Goodreads Authors/Readers discussion
General Fiction
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Should Books Have A Warning/Rating System?
Jim wrote: "Rating formulas are entirely subjective, whether they be applied to books, movies, or TV programs. A Parental Guidance - PG rating today may have been rated Adults Only just 2 decades ago.
There w..."
I wholly agree with you on that, Jim. My beef is with those who wish that stories be sanitized (or warned against) because those stories don't measure up to their levels of sensitivity to specific categories, to the detriment of the story's realism. By realism, I don't mean that you need to insert a lot of profanities/sexual activity descriptions/gore/violence in them to make them realistic. I agree that decent restraint applies to a point. However, trying to write a, say, crime drama or war story, while actively avoiding the use of any profanities or sexual descriptions would be completely unrealistic. To show restraint in using controversial words/situations is one thing. To completely refuse to read a story because it doesn't adhere to your own strict guidelines is the mark of a closed mind to me.
There w..."
I wholly agree with you on that, Jim. My beef is with those who wish that stories be sanitized (or warned against) because those stories don't measure up to their levels of sensitivity to specific categories, to the detriment of the story's realism. By realism, I don't mean that you need to insert a lot of profanities/sexual activity descriptions/gore/violence in them to make them realistic. I agree that decent restraint applies to a point. However, trying to write a, say, crime drama or war story, while actively avoiding the use of any profanities or sexual descriptions would be completely unrealistic. To show restraint in using controversial words/situations is one thing. To completely refuse to read a story because it doesn't adhere to your own strict guidelines is the mark of a closed mind to me.
A warning system on books will only make people more likely to read them. Everybody wants what that cannot have. Isn't that how fictions was invented?
Lester wrote: "A warning system on books will only make people more likely to read them. Everybody wants what that cannot have. Isn't that how fictions was invented?"A lot of authors are looking for people to read, rate and review their book. Why not let readers know what to expect to see in their book? Some readers don’t like wasting their money and they will voice their feelings in their rating and/or review.
Arch wrote: " A lot of authors are looking for people to read, rate and review their book. Why not let readers know what to expect to see in their book? Some readers don’t like wasting their money and they will voice their feelings in their rating and/or review."
Arch, your opinion about readers wishes/likes is based on a false premise. You really think that readers who want to read, say, a crime drama, a war story or a historical fiction story happening in distant past centuries (Middle Ages, Antiquity) truly expect not to see the use of at least some profanity, violence or sexual content in those kinds of stories? My stories (mostly SFF, fictional wars and historical fiction, plus a few erotica and spy stories) have had a total of hundreds of readers reviews and none contained complaints about excessive profanity/sexual content/violence. Why? Because they were mature and realistic enough to know that, when you buy those categories of books, then there are certain things you have to expect to read about. The only warning I put in my books is one warning if the content is appropriate or not for children, which by itself should be enough to advise adult readers what to expect.
Arch, your opinion about readers wishes/likes is based on a false premise. You really think that readers who want to read, say, a crime drama, a war story or a historical fiction story happening in distant past centuries (Middle Ages, Antiquity) truly expect not to see the use of at least some profanity, violence or sexual content in those kinds of stories? My stories (mostly SFF, fictional wars and historical fiction, plus a few erotica and spy stories) have had a total of hundreds of readers reviews and none contained complaints about excessive profanity/sexual content/violence. Why? Because they were mature and realistic enough to know that, when you buy those categories of books, then there are certain things you have to expect to read about. The only warning I put in my books is one warning if the content is appropriate or not for children, which by itself should be enough to advise adult readers what to expect.
It is scary for every creative person to be threatened by censorship. I know I fear the return of such laws. I mean, has anyone seen the 2015 movie Trumbo? Or what happened to Charlie Chaplin? Terrifying.I would never, ever suggest censorship.
As a movie fan, I would just like to see the same kind of warnings on books that I have come to rely on for movies. Of course, those warnings aren't always right. I once watched a movie that was rated R and had many weighty warnings...we took a chance and discovered a film that should have had a PG-13 rating with a handful of parental guidance. I'd seem worse on television. The rating felt a bit based on prejudice because the storyline foundation was ethnic. So I can imagine the worry about a rating system for books.
