Middle Grade Madness! discussion
August MG Reading Challenge 2022
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August MG Reading Challenge Info/SIGN UP
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CraftyChara
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Jul 12, 2022 07:19AM
Sounds great! I haven't done a challenge since 2019. I'm looking forward to joining. I just sign up.
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I wanted to join, but it seems that virtually all of my TBR MG's are considered "UG" and therefore ineligible. And none of the Penelope Lively or Mabel Esther Allan books I have are listed... :( Will there be a UG-inclusive event in the future? :) I didn't even know there was further subdivisions of "middle grade" books before today (I'm based in Europe, so definitely a different system!). ;)
EDIT: There is a UK version of the same ARbookfind site: https://www.arbookfind.co.uk/. LY=LG, MY=MG, MY+=MG+, UY=UG. This lists many of the books I can't find on the U.S. site. @Kadi - are you willing to grant equivalency? :) No worries if not, just hoping, so I can include Lively, Nesbit & Blyton et al. :)
Alright, I think I have dug up enough books that show up as MG on the U.S. ARbookfind database (a quick gripe that it also doesn't cover a single Enid Blyton book!!! Seriously?! Classics!).One quick question - if the book doesn't show up on the U.S. ARbookfind list, it doesn't qualify, right? Because there's one case for me where the first book of a four book series shows up (Reading the Bones), but none of the other three sequels (Peggy Henderson Adventures 4-Book Bundle: A Bone to Pick / Bone Deep / Broken Bones / Reading the Bones)...
So the official ruling is that only the first book will count towards the challenge? :) It's okay if so - I think I have enough other material to work from. Was just curious.
Mod
Thanks for signing up!😊
Mod
Hey Capn, sorry for the late reply, I’m super sick right now! This is going to be a long answer so bear with me!
It’s a good thing you’re checking your books previously before the challenge starts, I love how organised everyone’s being with getting books ready for the challenge!
You literally read my mind, I was going to suggest checking out the UK version of the website if the books you’re looking for aren’t on the US website. The US website is always accurate with the age ratings but I guess this goes to show it doesn’t have all books, so using the UK website to check books is acceptable. From what I remember it used to have all the books but I guess now it caters only to US published books or something (it not having Enid Blyton books is very odd!)
And yes, you’re correct about the age ratings:
LY = LG
MY = MG
MY+ = MG+
UY = UG
(I know you know this, I’m just reiterating it for anyone else this might be relevant for)
So some books are on both the UK and US website, in which case they always have the same age ratings but some books are only on the UK one or only on the US one. My recommendation is to check the US site first and if you can’t find it on there then check the UK site.
For this challenge ONLY MY and MY+ rated books can be read!
Rarely, it may be the case that some books don’t appear on either website, in which case you can use Goodreads to verify they’re middle grade. If the book is categorised as middle grade on the side of the desktop website or at the bottom of the goodreads app’s book entry page then it classifies as middle grade. But beware, goodreads tags are not always accurate which is why I prefer everyone uses the website. If a book doesn’t have an mg tag on goodreads and you think it classifies as mg or mg+ please tell your team captain to ask me about the specific book and I’ll give my ruling on it.
In this particular case that you’re asking about Capn, seeing as the first book in the series is MG it’s likely the rest all are too. And having looked over them online I’d say they definitely are MG because of 1. The themes in them and 2. The protagonist’s age. So you’re all good to read them for the challenge!
It’s a shame about your TBR MG books turning out to be UG, they must be YA books mostly. If you’re looking for MG books you can check out our recommendations: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/... or any of the books on the group’s bookshelves: or literally any of our Readathon events from 2020 onwards which all have age categorised lists of MG books that link to themes.
As for UG (YA) inclusive events that’s pretty much all the group events except for this one! Every event is open to YA, NA and adult books and I always welcome that diversity in age ratings for the books we include in events because I know we all probably don’t read MG only all the time. This is the only event on the group where only MG books are allowed for it!
Just this month we have an event for all age books, check it out if you’re interested: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
I hope this super long response answered some of your questions, if you've got any more please feel free to ask!
