The Mookse and the Gripes discussion
note: This topic has been closed to new comments.
Booker Prize for Fiction
>
2022 Booker Prize longlist discussion
I think your earlier comment about unifying themes is spot on. The primary theme I see is that the longlist books are largely about countries divided. Glory, The Colony, and The Trees are perhaps the best examples of that theme and are written by highly respected authors. Maps carries that theme to a personal level and is one of the concept books that actually works on the longlist.
I'll hedge a bit to say I would be surprised if more than one of those four misses the shortlist.
David wrote: "I think your earlier comment about unifying themes is spot on. The primary theme I see is that the longlist books are largely about countries divided. Glory, The Colony, and The Trees are perhaps t..."In his remarks when the longlist was released, Neil MacGregor said that there were two larger themes expressed in the 13 books: the "extent to which individual lives are shaped and determined by long historical processes" and "the elusive nature of truth: not in the sense that we live in a post-truth world, but in demonstrating the persistence, energy and skepticism required to get as near as is possible to truth, and so to a proper understanding, whether of one particular person, or of a nation-destroying civil war."
Cindy wrote: "In his remarks when the longlist was released, Neil MacGregor said that there were two larger themes expressed in the 13 books: the "extent to which individual lives are shaped and determined by long historical processes" and "the elusive nature of truth: not in the sense that we live in a post-truth world, but in demonstrating the persistence, energy and skepticism required to get as near as is possible to truth, and so to a proper understanding, whether of one particular person, or of a nation-destroying civil war."Well I love those concepts, although I'm going to have to think awhile to see how most of the books fit the second theme.
David, I'd be happy, and wouldn't be surprised at all, to see your four, although I'd probably switch out Glory (which I DNF'd, much as I loved what she was trying to do) and I'd maybe add After Sappho or Seven Moons...I haven't read either yet, but they're the titles that are intriguing me most.
On the second here is my take FWIW Trust and Case Study are pretty explicitly about the idea of truth/fiction/story telling
Glory, Booth, Seven Moons, The Colony
Are very directly about civil wars (or their aftermath)
And I think you can add without much of a stretch at all
Trees - lynching was to a large extent a hangover from the bitterness of the side that lost a civil war
Small Things Like These also given it’s about Ireland’s search for an identity after (Audrey Magee’s term) switching from English to Vatican
Maps is about a civil war raging inside an individual body
Even Oh William is about Lucy trying to unravel the “mystery” that her ex husband remains to her
Less sure on
Treacle Walker
After Sappho
Nightcrawling
This makes sense GY. I would say After Sappho pretty clearly relates to the second theme. Nightcrawling has elements of the first theme, but more the downstream effects. I haven't read Treacle Walker.
I was reading the Booker Prize accounts and came across this in their section on how they fulfil their charitable purposes to “promote the art of literature” for public benefit by running a prize. So these discussions are all part of that purpose!
“The Booker prizes are signposts for the public to excellence in contemporary fiction. They provoke fierce debate, some controversy, and great acclaim. Discussions as to what has been induded and what has been excluded from longlists, shortlists and in selecling winners are an important stimulus to foster a literate social and cultural environment”
That makes a lot it sense and it certainly does that as a prize.Can we get a donation to run the forum?
Do they explain how they deal with the private benefit part of the prize. I can see it in inevitable and so they could argue is incidental but I am surprised they make such a thing of the life changing nature of winning and the huge sales increases.
Not sure but under their Risk Assessment they mention the failure of the judges to respect the rules of the prize risking reputations damage and the mitigating actions they took as a result after 2019!!
I agree with that risk assessment! I don’t want to restart that debate, but I’m glad to see the Booker is aware of the problems of 2019.If being a signpost for public discourse is the purpose I’d agree they are achieving their purpose. It’s been said here before that discussions of the books that weren’t nominated are as important as discussions of books that were.
I'm detecting a third theme, perhaps less prominent than the other two: An interest in local narrative that prioritizes diction and other artistic choices that speak to/for a particular community even if it is at the expense of universal understanding.The two works that really fit this are Glory and Treacle Walker. Perhaps there are elements of this theme elsewhere - for example The Seven Moons of Maali Almeida (even in its "revised" edition).
I agree on one level and Seven Moons remains I think still very Sri Lanka specific But if I can be a little provocative I also think your choice of three non US books also seems to proves the point of the apparent assumption of universality of references and themes in US fiction, that Alywnne perceptively posted on the Treacle Walker chat.
I see the US books on this list as particularly local.
I spent quite a bit of the first chapter of Trees on Google - shotgun houses, Sam’s club, Piggly Wiggly, Guns and Ammo (I assumed it was satire but it seems not) and then the whole story of Emmett Till which was entirely new to me.