Maybe some type of volunteer rating system???? I didn't know, trying to weigh this issue from a writer's and reader's prospective is complicated...
P.S.
Dale Lehman, "A story is not "real life." It's a crafted illusion"
I like that...
Ann wrote: "It is scary for every creative person to be threatened by censorship. I know I fear the return of such laws."How having warnings/rating system on books, censorship?
A lot of authors are trying to get people to read their books. If an author’s book have rape in it and he or she is promoting their book on here or anywhere else, should they warn readers about the rape? A reader might be a rape victim, do you think they would want to read about rape?
Arch, I totally agree. It took nearly two weeks for me to settle my nerves after that latest Batman movie. I never want my work to (accidentally) cause that kind of distress to someone.
I can also understand about why writers would be worried about a rating system... worried that such a warning system could be abused and taken too far.
Like I noted, trying to weigh this issue from a writer's and reader's prospective is complicated...
I do want a warning system...maybe one created by readers???? No rules or laws...except for truthfulness. Maybe an "optional" part of the review process.
Arch wrote: "Ann wrote: "It is scary for every creative person to be threatened by censorship. I know I fear the return of such laws."How having warnings/rating system on books, censorship?
A lot of authors ..."
Hello Arch! Well my first novel includes brief abuse, also offering healing through the tale, but I decided to include a warning to leave people a choice of passing that chapter. I hope that helps! Have a great day! Warmly, Mahayana
Mahayana wrote: "Hello Arch! Well my first novel includes brief abuse, also offering healing through the tale, but I decided to include a warning to leave people a choice of passing that chapter. I hope that helps! Have a great day! Warmly, Mahayana "It should help someone, if they decides to read your book.
Ann wrote: "Dale Lehman, "A story is not "real life." It's a crafted illusion"I like that..."
Thank you!
Regarding rating systems, they aren't censorship in most cases. Generally they are adopted voluntarily by industries or portions thereof to provide some kind of guidance to content for people who want it. They don't determine what can or can't be included in the content. Their accuracy and utility can be debated, of course, but they aren't usually a form of censorship.
Dale wrote: "Regarding rating systems, they aren't censorship in most cases. Generally they are adopt..."Hi Dale Lehman, true. That's exactly what readers like Arch and I would like to see more on book descriptions. Just a note of what to expect. I believe that it's all a bit more of a complicated request than I ever realized...
Ann wrote: "I believe that it's all a bit more of a complicated request than I ever realized..."Yeah, that's usually the case with simple suggestions. ;-)
Usually you can tell from the cover or title what kind of book it's going to be and you can choose to buy it or not. I think the only warning a book need is if it is errotic but the cover/title doesn't suggest it. Nor do I think that obsenity is actually needed. Most people I know don't speak with a swear word in every other word. Yes they swear of they drop something on their foot etc, but it's not everyday language. I once read a quote from a famous author (can't remember who) that said people only swear because they are not educated enough to use the English language. I don't think that applies today, but people can still communicate without foul language blotting their conversation.
Catherine wrote: "Usually you can tell from the cover or title what kind of book it's going to be and you can choose to buy it or not. I think the only warning a book need is if it is errotic but the cover/title doesn't suggest it."Sometimes covers give clues, but they really don't address all the issues. Romance covers have a code (so I'm told) that let you gauge the level of "heat" without opening the book. But other genres, not so much. Covers do signal genre and possibly the level of action/adventure, but not the level of violence (which some people hold is a more serious issue than sexual content) or what have come to be known as "triggers" that might cause distress for people suffering from abuse or other issues.
I was just pondering this the other day. I'll pick up a book, and if it contains too much of something I don't want to deal with, I'll either skip over the "troubling" parts or toss the book out. (For example, I've grown really tired of excessive and unnecessary obscenity and regularly "blip" over it.)
But for some people, that's not a good option. The point of a warning is to let consumers know that the content might be an issue for some people, so potential readers/viewers can make their own decision on whether or not to proceed. It's neither censorship nor an attempt to steer people away from the material. It's just information to help consumers make decisions.
