The Mookse and the Gripes discussion
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Booker Prize for Fiction
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2023 Booker Prize speculation
David wrote: "It's done well in the sense that the prose is decent, but I didn't find it to be a particularly insightful look at any of the miseries. It felt too cliched to me."Yes, but no more cliché than big literary prizewinners The Narrow Road to the Deep North or All the Light We Cannot See.
I thought the prose was a lot more than decent. I was really in awe of the writing in some of these scenes, no matter how conventional they were. It's confusing, and has me a little depressed, that someone with this skill exhibited such a profound lack of imagination.
oof I stopped reading all the light we cannot see a few pages in. so I guess I have to give credit to Geary since I read Juno so quickly.
On your last points Lark I'm a bit conflicted, I sometimes like the idea of something being made to order - certain kinds of crime or fantasy or SF novels for example - in that as a reader there are times when I want something undemanding to read on holiday or similar that offers a predictable kind of satisfaction - as long as it's well executed and there's some sense of inventiveness. But at the same time with literary fiction where the standalone is more the norm then I find the churning out of titles that replicate key elements of more successful ones a bit dispiriting, partly because they're often not as good as what came before, and partly because I wonder about all the more quirky, less predicable work that didn't get published. I imagine there are loads of Irish writers writing about things that have nothing to do with nuns, priests or misery that don't get contracts because it's assumed they're not marketable. Although I suppose that's what makes editorially-led indie publishers such a joy.
That sounds right to me. Well done in terms of poignantly written scenes. I agree with GY, too, that the early scenes in Part 3 were some of the best.
Yahaira wrote: "oof I stopped reading all the light we cannot see a few pages in. so I guess I have to give credit to Geary since I read Juno so quickly."I couldn't stomach that one either, or the 'Narrow Road...' for that matter.
Lark wrote: "David wrote: "It's done well in the sense that the prose is decent, but I didn't find it to be a particularly insightful look at any of the miseries. It felt too cliched to me."Yes, but no more c..."
It's difficult to tell though isn't it, was it the writer or did the agent/publisher steer them in a particular direction - as they tried to do with you - and as a debut novelist they decided to go along with that to get their foot in the door.
it was amazing how quickly I knew that Doerr wasn't for me
Or maybe he did a survey of what sells and tailored his writing to that, I've written stuff to order myself for the extra cash but only non-fiction. I wonder how much difference there is really, except for the lingering notion that fiction authors should always have a specific vision?
Yahaira wrote: "it was amazing how quickly I knew that Doerr wasn't for me"Me too, not sure I made it out of the first chapter, certainly not the second.
Yahaira wrote: "my phone just served this up to mehttps://www.theguardian.com/books/202..."
Okay in that case Lark's point about lack of imagination/insight wins. Although I suppose it's not uncommon for novelists to spin a yarn about their influences, interests, it's standard for promotional purposes and the ability to do that is also appealing to publishers. I didn't realise he'd already written a novel though, so even less excuse for nuns etc
Interesting interview. He uses words like caricature and trope in contrast to his book. I suppose one of the challenges to writing is losing the ability to step back and assess what one has written.
David wrote: "Interesting interview. He uses words like caricature and trope in contrast to his book. I suppose one of the challenges to writing is losing the ability to step back and assess what one has written."The indirect comparison to Chekhov was a step too far for me!
Although I now feel slightly guilty since I don't know him and haven't read the book. And it will probably do very well, it sounds as if it's likely to appeal to book clubs etc And a lot of readers don't necessarily want to explore challenging new territory but still want decent prose. And that's fine.
Ben wrote: "I wonder if we’ll see any comedic books on the list, given Robert Webb’s judging spot…The Bee Sting
Grimmish
The Librarianist
Bandit Queens"
Would love to see Grimmish - not read it yet but loads of people on Twitter I respect have been raving about it for some time
Speak of the devil, I just walked out of the bookstore with Grimmish.
haha David, I thought the same thing. are you sure your book doesn't have tropes and caricature Karl?