And Booth is not about the 19th century President of one country (one already covered in a recent Booker winner some way beyond my historical interest), not even about his assassin (Booth to me in a historical context means William Booth) but the family of his assassin.
And Trust is pretty well entirely about American 1920s capitalism
Whereas by contrast Eva has already posted that Glory has a pan African resonance not just Zimbabwean.
Fair points GY and I don't disagree. Perhaps a better way to express it would be to say novels (Glory, Treacle Walker, and The Seven Moons of Maali Almeida) that are written to/for a community that is outside the supposed mainstream reading public (sort of the opposite of what Everett was doing with The Trees)."supposed" being one of the operative words above
Gumble's Yard - Golden Reviewer wrote: "the whole story of Emmett Till which was entirely new to me"Emmett Till might be considered the George Floyd of the Civil Rights Movement of the 1960's, even though he was murdered in 1955.
I do think GY that you are right about how US-centric the books from the US are. And I'd say that Glory has an even broader resonance than Africa. Putting color aside, parts of it resonated for me with the history of Russia/Soviet Union, Iran, and other places with dictatorships and revolutions.
Mamie Till’s decision to show the nation what was done to Emmett was what made the nation pay attention to racial violence and played an important role in starting the Civil Rights Movement. I disagree that the US stories aren’t universal because readers outside the US had to look up Piggly Wiggly and shotgun houses. If not for But-I-thought most of us wouldn’t have fully understood the land ownership situation in South Africa, but we are all familiar with racism, segregation, and Apartheid. The Fortune Men was set in Wales about an injustice most of us outside the UK hadn’t heard of, but we all understand racial injustice. Capitalism is lethal no matter where it’s worshipped. And the point of The Trees is how does one deal with injustice when laws don’t work, that question is not unique to the US.
One’s own ignorance about other cultures, historical episodes, or local references doesn’t mean the story can’t be universally understood, it just mean we should all be grateful for the internet! We read to learn about the world. I can’t think of a Booker book I’ve read that didn’t require me to learn more about the setting, the people, the events of that country.
GY, I know you’ve had a special interest in S Africa and Apartheid, I’m surprised you didn’t come across people like Rosa Parks, Emmett Till, Medgar Evers in your reading since both S Africa and the southern states had codified racial segregation into laws. Not that I know any names from S Africa’s fight for equality other than Nelson Mandela and Bishop Tutu. I just thought maybe the US and S Africa would have been compared or contrasted in some of your reading.
It’s great that After Sappho is introducing so many to heroics women and it’s wonderful that The Trees might lead people to learn about the heroes of the US Civil Rights battles, including Emmett Till’s uncle, Reverend Wright, who testified at Emmett Till’s trial and pointed at Bryant knowing he would most likely be killed for testifying and of course Mamie Till.
I don’t disagree Wendy but my point was an antithetical one in response to David original post listing three books and saying they had a local narrative which hampered universal understanding (with all examples non-US); and Alwynne’s was similarly in response to comments about the “accessibility” of Treacle Walker (a book using UK slang and traditions on a UK book prize)
Having just read the first chapter of the Trees on line * it made a lot less sense to me than the first chapter of Treacle Walker.* the Booker incidentally has put the first chapter of each book on their website which is a good way to sample the prose and style of those one is uncertain about
I can see where both Wendy and Gumble are coming from, but there are a number of instances where I'm probably leaning towards Gumble but tempered with Wendy! I would associate the name Booth with the Sally army too. And although I'm interested in American history no more so than Chinese, Korean, French etc And usually in broad strokes or in relation to particular topics like race or feminism or queer history or geopolitical issues. So a novel about John Willkes Booth's family seem to me fairly specialist and not that immediately relevant to me as a non-American. So I would also see it as fairly 'local'. In fact in many ways I find Korean, Chinese and Japanese culture makes more sense to me than elements of American - even though we notionally speak the same language.
If I were thinking about apartheid I'd be more likely to view it in terms of British and/or European colonialism than American history - a high proportion of white South Africans are the descendants of British settlers during the age of empire. I'd also think about challenges to apartheid in relation to a particular history of radical politics thinking of the links between a number of activists and the Communist Party like Ruth First and Joe Slovo - which in turn links back to a culture of radicalism in England. Something I think likely to be absent in the American context given the legacy of McCarthyism. I'd also probably view it in relation to the colour bar in England, Enoch Powell and 'Rivers of Blood' etc
I have heard of Evers, Till etc but that's because I've read a lot of classic/vintage work by Black authors and I'm also interested in the Human Rights and Civil Rights movements in various contexts. Also have a friend whose family are big Dylan fans and of course his early songs covered Till etc. Also unlike Gumble I've watched a lot of films that cover this area plus writers like Eula Biss on lynching.