I know you aren't saying this, but I've heard some people opine that warnings aren't necessary because we're able to make our own decisions. But that's exactly what warnings are for. It's ridiculous to maintain that consumers don't need content warnings to steer them away from material they find objectionable or troubling, because they can view the material themselves and make up their own minds to...not view the material. Riiiiight...
I believe that the only valid reason to put a warning is to warn off children and young teenagers from contents which would be inappropriate for them. As for adults, where would we stop with warnings about specific 'triggers'? What may appear quite acceptable to some could be considered 'triggers' for others. Just looking at the present state of social debate/disputes in the USA shows that the degree of tolerance/intolerance to certain matters/words vary widely, depending on who you are talking to. Putting a generic warning is feasible but putting warnings about every possible 'trigger' is simply impractical/unrealistic. In my own books, I usually put a general warning along the following lines: WARNING: THIS BOOKS CONTAINS DEPICTIONS OF WAR, VIOLENCE, MATURE LANGUAGE AND SEXUAL CONTENT UNSUITABLE FOR CHILDREN. I believe that such a warning is sufficient to cover most subjects.
Michel wrote: "I believe that the only valid reason to put a warning is to warn off children and young teenagers from contents which would be inappropriate for them. As for adults, where would we stop with warnings about specific 'triggers'? What may appear quite acceptable to some could be considered 'triggers' for others.”Michel, please don’t take this the wrong way, but didn’t you say you write for fun and that you don’t write for money? For ten years you have been writing and posting your stories to Free-ebooks.net for free. Whoever owns free-ebooks.net are getting paid off your books. Why aren’t you writing to sell books? Writing free stuff and publishing work for money are in two different ball parks. Start selling your books and see how people will speak up for their money over your books.
A good writer can write a good story without a cuss word. A good writer can write a good story without sex.
Arch wrote: "A good writer can write a good story without a cuss word. A good writer can write a good story without sex."
You can't write a war/military-related story in a realistic way with characters who never curse: it would show a completely unrealistic portrayal of war. I know: I served for 32 years, including in active war theaters. I myself rarely use profanities but soldiers at war live through too much stress not to let out outbursts from time to time.
You can't write a war/military-related story in a realistic way with characters who never curse: it would show a completely unrealistic portrayal of war. I know: I served for 32 years, including in active war theaters. I myself rarely use profanities but soldiers at war live through too much stress not to let out outbursts from time to time.
Michel wrote: "You can't write a war/military-related story in a realistic way with characters who never curse: it would show a completely unrealistic portrayal of war. I know: I served for 32 years, including in active war theaters. I myself rarely use profanities but soldiers at war live through too much stress not to let out outbursts from time to time. "Can you honestly say without a shadow of a doubt that every man you’ve served with cussed?
I've been following this thread for awhile. I don't think books need warning/rating systems would be a tendency to rate books on the such ratings rather than the writing. However, I do appreciate those sites that rate them and list triggers anyway. It would be great if readers who are looking out for these things and certain triggers could use them. Otherwise, there is no point. IMO, the real problem with rating/warning systems for books, especially, is that it's so subjective. My first collection of short stories is good example. It's generally considered dark fiction but not dark enough to market it as such, generally because the subject matter is dark but the treatment is consistent with a PG rating (and only one very minor cuss word: damned). Yet, some readers think it's very dark; one even called it morbid, which few people would.
So, the real measure of what we're talking about isn't whether or not how the book rates on such a scale but whether it's approbate to the story. I've come across graphic moments in books that made sense and work, and others where it doesn't make sense or work. When it works, I couldn't imagine the book without it, even if I might not have picked up book knowing what was in it. Conversely, there are plenty of times when I thought it was gratuitous, detracting from the story. Ergo, it's not content as much as the appropriateness of such content given the work.
Arch wrote: "Michel wrote: "You can't write a war/military-related story in a realistic way with characters who never curse: it would show a completely unrealistic portrayal of war. I know: I served for 32 year..."I do not believe that 100% of the individuals that make up any group act and/or speak exactly alike. That said; based upon my personal experience as a U.S. Marine, including a 13-month combat tour in Vietnam, I would estimate that 85% of the Marines with whom I associated injected profanity into their conversations on a regular basis.