The blurb from Coach House mentions questionable jokes.
I just saw an interview describing Soldier, Sailor as very funny and I don't know what to believe anymore!
Yahaira wrote: "I just saw an interview describing Soldier, Sailor as very funny and I don't know what to believe anymore!"I read an extract that was promising although not at all funny, it seems on one level like a cross between Chuck Paluhniak, Nelson Algren and "Raging Bull" but it's also related via a narrator's uncle who's reminiscent of the men in armchairs who routinely appear in early 20th-century ghost stories by writers like M. R. James. It apparently draws heavily on books like Pessoa's The Book of Disquiet which makes sense as it seems very much a conventionally male-centred novel and I always think of Pessoa as the sort of author carried around by serious-seeming, men who're studying philosophy, alternated with Nietzche or Rilke. But that referential aspect also ties into a more metafictional strand in the narrative or so it seems. I'm very tempted to read it personally because it sounds inventive and I found the style in the extract engaging but not sure when I'll get around to it.
Yahaira wrote: "I just saw an interview describing Soldier, Sailor as very funny and I don't know what to believe anymore!"I've seen a couple of reviews say this! That wasn't my experience - I found it more of a 'I am now racked with anxiety, emotionally exhausted, sitting in a corner slowly rocking back and forth and trying not to cry' type of read, but I suppose people interpret things differently! It's very good but oof, never again.
Owen wrote: "Saw Reproduction by Louisa Hall mentioned earlier in the thread as likely just outside the eligibility window. Is that correct? All the bookshops I can see list the publication date as 22nd June, s..."I agree with you. It’s eligible and in fact I am reading it now but there must have been a view it was not at one stage and I noted it did not seem to be on the Listopia until I added it earlier today.
Owen wrote: "Yahaira wrote: "I just saw an interview describing Soldier, Sailor as very funny and I don't know what to believe anymore!"I've seen a couple of reviews say this! That wasn't my experience - I fo..."
Owen we agree again. It has lots of emotions it evokes or could be used to describe it - very funny would be a long way down my list.
Ben wrote: "I wonder if we’ll see any comedic books on the list, given Robert Webb’s judging spot…The Bee Sting
Grimmish
The Librarianist
Bandit Queens"
Webb is a Cambridge English Literature graduate so might be looking wider and anyway is literary fiction really ever funny when compared to a TV sketch show say or a good stand up comedian.
I liked the last two of the books above but neither even elicited a mild chuckle as far as I can recall.
Lark wrote: "David wrote: "It's done well in the sense that the prose is decent, but I didn't find it to be a particularly insightful look at any of the miseries. It felt too cliched to me."Yes, but no more c..."
I would be in the “decent” camp.
Tellingly for me I did not highlight any passages as I read as examples of great sentences of paras - in the Lorrie Moore despite its unevenness I was highlighting stuff every page or so. And when I look at the Geary and what others have highlighted (which you can see a bit on Kindle versions) I am thinking each time “ok it’s decently fine but nothing exceptional”.
this is from Paul Murray (the Bee Sting)Claire Kilroy’s new book, Soldier Sailor, is about a woman in the early months of motherhood when everything has been turned upside down. It’s very, very funny. She’s got this wildly unhelpful husband – one of the great husbands in literature, I think.
Alwynne wrote: "Yahaira wrote: "I just saw an interview describing Soldier, Sailor as very funny and I don't know what to believe anymore!"I read an extract that was promising although not at all funny, it seems..."
For a second I thought you were talking about Soldier sailor. I was so confused lol. Grimmage sounds interesting but I don't know about all the boxing.
Gumble's Yard - Golden Reviewer wrote: "Lark wrote: "David wrote: "It's done well in the sense that the prose is decent, but I didn't find it to be a particularly insightful look at any of the miseries. It felt too cliched to me."Yes, ..."