Kadi wrote: "Capn wrote: "I wanted to join, but it seems that virtually all of my TBR MG's are considered "UG" and therefore ineligible..."Hey Capn, sorry for the late reply, I’m super sick right now! This is..."
Sorry to hear that you are sick. Try to rest up.
Wow, thanks, Kadi! :) Appreciate this very much, especially considering you are ill. I hope you recover well and quickly.Oh, I'm quite excited to begin this challenge (and future ones, too!). :D Thanks for organizing it so well!
(Also - I did not know that UG equates to YA! I thought it was a further division of MG...!). :) Thanks for clarifying that!
Capn wrote: "(Also - I did not know that UG equates to YA! I thought it was a further division of MG...!). :) Thanks for clarifying that!"Same!
Capn wrote: "(Also - I did not know that UG equates to YA! I thought it was a further division of MG...!). :) Thanks for clarifying that!"I think it stands for upper grade like MG stands for middle grade.
Count me in again this year! I'm looking forward to it!
By the way, as for determining whether a book is middle grade or not, most publishers list that information on their websites, and it's far more reliably accurate than Goodreads. That is if the book isn't listed on either the US or UK ARBookfinder sites. (I'm actually not a big fan of AR, but I recognize that it is useful for this challenge and get why Kadi chose it for reference.)
I think LG = Lower Grade, MG = Middle Grade, UG = Upper Grade.I also figure if the library shelves it as MG (Juvenile Fiction), it should be safe.
Mod
Aaw thanks Lynn😊 luckily it's not covid (I did a self-test) but it's one of those bugs that's doing the rounds, everyone seems to be catching it right now. Onto my 4th day of it now, but I've got to push on and do stuff for the challenge or else I'll run out of time later. No rest for the wicked eh!
Mod
LG = Lower Grade - Kindergarten to Grade 3 - ages 5/6 to 8
MG = Middle Grade - Grades 4 to 8 - ages 9 to 14
MG+ = Upper Middle Grade - Grades 6 and above - ages 11/12 to 14
UG = Upper Grade - Grades 9 to 12 - ages 14/15 to 18
I included the ages of what kids in these grades would be because American grades don't correlate with the UK/European school systems well but ages are universally understood and they more clearly illustrate the point.
Once you see the ages you can get why UG is really just YA. That also means that LG is technically what's classified as children's books.
Also you'll notice the ages of MG overlaps with the ages of MG+ and that's because MG+ (upper middle grade) is like a subdivision of MG, it doesn't exist by itself, although I've been advocating for quite a few years now that it should become its own category like new adult which is a category that was created not too long ago to label the ridge between YA and adult books.
Tiffany and Audrey's suggestions are actually great ways to find MG books if you're looking for them but I would prefer for everyone to use the AR websites (both UK and US) to determine/double check that the books are definitely MG. And I say this not to be nitpicky but to avoid confusion because whilst there's no debate over the classification of the majority of MG books, MG+ can be a tricky field to navigate. I've been to libraries where YA books are placed in the MG section because of the misunderstanding of what upper middle grade is and I've had librarians ask me for advice on this. It all comes down to MG+ books because they're what really blurs the line between what's considered MG and what's considered YA. AR actually acknowledge themselves that what they class as MG+ is often sold or shelved as YA (https://www.arbookfind.com/popups/sea...) but by going off the AR website instead of just what we see in bookstores or libraries we can actually widen the scope of what people can read for the challenge without having people accidentally read YA books for an MG challenge. This way the challenge is less restrictive and people can more easily find things to read and find books for a variety of ages without being inaccurate about it.
We really got down into the nitty gritty of the MG/YA divide there huh! It's always an interesting discussion to have! Man I gotta stop writing essay responses though, I'm going to bore you all to death😂
Aw Kadi hope u feel better. Which are the websites again? I’ve seemed to hv lost track of them lol
Kadi wrote: "@Capn @Chara yep Lynn is right and Audrey is too on what the abbreviations stand for.LG = Lower Grade - Kindergarten to Grade 3 - ages 5/6 to 8
MG = Middle Grade - Grades 4 to 8 - ages 9 to 14
MG..."