So there are things I think that are more or less culturally specific in a number of these narratives, even if we may all be able to find points of interest in them. And so it seems to me that the American titles Gumble singled out are as culture-bound as the Garner just in a slightly different way. But I also agree with Wendy that broader concerns about justice etc can offer a way into certain texts. But I think we probably all agree on that.
Also like Paul I read the beginning of the Garner and felt that there were things that were instantly recognisable in a way I didn't with the beginning of The Trees. But I'm not that keen on the style of that one so far. Also if you grew up with the BBC repeats of Dad's Army, Steptoe etc means that rag and bone men, words like ticketty-boo are familiar across a number of age ranges, even now as classic BBC drama/comedy has a cult following these days.
Agree with all of this. My point with the three novels (Glory, Treacle, Moons) was not that they were less intelligible or more culture-specific than the American titles. In the mainstream publishing world where US / London cultural references are assumed to be shared and therefore universal, it is to some extent going against the grain to publish a work that is specific to a culture that is outside the so-called mainstream. And although it's one thing for Glory, Treacle, and Moons to be published, it's a fantastic recognition for them to be longlisted for the Booker prize.Edit to add: My observation was meant as a compliment to the judges for picking those books, not a slight against the authors for writing unintelligible works (two of which I still haven't read).
Stephen Lawrence would be a good benchmark for me on Emmett Till - would a novel inspired by him immediately get name recognition with US / non-UK readers? Or would people be reaching for google?
David wrote: "Agree with all of this. My point with the three novels (Glory, Treacle, Moons) was not that they were less intelligible or more culture-specific than the American titles. In the mainstream publishi..."Yes but I wonder how much it's an even trade? I think after WW2 and the deliberate drive to make American culture have some sort of universal standing - similar to the efforts of the British Council earlier - and the dominance of Hollywood and later HBO, and other areas of media, there remains an assumption that American equals universal - not that that's what I think you're saying - and other countries are peripheral, even though America's prominence is in decline culturally and otherwise.
Paul wrote: "* the Booker incidentally has put the first chapter of each book on their website which is a good way to sample the prose and style of those one is uncertain about"I'm not able to find this. Perhaps my US-based IP address is triggering different options.
Alwynne wrote: Yes but I wonder how much it's an even trade?"I feel like I keep repeating myself and in the process making my point more and more obscure.
I agree 100% that it's not an even trade and I don't at all buy into the assumption that American culture equals universal. That is why I am complimenting the judges in choosing works that are most intelligible to cultures outside the supposed mainstream.
This is the link see if it works David, do you not get a page telling you the content's not available in your region? That's what I get now with some US sites.https://thebookerprizes.com/extracts-...
Is there a term that describes an online conversation where we all agree, but we say it in different ways so we think we are disagreeing? I feel like that's what we are doing :)Still a worthwhile conversation though - especially the Stephen Lawrence / Emmett Till piece.
David wrote: "Agree with all of this. My point with the three novels (Glory, Treacle, Moons) was not that they were less intelligible or more culture-specific than the American titles. In the mainstream publishi..."Didn't come across as a slight David, not to me anyway.
Alwynne wrote: "This is the link see if it works David, do you not get a page telling you the content's not available in your region? That's what I get now with some US sites.https://thebookerprizes.com/extracts..."
Yes! That works. I see nine of the books have excerpts available.
David wrote: "Alwynne wrote: Yes but I wonder how much it's an even trade?"I feel like I keep repeating myself and in the process making my point more and more obscure.
I agree 100% that it's not an even trad..."
I'm a bit confused too, as I was initially and largely responding to the discussion between Wendy and GY, not to your points other than very indirectly!
BUT I would think of a novel like Booth as outside the mainstream, other than in the US. And more likely here to appeal to people interested in American history than general readers of literary fiction. Edit: But part of the confusion is that I also wouldn't see Garner as outside the mainstream in the UK as he's a very well-respected, well-connected figure here, been awarded an OBE etc An influence on a wide range of writers, had his work adapted for TV and radio, on university reading lists for fantasy-related/folklore modules, been the subject of documentaries etc I've even supervised several dissertations that referred to or revolved around his work.
What a fascinating discussion this is!One thing I want to say about The Trees: I appreciate completely the local references in the book and the specific focus on a type of racism that seems particular to the US. But as I believe has already been pointed out, there is a set of retributive acts that happen in Elliott's novel that stem from racism against Asians rather than Blacks, and I think the general concept of the desire for revenge for detestable racist acts is a universal one, and one that probably all of us can understand based on actions that have taken place in our own countries.
In that sense, the moral dilemma that is the framing for the end of the novel feels very universal to me.
