my fiction to be one or the other - escapist romance or harsh reality.
Susan in Perthshire wrote: "sabagrey wrote: "Abigail wrote: "One of the reasons I like this book so much is that it is more rooted in economic reality than most of her novels."It's dangerous territory for light-hearted roma..."
I feel the same! I like to read nonfiction history books, so I prefer my fiction to be entertaining and fun!
Susan wrote: "I just love Lady Aurelia. She is an outstanding character and her lovely speech at the end makes the book in my opinion. I do wonder what she must really think of her sons!The finale at the end w..."
I'm with you on this - I adore Lady Aurelia's entrance and speech! They way she handles the entire situation yet refers to herself as a mere weak female in need of male guidance when it is obvious that she is anything but!!!
Cheryl wrote: ""I've sometimes wondered why Lady Aurelia, daughter of an Earl, married Matthew: a younger son without title and fortune, and nothing outstanding about him. For the old name? For his malleability?"..."They do seem to have quite a good marriage. They seem to complement each other. I don't suppose theirs was a madly passionate romance but each probably saw the other's qualities (and Lady Aurelia would certainly have taken calm stock of Matthew's faults too) and reckoned that they could make a good go of it.
Abigail wrote: "Maybe that’s why not so many people enjoy The Foundling, but it’s high on my list."I like The Foundling too. And Civil Contract. I love the 'frothy' stories too, but I also enjoy having a bit of grounding too.
I think the most grounded romance story is probably An Infamous Army.
Abigail wrote: "Maybe that’s why not so many people enjoy The Foundling, but it’s high on my list."Ok, that was actually one of my favorites, I (view spoiler)
GreyGirl wrote: "Susan wrote: "I just love Lady Aurelia. She is an outstanding character and her lovely speech at the end makes the book in my opinion. I do wonder what she must really think of her sons!The final..."
Lol, well put - she is one amazing lady, no nonsense about her! I always wonder what the men around her, who know very well how strong she is, make of her still affecting the “weak woman” act. I can’t help thinking, deep in their hearts, if they are at all honest, they realize she and women like her make a sham of the whole idea!
GreyGirl wrote: "Abigail wrote: "Maybe that’s why not so many people enjoy The Foundling, but it’s high on my list."I like The Foundling too. And Civil Contract. I love the 'frothy' stories too, but ..."
Yes, I find with such a skilled writer, I can enjoy both the more realistic stories, and the purely fizzy, witty romances. Foundling and Civil Contract are two of my favorites - there is plenty of humor, despite the more realistic look at (view spoiler)
Mod
It's how she gets away with it! Matthew knows he can always count on her to support and defer to him in public, so he can allow her to manage his life without feeling any the less a patriarch for it.
I love the way she's the only one to see through Hugo right from the start - she goes by her own observations and isn't blinded by appearance and prejudice.
GreyGirl wrote: "Cheryl wrote: ""I've sometimes wondered why Lady Aurelia, daughter of an Earl, married Matthew: a younger son without title and fortune, and nothing outstanding about him. For the old name? For his..."I think she was very astute, and realised that she would have things the way she wanted in her marriage. After all, Matthew follows her family's politics, not his own! And in turn he achieves more than he would ever have achieved without her backbone and contacts.
This time round, looking at the way Anthea and Richmond interact with their Mother, who has somehow maintained her cheerful nature after enduring all that negative energy from Lord Darracott. It seems contradictory to me that they (or Anthea at least) are so supportive and protective of her and that they also tease her and did squeeze the information about Hugo out of her at the beginning. A bit like a relationship with a sister more than Mother - child, imo. What do you think?
Mod
Their relationship is very much affected by the fact that they're both quite a bit brighter than she is, isn't it? And they know she's afraid of Grandpapa, while they're not.
She isn't wiser than they are and has no power over them - any decision she made could be overruled at any time by Lord Darracott and she hasn't Lady Aurelia's financial clout or force of personality - so it's hard to see how they could regard her as a parent in the conventional way. They love and respect her, but they can't look up to her: it's a bit like the way the Fancot twins (False Colours) regard their mother.
Mod
By all accounts the family has in the past been plagued with rows and 'brangles' but both these two are clearly above all that, and it's admirable in both of them.
it really is, Jenny, both very likeable characters. and It's unusual for me to like a character who is against "levity"!