This is so seriously helpful to me! I appreciate the essay! I have been confused about the classifications ever since joining GR! :D
I don't want to perpetuate the discussion further (because we could go on forever here, couldn't we?!), but I have a passion for mid-century "juvenile" literature. And I am convinced that's what leaves me so confused, because the distinction by content between groups gets really fuzzy when there's no strong language or sexual references in either! XD
Thank you again for this illuminating discussion! I see it now... I hope. :)
16 days to go!!!
Kadi wrote: "@Capn @Chara yep Lynn is right and Audrey is too on what the abbreviations stand for.LG = Lower Grade - Kindergarten to Grade 3 - ages 5/6 to 8
MG = Middle Grade - Grades 4 to 8 - ages 9 to 14
MG..."
Keep the essays coming! You've really help me. (a neurodivergent person) follow along.
Kadi wrote: "@Capn @Chara yep Lynn is right and Audrey is too on what the abbreviations stand for.LG = Lower Grade - Kindergarten to Grade 3 - ages 5/6 to 8
MG = Middle Grade - Grades 4 to 8 - ages 9 to 14
MG..."
Thanks for the essay Kadi, this should keep everyone on the same page. Hope you feel better soon.
EdenB15 wrote: "Aw Kadi hope u feel better. Which are the websites again? I’ve seemed to hv lost track of them lol"The Us one
https://www.arbookfind.com/default.aspx
Maybe Capn can post the link to the UK one.
Mod
Thanks Eden😊
AR US: https://www.arbookfind.com/
AR UK: https://www.arbookfind.co.uk/
Mod
I don't want to perpetuate the discussion further (because we could go on forever here, couldn't we?!), but I have a passion for"
We really could have this discussion forever and I'd happily have it😂 I totally get you about it being confusing when there's no strong language or obvious romance because they're the telltale signs for deciding whether the book is MG+ or YA. The best indicator is usually the protagonist's age though that's not a foolproof method because you can get young protagonists who act older or older protagonists who act younger.
The harder more subtle idea to grasp is what I often try but fail to describe as the general vibe of maturity in the content. It's not something you can explain it's more something you just know when you read a book that this is the kind of content a 14-16 year old would relate to and not find childish nor find uncomfortable. And that's really hard to do because adults tend to either grossly underestimate the kind of content a mid-teen could handle or wildly overestimate it. Even looking at regular MG books I know of a lot of people who don't read MG regularly like we do who are sometimes surprised by the heavy themes and taboo topics that are discussed in them.
I'm going to spiral off into another essay, you have to stop me😂
And yes! 16 days to go! I added a countdown to the spreadsheet and it's colour coded. The spreadsheet is rainbow coloured I really went crazy this year and added extra things like fun stats on the side for no reason hahah!
Mod
Kadi wrote: "EdenB15 wrote: "Aw Kadi hope u feel better. Which are the websites again? I’ve seemed to hv lost track of them lol"Thanks Eden😊
AR US: https://www.arbookfind.com/
AR UK: https://www.arbookfind.co..."
Thanks so much for adding the UK site. I was able to find 4 books that weren't on the US site.
Mod
Oh well, we can use the UK site too, it’s just as reliable and I’m glad it helped you find more books you were looking for!
Kadi wrote: "Do you remember if we had this problem last year Lynn? I swear the US site used to have so many more books on it.Oh well, we can use the UK site too, it’s just as reliable and I’m glad it helped y..."
I don't remember that, but I've slept several times since then, so it's not surprising. 😏 I was pretty sure those six books were MG, but I couldn't find confirmation, so I'm thrilled.
Mod
Hahaha I'd like to think you've slept a bit since then! Unless you're secretly superhuman and have been hiding it very well.
I'm going to use the UK website now and see if I can find some of the books that weren't on the US website. Every book I come across I want to read but realistically I'll only read like 5 books so I have to be choosy
Kadi wrote: "Lynn wrote: "I don't remember that, but I've slept several times since then, so it's not surprising. 😏 I was pretty sure those six books were MG, but I couldn't find confirmation, so I'm thrilled."..."I like having more options, so that helps.