During Boot Camp at Parris Island, South Carolina, all three Drill Instructors assigned to our platoon somehow managed to inject the 'F'-bomb in almost every sentence and even, believe it or not, mid-word - as in "Fan-f---ing-tastic!"
Arch wrote: "Can you honestly say without a shadow of a doubt that every man you’ve served with cussed?"
Yes! However, some will rarely curse (often out of fear during combat), while others are quite foul-mouthed. Even civilians caught in the middle of a battle zone (urban fighting, Beirut, 1982) are liable to curse out of stress/fear.
Yes! However, some will rarely curse (often out of fear during combat), while others are quite foul-mouthed. Even civilians caught in the middle of a battle zone (urban fighting, Beirut, 1982) are liable to curse out of stress/fear.
There is something wrong, when a hero or heroine or both have a very small vocabulary and the only way they can express themselves is by cussing. Some people think that cussing is a way of life; it’s normal. I wonder how they feel about children cussing. Is that normal. I’ve heard children cuss. In some movies, they even have children cussing. Is that supposed to be normal? How about parents cussing their children out. Is that supposed to be okay? That’s normal to a lot of people.I know that some people cuss, even fictional characters. I’m not saying that I haven’t seen a cuss word in a book. Even, when I see one or two, I don’t like it. My problem with cussing in a book is when every time a person talk, cuss words comes out their mouth. I have started a book, where from the first page, the hero cussed and like every time he said something, a cuss word came out. I didn’t finished that book. Stop at the beginning. I’ve read a book, where the heroine was a curser. Didn’t finished that book.
I don’t think it would hurt an author to warn if their character is a curser. It would save money. I’m telling you, people’s money will always come before an author.
Jim wrote: "I do not believe that 100% of the individuals that make up any group act and/or speak exactly alike. That said; based upon my personal experience as a U.S. Marine, including a 13-month combat tour in Vietnam, I would estimate that 85% of the Marines with whom I associated injected profanity into their conversations on a regular basis. During Boot Camp at Parris Island, South Carolina, all three Drill Instructors assigned to our platoon somehow managed to inject the 'F'-bomb in almost every sentence and even, believe it or not, mid-word - as in "Fan-f---ing-tastic!" "
So, 15% of the men, whom you have associated with didn’t cuss. That’s shows that everyone doesn’t cuss, no matter what some people want to believe.
A lot of people cuss, because they think that cussing shows toughness. It shows how small their vocabulary is.
Michel wrote: "served with cussed?"Yes! However, some will rarely curse (often out of fear during combat), while others are quite foul-mouthed. Even civilians caught in the middle of a battle zone (urban fighting, Beirut, 1982) are liable to curse out of stress/fear. "
Michel, you did not hear all the men you have served with cuss, so you can’t say that every last one of those men curse. It may be hard for you to believe, but not everyone cuss.
Arch wrote: "Michel wrote: "served with cussed?"
Yes! However, some will rarely curse (often out of fear during combat), while others are quite foul-mouthed. Even civilians caught in the middle of a battle zone..."
Arch, I find your obsession about denying the fact that people can curse from time to time in certain circumstances to be downright weird. Many who curse on occasions don't do it because of a lack of vocabulary but rather because of certain stressful circumstances. It is as simple as that. As for writing a war story without a single curse word in it, I would say that most readers who know about actual war would quickly drop that book as being a rose-colored picture of war. Again, it is a question of realism, not of lack of vocabulary. If you truly can't stand the use of a single curse in a war/military novel, then don't read war stories.
Yes! However, some will rarely curse (often out of fear during combat), while others are quite foul-mouthed. Even civilians caught in the middle of a battle zone..."
Arch, I find your obsession about denying the fact that people can curse from time to time in certain circumstances to be downright weird. Many who curse on occasions don't do it because of a lack of vocabulary but rather because of certain stressful circumstances. It is as simple as that. As for writing a war story without a single curse word in it, I would say that most readers who know about actual war would quickly drop that book as being a rose-colored picture of war. Again, it is a question of realism, not of lack of vocabulary. If you truly can't stand the use of a single curse in a war/military novel, then don't read war stories.