Finished and loved it!! Hugo arrived just in time to save them all from the tyranny that Lord Darracott dished out. What a horrible man!!
Mod
He is, isn't he? On the whole, it tends to be the dowagers and matriarchs that are GH's villains, whereas when it's a patriarch he's often something of a caricature (eg Cherry's father and grandfather in Charity Girl or Mr Penicuik in Cotillion) or he's a bit crusty but means well really (Gilly's Uncle Lionel in The Foundling or Desford's father in Charity Girl).
Lord Darracott, though, is totally selfish and a thoroughgoing bully. The world must be organised to suit him, and other people are there for him to control for his own ends. I wonder if he's learned enough to do him any good by the end?
Things are certainly going to change for him: Richmond's joining the army, Anthea's marrying Hugo and taking her mother with her (but do you think Elvira will go?), Hugo may be living at the Dower House but is financially independent of him and can live somewhere else if he chooses (he'll have a hunting box in Leicestershire for one thing as well as a house in London). Who will be left for Lord D to bully? He'll have to take it out on Matthew and poor Vincent - he may even insist on Vincent moving in with him.
There's no way Vincent would come to live at Darracott Place permanently. A lifestyle like his can't be pursued in the country. He has to be in London, at least most of the time!
Jenny wrote: "Teresa wrote: " What a horrible man!!"He is, isn't he? ...."
Bullies like Grandpa Darracott stop bullying when they encounter resistance and when they run out of victims who depend on them. When Hugo cares for Anthea and her family, there's no-one left for him - except Vincent, who continues to depend on his grandfather's presents to pay his debts.
Mod
Well, he wouldn't want to, but a lifestyle like his apparently also can't be pursued without Grandpapa's money! He'd have to get a job - in fact, it's rather surprising that he hasn't got one already, given that his father's got one. In not bringing him up with the expectation of having a job, Matthew must have been counting on Lady Aurelia's money, but doesn't seem to have taught him to live within his means.
Jenny wrote: "Teresa wrote: " What a horrible man!!"He is, isn't he? On the whole, it tends to be the dowagers and matriarchs that are GH's villains, whereas when it's a patriarch he's often something of a car..."
I'm not re-reading this, but I also remember Lord Darracott to be one of the nastiest characters in a Heyer novel. As Jenny says, this is a bit surprising because she usually smooths family tensions in the end, but this time the level of hostility between him and the others stays the same. This is all the more sad if you remember all the losses the family had to suffer.
Instead, Vincent is an example of a supposed "villain" that turns out likeable in the end.
Mod
I'm not so sure. I don't know how much change Lord Darracott is capable of after 80 years of egotism, but he does realise at the end that he's been wrong, about Richmond and about Hugo, and there are signs that his attitude has changed. Whether this translates into an improvement of behaviour remains to be seen, but there is the possibility of it, I think.
I don't know that Vincent has become any more likeable by the end: he has become less hostile towards Hugo and has managed to dredge up some sense of responsibility and concern for Richmond, so there is hope for him. But he'll have to stop bullying Claud and needling Anthea - and perhaps find a purpose in life - before he becomes really likeable.
Yes I still didn't like Vincent at the end. He stopped resenting Hugo, for the moment, but something tells me it won't last. I got the impression Lord Darracott was a beaten man towards the end but I definitely think THAT won't last! However I do think he may be a bit kinder.
Teresa wrote: "Yes I still didn't like Vincent at the end. He stopped resenting Hugo, for the moment, but something tells me it won't last. I got the impression Lord Darracott was a beaten man towards the end but..."Yes, same, although I think the respect for Hugo will last. I think Lord D will tone down slightly but once he gets over the shock of what has just happened he will go back to being a grump!
In answer to Jenny upthread, I think Elvira will go. I don't think Anthea & Hugo would leave her with Lord D.
no, I'm sure Elvira will live with Anthea and Hugo.
Do you think Hugo will live mainly at Darracott after Lord D moves on? He seems like a hands-on type, and might want to oversee all the repairs and then the ongoing workings of the estate. I think Elvira will stay there, but will not be abandoned by her daughter. She might even get to travel more if that amuses her, without the heavy presence of Lord D squashing the life out of her.
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