Capn wrote: "I don't want to perpetuate the discussion further (because we could go on forever here, couldn't we?!), but I have a passion for mid-century "juvenile" literature. And I am convinced that's what leaves me so confused, because the distinction by content between groups gets really fuzzy when there's no strong language or sexual references in either! XD"Actually, these different age categories are a relatively recent development in publishing, which of course for our purposes only serves to confuse matters more. For a very long time, there were no divisions within juvenile literature. Publishers only had adult and children's departments. By the mid 20th century, there were new books that under AR's age level divisions would be considered LG and publishers introduced under new labels like "beginning readers" or "young readers." What we today would call Young Adult (and AR labels UG), didn't exist until the late 1960's. One of the very first books published specifically with a teen audience in mind was The Outsiders in 1967, and it took a couple decades before YA was really firmly established as its own division.
Because the age markets have changed so much over time, especially in the past century, older books are not easily classified in today's terms. They've had to be placed into age divisions that didn't exist when they were published. Just one example, the 1959 Newbery Medal winner The Witch of Blackbird Pond would likely be published as YA today. The protagonist is 16 years old and there's a romantic element, but it predates the entire Teen/YA market and today continues to be shelved as MG.
I'll stop there because otherwise this will turn into a very long essay on the history of children's literature!
Oh, and just to be clear regarding my previous comment, I was not criticizing Kadi for choosing to use AR for this. I generally don't like AR because I dislike how it's used in schools, but it makes sense for the purpose of this challenge so that everyone has the same reference source. I was only suggesting consulting the publisher's webpage when a book is not listed in either the US or UK database of AR Bookfinder.
Mod
Also yeah don’t worry I knew that’s how you meant it. I originally wrote a whole paragraph about my lack of experience with AR which meant I had no particular feelings towards it like you do but then I deleted the paragraph because my previous response was already super long. It was basically just me saying that my school introduced AR when I was in my last 2 years (the years when you’re only exam focused so you don’t read in English except the books you need for the exams) so I never actually saw how it worked within a school setting. Which I feel is a shame. I say that because my school dropped reading time from English classes because people just used to mess around and talk in the library during reading time and I always read books anyway like I was in the library everyday so it’s not like I would have needed AR to motivate me to read but maybe if we had AR I wouldn’t have been one of the only people in my year frequenting the library. I feel like schools don’t have enough of a reading culture! But then I hear great stories from librarians and educators who help cultivate the reading culture for the students so I guess it’sa different experience for everyone.
Bit of a tandem there, sorry.
This discussion page is really going somewhere else😂
Kadi wrote: "It’s so interesting to hear about all that Tiffany! I know you read older (in years) MG books than I do so you’ve got an insight into it that I don’t have. I tend to stick with modern MG books, I t..."I like the AR website because it's easy to navigate. There are other websites that show reading levels of books, but many of them are complicated and some of them charge a fee for membership.
The way AR worked in school was that we scored points based on the reading quizzes both individually and as a class. With some teachers it wasn't a big deal, but there were teachers who were really competitive about it. They only wanted us to read books that had AR quizzes and were worth the most points, and they posted updated rankings on the board. It turned every book into an assignment even if we were just reading for fun and turned something I loved (reading) into something I hated (a contest). It definitely depended on the teacher, though! I can see how some kids might have been motivated by it, but I didn't like competition and just wanted to read books I chose without worrying about quizzes, points, or rankings.Also, I can't recall ever having reading time in the library during class. It's a shame your school had that and dropped it! I could be wrong since I'm not in school now (as a student, teacher, librarian, or anything else), but I think there's more focus on encouraging reading for pleasure and cultivating a reading culture in schools today than there was when I was in school.
Just wanted to thank Tiffany for the quick summary of the history of the juvenile market in publishing. This answered all my outstanding questions. I tend to read juvenile lit. from 1940-1980. I find stuff from the 1970s still problematic to classify, but that's interesting to know that the official turning point was '67.I think that's part of what appeals to me about all this stuff written years before I was born: there was a lot more room to explore, seemingly. Kids could find their own comfortable niche within the broad range, and be exposed to varying levels and content at the same time. It probably helped kids to determine for themselves what they like to read, which I imagine is more empowering than being told what exactly they should be reading. (But I see why educators demanded a system, too. No metrics, otherwise, and hard to recommend a next book without a lot of first-hand knowledge in the subject!).