Michel wrote: "Arch, I find your obsession about denying the fact that people can curse from time to time in certain circumstances to be downright weird. Many who curse on occasions don't do it because of a lack of vocabulary but rather because of certain stressful circumstances. It is as simple as that. "Michel, why are you in denial that everyone doesn’t cuss. I don’t cuss and I know a lot of other people that doesn’t cuss.
I am not in denial: I simply acknowledge reality. That you say that you never cuss doesn't explain why you can't accept that others could cuss under certain circumstances. I can guarantee you that most people who end up being shelled by artillery will cuss aplenty, mostly targetted at the enemy shelling you.
Michel wrote: "I am not in denial: I simply acknowledge reality. That you say that you never cuss doesn't explain why you can't accept that others could cuss under certain circumstances. I can guarantee you that most people who end up being shelled by artillery will cuss aplenty, mostly targetted at the enemy shelling you. "You can’t accept that fact that some people doesn’t cuss. Most people doesn’t speak for all people.
Who cares if some people supposedly never cuss, including you? So what? This World won't change because of that, so why do you waste so much time and forum space on this? We are supposed to discuss books on GR, not claim holyer-than-though attitudes. I am still ready to participate in an honest discussion about the need or not to have a warning label system on books but spare me your cuss-free claims, or better, grow up!.
Michel wrote: "Who cares if some people supposedly never cuss, including you? So what? This World won't change because of that, so why do you waste so much time and forum space on this? We are supposed to discuss books on GR, not claim holyer-than-though attitudes. I am still ready to participate in an honest discussion about the need or not to have a warning label system on books but spare me your cuss-free claims, or better, grow up!."You are the one that needs to grow up. I’ve stated more than once, why I feel that warning/rating system should be on books. I don’t your kind of books.
Michel wrote: "Who cares if some people supposedly never cuss, including you? So what? This World won't change because of that, so why do you waste so much time and forum space on this? We are supposed to discuss..."she's crazy Michel, just ignore her, she likes to fight with everyone. block her.
Rating systems-do they ever really work. Past pg, r, or X we need to be careful of complete censorship or God forbid-banning of books or other materials. Look at the current move by a number of school districts to ban works like Catcher in The Rye and others. Watch many old westerns and you see many now carry OC-outdated cultural references. We should never fear our ability to interpret a cover blurb or view a cover to decide if we want to read the book. It's high time people have the guts to stand up for themselves and not let others make decisions for them.
I don't love the idea because it's a slippery slope. I just worry that certain books will be flagged and will be led to book bans.
Yes, that's the future of any official rating system: bans. People who want to restrict or "protect" you from things that they deem bad are book burners.
Censorshp or warnings, rather specific or merely implied, are purely arbitrary. Therefore, they tend to negatively impact one's ability to consider and be tolerent of lifestyles, culture, and beliefs that may differ from one's own. Perceptions of right versus wrong, proper versus improper, necessary versus unnecessary, and acceptable versus unacceptable vary from one person to the next.
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind."
Bernard Baruch (Financier/Statesman/Author) 1870 - 1965.
Again, content warnings aren't censorship. They're information about product contents. They are no different than warning labels on carcinogenic products such as cigarettes or nutrition labels on food products. Those labels tell you what's inside. They don't tell you whether or not to consume products. If you want to risk getting cancer or overindulging in salt and fat, well, that's your business. (Of course, you also have to accept responsibility for the consequences.) While it's true that content warnings can be dicey because of differing perspectives on what constitutes (for example) strong language, at least they offer a general clue as to what's inside so that people can make their own decisions. That shouldn't be a big deal.
Everybody listen, the woman is crazy just ignore her or block her.
Dale wrote: "Again, content warnings aren't censorship. They're information about product contents. They are no different than warning labels on carcinogenic products such as cigarettes or nutrition labels on f..."Nutritional labels are objective, content warnings are subjective. That's what I have an issue with
I don’t know why people are getting censorship from my post. I would never read any author’s book that has a problem with warning/rating system. I believe in 1 star ratings.