Alwynne wrote: "BUT I would think of a novel like Booth as outside the mainstream, other than in the US. And more likely here to appeal to people interested in American history than general readers of literary fic..."Just to agree with everyone, I think the thing that makes me ask these questions is that the white characters in The Trees are so very Southern, which makes the events easier to dismiss as not being part of one's personal history. Books must be more powerful if you imagine your ancestors as part of the story. I do think The Trees would echo through much of the world (we're not the only country that had lynching), but it must be more impactful for a US audience because it's so US-focused. I'm sure would be even more impactful to people from the South who see echoes of these sorts of white people every day.
With that said, I do think readers can relate to The Trees regardless of where they're from. I'm so, so glad it's made the longlist, and would be happy if it won. Everett has been deserving of more attention for many years, and more people need to sit with Damian's list of names.
I think we all agree and I hope someone finds the word David is looking for when people largely agree, but keep discussing as if there is disagreement. I think part of the issue for some is the very British Garner novel makes sense in a British prize, whereas The Trees and Booth are American stories, but that is to be expected now that the prize is open to American writers, which I think most of us agree wasn’t necessary.
I call it a "Mookse and Gripes" discussion!
Meinungsverschiedenheiteinverstanden.Perhaps.
Meinungsverschiedenundzustimmenheitverstanden? :-)The closest thing I can think of is "preaching to the choir", but even that doesn't get at it.
At our house we call it being "in violent agreement."
Ha! I love that Joy. I was thinking the same thing, Paul, this Mookse and the Gripes, if we all agree we have to debate why we agree. In violent agreement makes sense.
The first set of odds are up. Not great value (all but one of the books are shorter than 12-1 ought to be the average odds) and not that strong a distinction between the books but for what it’s worth they have the books in order - most likely to win first - as:Treacle Walker
Oh William
Glory
Maps of
The Colony
Case Study, Booth, Small Things (tied)
Nightcrawling, Trees, Trust (tied)
Seven Moons
After Sappho
I am finally jumping into the Booker list--the only title I have read is Small Things, which I would be overjoyed to see make it to the short list. Next up will be Treacle Walker--I read Garner's memoir about his childhood (Where Shall We Run To?) last year and loved it. I realize that this one will be a very different reading experience. Although I have read most of Strout's previous novels over the years, I seem to be battling a slight familiar-author fatigue, and I find myself mildly resistant to reading Oh William. (That said, she is a skilled writer, and I expect that I will probably eat my words and love it once I pick it back up.)
Looking forward to hearing your views as you go through the list Danielle.
Somewhat off topic, I know, but I really hate the new beta-bookpage. (Web version of goodreads for your computer / app didnt change).
Britta wrote: "Somewhat off topic, I know, but I really hate the new beta-bookpage. (Web version of goodreads for your computer / app didnt change)."I hate it too.
As I definitely won't be reading Booth, Treacle Walker, Maps of our Spectacular Bodies, Nightcrawling and Oh William!, and since I plan to read Glory and Trust if shortlisted, I have to say that of those that I have read so far The Seven Moons of Maali Almeida is the best. Except for the tile and the cover - they shouldn't have changed the title and the cover should've been much better and much more somber. I feel as if the changed title and the cover are softening up what the book's about and it's about horrible, horrible things.
Do you put up rankings, endrju? I know The Trees was another favorite of yours.I'm still eager to read Seven Moons / Chats With the Dead. It's the only one I haven't gotten to yet.
I liked The Colony too. Both it and The Trees got 4 stars from me. I guess I'd give The Trees precedence over The Colony given that I'm more interested in the topics it raises through what I read of Afropessimism and Black trans theory.
endrju wrote: "of those that I have read so far The Seven Moons of Maali Almeida is the best"Great to hear, my copy is on the way from Blackwells, looking forward to reading it!
endrju wrote: "it's about horrible, horrible things."
😶
The Booker Prize has put up a “which Booker book should you read” quizhttps://thebookerprizes.com/the-booke...
Twelve questions some quite interesting eg about whether you like indie presses, innovation in literature, and my favourite “Did you spend any time reading “Americans dominate the Booker longlist articles” after this year’s Booker dozen was announced”!
What do people get?
I got Treacle Walker which is indeed my favourite book on the list.
This topic has been frozen by the moderator. No new comments can be posted.
The Mookse and the Gripes
Books mentioned in this topic
Oh William! (other topics)Glory (other topics)
The Seven Moons of Maali Almeida (other topics)
The Trees (other topics)
Small Things Like These (other topics)
More...
Authors mentioned in this topic
Claire Keegan (other topics)NoViolet Bulawayo (other topics)
Shehan Karunatilaka (other topics)
Percival Everett (other topics)
Elizabeth Strout (other topics)
More...
What is your logic (not that any book you list would surprise me at all)