I guess this is a long-winded way for me to encourage others to select a "vintage" read
Hi I am very new to this group. I was wondering if this challenge is closed? If not I would love to join! Thank you so much! ,Kaitlyn
Mod
I agree! It's a great resource for challenges like this, at least.
Kaitlyn wrote: "Hi I am very new to this group. I was wondering if this challenge is closed? If not I would love to join! Thank you so much! ,Kaitlyn"
It’s still open Kaitlyn!! Please sign up, this event is very fun!
Mod
It's such a shame that you didn't have a good experience with it! It's sad to say I'm not surprised too. Some schools are too academically competitive and it's great if it helps kids achieve things but it shouldn't take the joy out of things like reading or art, etc. I can relate to that a lot. I'm glad it didn't deter you from continuing to read for fun though!
Mod
Ooh could you recommend some good "vintage" reads? I don't mind any genre (maybe not fantasy though). I think the thing that turns me off older reads is the old style narrative voice or excessive descriptions so if you know some of good ones that more easily readable I'd definitely be interested in checking them out!
Mod
Kaitlyn"
Hey Kaitlyn! Yep, as Ilsen has said the sign ups are still open! Please fill in this form when you get the chance: https://forms.gle/awcC8o1QEc3PxVvK9
Heh, so I'm rather fond of fantasy, so I'll try to steer clear for your sake! Can't guarantee I will be able to keep it totally out. ;)Mabel Esther Allan wrote about 150 books mid-century. She's not the most eloquent writer, but she's very, very good at setting. Reading her novels is like going on vacation (or to school) with the protagonist in the 1950s. It's a lot of fun. (I'm actually a member of the fan group here on GR, so I can give a link here to her stories sorted by location, if anyone wants a vicarious vintage trip! https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/... ). A few favourites are:
An Island in a Green Sea (written 1972) - Outer Hebrides of Scotland, back when people subsisted on crofts in really harsh conditions. Great for people of Scottish heritage in particular.
Ann's Alpine Adventure (1957) - Andermatt, Switzerland
Seven in Switzerland (1950) - Kandersteg, Switzerland
Adventure Royal (1954) - a "Ruritania"-style fictional European country (like Liechtenstein or Andorra, etc.)
Balconies and Blue Nets (1956) - vintage Brittany, France (Concarneau area)
A Dream of Hunger Moss (1983) - one of her latest, it concerns the evacuations to the countryside ahead of WWII. If you liked A Place to Hang the Moon, this is set in the same time frame.
The Bells of Rome (1975) - for Rome in the early 1970s, when you could still drive by the Colosseum and past the arch of Constantine (pedestrian only, now). In general, Allan's thrillers (like this) aren't as good, but this is entertaining for anyone who has been to Rome, or who is planning a trip, I thought.
A Chill in the Lane (1969) - a ghost story based in Cornwall (this one, Time to Go Back (1972), and Romansgrove (1975), the latter 2 of which I haven't read yet, are the easiest and cheapest to come by secondhand from Abebooks or similar)
NB: Girls Gone By Publishers is this tiny little publisher (run by an English vicar and her friend) dedicated to resurrecting forgotten stories of quality. They have reprinted several of the very rare MEA books, and other notable authors from this time (Elinor Brent-Dyer, the Chalet School series, etc.). Check out their website - it's full of vintage loveliness! (Books tend to be cheapest ordered directly from them, but they don't hold much stock, seeing as they live in a cottage in Somerset. My other insider tip is that The Children's Bookshop in Hay-on-Wye tends to hold their stock longer than other places, and it's noticeably cheaper to order directly from their website rather than through Abebooks or another middleman. Worth checking there first if you have recently missed something that GGBP doesn't have stocked anymore: I've gotten new copies there for half the price than the same printing offered as a used book on Abe!).
