Western Authors & Readers discussion
How racy is too racy?
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Hi Kent. Like you I think a hint is enough.
Otherwise I'd feel the story would be drifting into different waters altogether.
Unless the novel was supposed to be an explicit 19th century version of FSOG I'd personally leave it as you're doing it.
Cheers.
Thanks for the comment; great advice. My inner editor has been keeping out of the blue.
Hi Kent,In my first western Last Stand, I had a fairly graphic sex scene that was necessary since the women used sex to get information that was necessary for the protagonist to save the day. While it did not dip into erotica, it was detailed enough to play the scene out. In all my reviews and emails, I have only received one email that was uncomfortable with it. My take away is that if it crucial to the plot then you can get away with it, but I wouldn’t go throwing sex scenes in just to spice things up. I hope that helps.
Take Care,
Duane
Duane wrote: "Hi Kent,In my first western Last Stand, I had a fairly graphic sex scene that was necessary since the women used sex to get information that was necessary for the protagonist to save the day. Whi..."
Thanks Duane, good advice.
I agree with Duane. Unless I am reading a romance novel (which I do), I don't think a graphic description is necessary, unless you need to do it for a specific purpose or to reveal critical information. Even in my romance novels, I don't want FSOG details! LOL
Kent,I don't see any reason to be any more explicit than what McMurtry did with the sex in Lonesome Dove. It might be different if you were specifically writing western erotica, but otherwise, I think being too explicit takes the focus away from the rest of the plot and may actually seem incongruent with the narrative voice of the novel. So far, in my own two novels, there has only been the need to suggest the activity took place, with no real advantage to be had by going any further with the description.
Thanks everyone for replying to my question. I will keep writing love scenes the way I have been so far. Thanks again.
The standards for what should or should not appear in western novels intended for adults used to be set by publishers whose ideas differed widely. That changed with the advent of the boom in self-publishing triggered by POD and ebook technology. Unfortunately, so did much else, including the necessity to master spelling, punctuation, and grammar! And that's before we get so far as to mention the very real skills of fiction writing, like plotting, characterization, point of view, and narrative style.Those who want to take a peek into how western writing used to be up till just a few years ago might like to begin by reading these three 2009 articles: Sex, Violence -- And Boredom and Defending Faith a Futile Exercise (both www.blackhorsewesterns.com/bhe16), and Our First Paperback Original (www.blackhorsewesterns.com/bhe15). The novel Misfit Lil Cheats the Hangrope is now also available through Amazon as a Kindle ebook.
If you are writing for a particular publisher or market, the best advice always has been to look closely at (i.e. read intensively) work that has already met with success in that quarter.
Chap wrote: "The standards for what should or should not appear in western novels intended for adults used to be set by publishers whose ideas differed widely. That changed with the advent of the boom in self-p..."Thanks Chap. I'll have to get my hands on one of the Blackhorse novels.
Robert wrote: "Rigidly correct punctuation and grammar can be a hindrance when writing fiction, so much so that Cormack McCarthy ignores many rules, and Hemingway made heavy use of polysyndetonic style which is t..."I was pleased to read that you got the point, Robert. Also in your explanation that you are not so much interested in sales as in writing for "artistic reasons." Perhaps sadly, some of us have had to rely on writing or editing of one sort or another for a living during entire working lives and on into our semi-retirements. Thus when it comes to genre fiction, we need to take a commercial line and write what is readily understood by publishers and the general reader. This means we can't afford too much experimentation with punctuation and grammar. Or to make mistake after mistake. Although I agree with some of what you and others say about the freedoms presented by the likes of KDP and Smashwords, I'm sorry to have to report finding many self-published ebooks disappointing. The only light of day some would have seen in former times would have been deservedly brief, perhaps on being perused by a publisher's editor working through the unsolicited "slush pile." And those who self-published through the infamous vanity presses ended up with attics and garages filled with boxes of expensive, unsellable books. Today, of course, all readers can have the pleasure of seeing the mistakes in ebooks without spending a fortune. The flip side of this is that the vast volume of unworthy material listed on sites such as Amazon's makes it very difficult for the average buyer to come across the hidden gems. The buyer also tends to become once bitten, twice shy when making subsequent purchases; some won't spend more than a dollar for a whole novel from a writer who is new to them.
A fascinating piece in one of the last two magazines put out by the Western Writers of America. I don't "Round Up" in front of me, but it suggested there was a steam roller of sexy Westerns at one point. The formula had a minimum of two explicit scenes per book, and had a monthly production well into the tens of thousands. I don't remember seeing any of them growing up, even as a teen anxious to see such material. In my own writing, I've hesitated. I think I'm capable of writing such, but I believe the people who read my books aren't nearly as interested in reading such scenes.
Interesting note: one of my female beta readers bothered me throughout the first four of my historical fiction novels for not having enough tension. When I finally turned the heat up, she still wasn't happy!
How much is enough? That's a great question in so many areas of a person's life or endeavors. I'm not sure what the female beta-reader would have said had I handed her a chapter that was explicit. (It got me thinking and trying such a chapter. I thought it was pretty good. But it was probably Penthouse material, to be honest.) So who knows?I've agonized similarly however over explicit language, and have opted to write whatever is in my head. To the extent that I've told potential readers, "Look, my bad guys are bad guys. And my good guys aren't all that good, either. SO I hope language isn't an issue..."
I imagine it's the same. If I was writing "a soiled dove," well, I'd want to make sure she had some dirt on her hands, so to speak...
Ever wonder about Matt Dillon and Kitty...but then that doesn't mean you have to write about it. Thanks Robert!
Gregg and Robert, not all romance novels are explicit. Some are "sweet" (no love scenes); some, like mine, are "mild." There is no "formula" for romance novels--it depends on the publisher. Berkeley, for example, likes them very hot of late. My publisher, Mills & Boon, leaves that up to the author.Also, "tension" does not mean "sex scenes" unless you mean "sexual tension." And usually that is not explicit--just the feeling. Some books (some of mine, for instance) have ONLY sexual tension...and apparently readers like my work because I've just published my 25th novel ("The Lone Sheriff") and I'm getting fan letters. (Though this work has two love scenes--not "sex" scenes--I mean real love scenes, with high emotion and tenderness.
Lynna Banning
Lynna, sounds like you are doing a lot of things right. I may just have to give one of your stories a look.
I bring this up because my novels generally have one or two soiled doves as characters, but I've never gotten graphic about it. What would the purpose be for having an explicit scene in a novel?