That's one of the reasons I was so disappointed in the Moore, such great writing but for what?
Gumble's Yard - Golden Reviewer wrote: "Ben wrote: "I wonder if we’ll see any comedic books on the list, given Robert Webb’s judging spot…The Bee Sting
Grimmish
The Librarianist
Bandit Queens"
Webb is a Cambridge English Literature gr..."
Definitely lowering my definition of 'comedy' to account for medium! I just wonder if Webb might be interested some titles that draw a smirk rather than a tear.
I believe he's a big fan of both The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy and Graham Swift's Waterland, so it could go either way...
Yahaira wrote: "this is from Paul Murray (the Bee Sting)Claire Kilroy’s new book, Soldier Sailor, is about a woman in the early months of motherhood when everything has been turned upside down. It’s very, very f..."
To be fair, I did find plenty of the narrator's observations amusing. But very much sentence-level waves of humour amidst an overall sea of anxiety.
Yahaira wrote: "Alwynne wrote: "Yahaira wrote: "I just saw an interview describing Soldier, Sailor as very funny and I don't know what to believe anymore!"I read an extract that was promising although not at all..."
Sorry Yahaira pressed the wrong reply button was responding to your earlier question!
I haven't read it yet, since it's been compared a few times to die, my love and that was almost too much for me. it's good to know that there is some humor!
no problem, I figured it out right away :) I'll have to add both books to my tbr
I thought Soldier Sailor was hilarious.
Grimmish is a lot of fun. It's taking all the self-restraint I can muster to set it aside for The New Life.
David wrote: "Grimmish is a lot of fun. It's taking all the self-restraint I can muster to set it aside for The New Life."I'll be interested to see what you make of the Crewe.
I feel like I've been down on a lot of contenders, but on the other hand I loved The MANIAC. RC and GY have given it 4 stars - and I agree the last section is the weakest. But for me, even the last section is 4 stars, with the bulk of the book a solid 5. It may not be as innovative as When We Cease, but the themes are more fully developed here.
As a piece of fiction writing the last section really can’t get any stars from me - it’s a compilation of Wired feature articles.
That didn’t bother me because it’s nonfiction. But you’re right that it’s overlong. A few pages as an epilogue would have sufficed.
I cannot get to give 5 stars as a novel when that straight (and already feeling dated given what has happened this year and the book has not been published) non-fiction section is a quarter of the book.
Back to Juno - what’s with the whole St Francis thing - is that just an attempt to attract some A Little Life fans
And what’s with the title. Presumably a blatant attempt to get fans of the movie to assume it’s a sequel.
All the more reason for me not to read it, always think of that film as thinly-veiled propaganda for the forced-birther movement.
Elliot Page was very good though and he thoroughly deserved the Best Actress nomination. His new book Pageboy has had mixed reviews but the interviews around it have been fascinating to read.
Lark’s review of Juno Loves Leggs is the pithiest: “It’s gorgeously written. I wish I hadn’t read it.”
I had assumed St. Francis was a reference to the patron saint of rescuing the lost, or something like that, but that doesn't seem to be the case after some googling.
Isn’t St Francis the Saint of animals?
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The Mookse and the Gripes
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This, definitely—if I ever have another editor tell me I should try very hard to write more like Otessa Moshfegh then I don’t know..."
I can only imagine how incredibly frustrating it must be to have to contend with that as a writer who has her own specific vision. I can see why it's so attractive to publishers though it's a version of a franchise or series, a possibility of piggy-backing onto other successful titles and hoping that that will ensure decent sales. And for a debut novelist is possibly a way to get published because they can point to their relevance to a market. Although I wonder how well it works in practice for standalone novels? I assume given the success of Milkman, Claire Foster's work etc that publishers think this one stands a chance of succeeding as a debut by appealing to the readership for those kinds of novels, and the unique selling point for Juno is presumably the queer spin?