Penelope Lively is one of my other favourite authors (60s and 70s). She has several famous books like Astercote (1970), which are set in rural England and often feature time slip or nearly time slip (Astercote is fuzzy on that front). The House in Norham Gardens (1974) (time slip in dreams? 1970s London is pretty neat...) and The Wild Hunt of Hagworthy (1971) (creepy pagan traditions with ghostly/v. mild horror aspect) are two of my favourites.
And I have to mention some fantasy, because my two favourite books are there. One is The Dark Is Rising (1973) by Susan Cooper (there's a 5 book sequence (first book is Over Sea, Under Stone from 1965), and I love them ALL!).
And the other is one I just read this month, The Oak King and the Ash Queen (1987) by Ann Phillips, which is a must for anyone who has a love for trees (this one is harder to find).
I'm looking forward to finding some new old favourites during the challenge! :D I have some Tonke Dragt lined up (a Dutch author), Astrid Lindgren (Swedish), E Nesbit (British), Antonia Barber (also Brit), and some more Penelope Lively. :) I also have a little Enid Blyton set aside, but probably more for next year's challenge! :)
I am also interested in receiving vintage recommendations! If it's musty, dusty and yellowed, I'm all over it. :) I don't really mind when it's from, but I love stuff that's out of print (not even sure why - I think I just like to step out of my own 'time' to really escape!)
Kadi wrote: "Tiffany wrote: "The way AR worked in school was that we scored points based on the reading quizzes both individually and as a class. With some teachers it wasn't a big deal, but there were teachers..."This whole conversation has resonated with me. I'm a huge proponent of letting kids read what interests them, not because they can take a test on it. The best project in all my years of schooling was in 8th grade when our teacher, for one whole semester, let us choose our reading. We weren't tested on any of it, but did have to write reports on what we read. It was very liberating and solidified my love of reading! The books we read were "rated" in such a way that if a book was longer and more complicated, you would earn more points and have to read less books.
Kelly wrote: "Kadi wrote: "Tiffany wrote: "The way AR worked in school was that we scored points based on the reading quizzes both individually and as a class. With some teachers it wasn't a big deal, but there ..."Book reports were the opposite for me. If I didnt already love reading I probably wouldn't have. The book reoports made reading less fun, and trying to pick a book that kids wouldnt tease you for reading, I dont think teasing actually happed because of what book kids picked but that was my own inner fear of judgement.
And then teachers would assign us "classics" to read which I hated. Lord of the flies, etc. But I also had a book just for fun going at the same time.
So now I usually have at least 2 going, one I want to read and another I want to read for a group challenge. ;) Usually one fantasy one contemporary. And sometime a graphic novel is tossed in lol.
Mod
Wheeew! Thanks for all the recs and suggestions! I'm going to go through them and pick out some I might like later tonight.
Mod
That sounds like such a fun project! There's something about being able to pick what you're most interested in that makes it super exciting. In our last years we had to pick advertisements and music videos to analyse their language and oh my gosh it was the most fun I ever had in English, which is saying a lot because I always enjoyed English😂 My fave subject thanks to my wonderful teacher who taught me for 5 years!
Mod
I totally feel you on the fear of teasing thing. No one ever made fun of me (to my face) but reading definitely wasn't something my peers or even people I know now do as a pastime so I feel like people judge you for it or think you're a nerd. Mostly I don't care but when you show excitement about books in public then it can feel more sensitive if you get me.
That's what's so great about the group like we all have a mutual understanding and love for books so there's no judgmental feeling!
Mod
If there's anyone waiting in the shadows, please sign up soon! We only need 1 more person to have an equal number for all 6 teams!
Thank you so much for giving me the link to sign up! I am super excited. I have never been in a reading challenge, and I can’t wait!
Middle Grade Madness!
Books mentioned in this topic
Over Sea, Under Stone (other topics)A Place to Hang the Moon (other topics)
A Dream of Hunger Moss (other topics)
Seven in Switzerland (other topics)
Adventure Royal (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Antonia Barber (other topics)Elinor M. Brent-Dyer (other topics)
Mabel Esther Allan (other topics)
Penelope Lively (other topics)
Tonke Dragt (other topics)
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