Chad wrote: "Nutritional labels are objective, content warnings are subjective. That's what I have an issue with"Objective often isn't as objective as one might think. ;-) But content warnings can be reasonably objective so long as they stick to basic facts. Strong language, graphic violence, graphic sex. Trigger warnings such as rape, incest, child abuse, etc. These simply describe what's in there. Granted, people can have different levels of tolerance that colors their view of "graphic," but most of us understand what these basic terms mean and can use them to effectively filter out content that we might not want to expose ourselves to. If you don't care what you're exposed to, you can ignore content warnings. But some people do care, and all this is about is giving them a chance to decide what they want to read and what they'd rather skip. I really don't see why that should be a problem for anyone. Unless, of course, someone thinks they should be the arbiter of what someone else should be forced to read. But if anyone does think that, maybe they're the one with the problem. (And I don't mean to imply anything about you here. I assume you wouldn't presume to do such a thing.)
I don't think censorship is appropriate, and I don't think Arch is suggesting it is.I list all of my books as "adult". They don't contain any graphic sex or violence (with one exception), but because of the themes, I don't consider them appropriate for anyone younger than 16/17.
Any author who wants to know how to rate their book can upload it for free to BookCave. They will ask you a series of questions, including language, sex, violence, etc., and then give you the appropriate age rating.
You can also use the tool as a reader to see if the book you're interested in has been listed & rated by someone else, as the website encourages readers and not just authors to participate, as well as having popular books rated by their own editorial staff. The ratings are broken down into specific categories, so you'd know exactly what you'll encounter in a given book. Check out their landing page for loads of info on how it works.
I hope this tool becomes more popular and that eventually it becomes something most readers & writers use. We don't need "big brother", but this is a way for readers to find what they want in our books.
Gifford wrote: "I don't think censorship is appropriate, and I don't think Arch is suggesting it is."Gifford, you’ve understood what I was saying. Thank you for sharing about Bookcave. I’ve checked them out.
My very first I didn't include a warning but that was not intentional. I was just starting out and there were certain things I still wasn't privy to, but with my new book coming out, I added a trigger warning in the description and again inside the book. Not because I felt forced to, but because in my book it contains things that may be triggers for people(rape, physical, sexual child abuse, etc.). I myself have been sexually abused as a child so can understand why people would want to be warned. For me, I am able to tolerate those things, others can't. Will I discontinue writing things that involve violence, or cursing or the such? Probably not, but I want to give the readers an opportunity to decide for themselves if my books are right for them because I know my books are right for someone, but for everybody and I'm fine with that.
I liked that it was your choice as an artist to include the trigger warning. I agree what you said, and you should always write what’s in your heart and mind
I just want to be considerate of readers as I would want that same consideration being an avid reader also. Everyone has their own likes/dislikes, opinions, and aversions and in my opinion, trigger/content warnings are not only a way to be considerate but it's a way to show your respect to your readers and potential readers. I am a multi-genre author, so some things I write will be vulgar, some will be tame, and everything in between, but I will most likely add a trigger warning to all my work from here on out, but that's just me.
M. wrote: "I just want to be considerate of readers as I would want that same consideration being an avid reader also. Everyone has their own likes/dislikes, opinions, and aversions and in my opinion, trigger/content warnings are not only a way to be considerate but it's a way to show your respect to your readers and potential readers. I am a multi-genre author, so some things I write will be vulgar, some will be tame, and everything in between, but I will most likely add a trigger warning to all my work from here on out, but that's just me. "M, you understand what I was saying in my post. You think about readers and how they would feel. Authors that gets upset over a person wanting a warning/rate system has to remember that readers are the ones that buy and read books. Readers are the ones that rate and review books. Without readers, what would authors do?
I believe a warning rating of some kind could be used so that readers won't be surprised by what they might consider objectionable content. My book, President's Eyes Only, does contain real-life language and content where it is appropriate for the story and character. None of it is gratuitous. The language and sexual content advance the story and is not there simply for impact and shock. Readers should know, however, before purchasing a book if it contains content that they consider objectionable. Personally, I prefer an edgy story with real-life language and content.
There was a time, not very long ago, when even a married couple could not be portrayed as sleeping in the same bed, a flushing toilet could not be described, and an obviously gay person could not appear in a story. Morals and mores evolve with the times.
With general access to the internet, anyone may obtain sufficient information to determine whether or not a storyline meets their self-imposed standards by which they determine what they find acceptable or offensive. One does not require someone else to determine it for them.