Classics and the Western Canon discussion
Woolf, To The Lighthouse
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Week 3 — The Window, Sections 17-19
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To give my take on 2), I might be reading too much into this, but I feel like Mrs. Ramsay sees and understands every character and event better than they do themselves. The last line in chapter 17 I think is a good example of understanding an event better than anyone else, “[she] left the room, it changed, it shaped itself differently; it had become, she knew, giving one last look at it over her shoulder, already the past.” That line to me seems to foreshadow. I believe I keep finding these little bits and they all seem to be from Mrs. Ramsay.
We're halfway through the book, and I haven't figured out why I should care about these people or their inner musings.
Roger wrote: "We're halfway through the book, and I haven't figured out why I should care about these people or their inner musings."I'm sorry you aren't interested in the inner musings of Woolf's characters, but for what it's worth, I got a good chuckle from your inner musings.
Mike wrote: "To give my take on 2), I might be reading too much into this, but I feel like Mrs. Ramsay sees and understands every character and event better than they do themselves. The last line in chapter 17 ..."I see it the same way, Mike. I think she is certainly better than the men at reading the situation. She also feels a responsibility to keep the discussion going and to steer it away from anything that might put a damper on the atmosphere. She is sensitive to her husband’s discomfort when the discussion turns to the legacy of writers. She senses her children are about to start giggling and diverts their attention to the candles. But she also misreads the situation. For example, she says of William Bankes:
Poor man! Who had no wife, and no children and dined alone in lodgings except for tonight.
And all the while, “poor” Mr. Bankes is thinking, gosh, I wish I’d never come. I don’t know why I bothered. What a terrible waste of time. I could have eaten alone, finished dinner by now, and been happily back at work.
The truth was he did not enjoy family life.
I see pairings of similarities: Charles Tansley and Mr. Ramsay are both self-obsessed, focused on their image, and, yet, frightfully insecure. Tansley is chauvinistic, arrogant, ridicules the people around him and their topics of conversation while simultaneously desperate to be recognized by them for his intelligence and pithy remarks.
Mr. Ramsay, much to his wife’s chagrin, remains silent throughout dinner. Until Minta shows up and engages him in conversation, his sole contribution to the dinner is to scowl furiously at Augustus when he asks for a second helping of soup. (The horror! The horror!) He frets over his legacy. Will anyone remember him after he’s gone? What will they say about his writing? He is desperate for praise, acknowledgement.
Both men seem to have a very poor opinion of women and/or their abilities. Tansley brandishes his sexist remarks as if they are badges of honor; Mr. Ramsay thinks his wife is too stupid to understand what she reads.
I see a pairing between Lily and Mr. Bankes: both are focused on their work. Bankes is anxious to get back to his work; Lily thinks of her painting and how she can improve it by re-positioning the tree. Both prioritize work, and neither one seems in the least bit interested in romance or marriage.I think there is also a pairing between Lily and Mrs. Ramsay. While Mrs. Ramsay feels sorry for Lily because she is not married and may never get married, she recognizes in Lily a kindred spirit and turns to her for assistance when she senses Charles Tansley’s desperate plea for attention:
”Will you take me, Mr. Tansley?” said Lily, quickly, kindly, for, of course, if Mrs. Ramsay said to her, as in effect, she did, “I am drowning, my dear, in seas of fire. Unless you apply some balm to the anguish of this hour and say something nice to that young man there, life will run upon the rocks—indeed I hear the grating and the growling at this minute. My nerves are taut as fiddle strings. Another touch and they will snap”—when Mrs. Ramsay said all this, as the glance in her eyes said it, of course for the hundred and fiftieth time Lily Briscoe had to renounce the experiment—what happens if one is not nice to that young man there—and be nice.
Mrs. Ramsay and Lily can communicate with each other without verbalizing their thoughts. Lily obliges her friend by saving the situation. She “rescues” Mr. Tansley by giving him the attention and respect he craves.
Thank you, Susan, for the info/links. I wondered about the references as Woolf surely placed them as she did for a reason. The poetry(song) that Mr. Ramsay quotes is pretty pedestrian; what does that does that say about him? The fancy-sounding French dish at dinner, Boeuf en Daube, is beef stew; what is Woolf telling us about the Ramsay household? The poem Mrs. Ramsay happens to pick up and read is titled Song of the Sirens and is about the irresistible lure of love. Is it? Mrs. Ramsay also reads Sonnet 98; is this to say that Mr. Ramsay is mainly not present (not connected) to her?
Mike wrote: "To give my take on 2), I might be reading too much into this, but I feel like Mrs. Ramsay sees and understands every character and event better than they do themselves. The last line in chapter 17 ..."When I think of this week’s reading, I think of two phrases — the one you quote, “[she] left the room, it changed, it shaped itself differently; it had become, she knew, giving one last look at it over her shoulder, already the past.” And, “Nothing on earth can equal this happiness,” also thought by Mrs Ramsay. They seem to sum up what is happening in this one evening with the Ramsays and their guests. But does Mrs Ramsay understand everyone? Although she likes her, she doesn’t seem to understand what is important to Lily. And I’m not sure how well she understands James.
Roger wrote: "We're halfway through the book, and I haven't figured out why I should care about these people or their inner musings."Certainly, there have been no big events so far. One could argue what’s been portrayed in “The Window” is just an ordinary evening of a middle-class family and their guests on vacation with the small events that occurred— people pursuing their hobbies, going for walks, having dinner together, talking together, agreeing and disagreeing, each person with their own thoughts and reactions. The biggest “event” might be Paul and Mina’s engagement, but their relationship is less the focus than that of the middle-aged Mr and Mrs Ramsay. What might be different about this family is the father’s unusual need for sympathy, as noted by James, Lily Briscoe, Mr Bankes, and Mrs Ramsay, but despite this, the Ramsays appear to have a happy marriage overall. What makes this section interesting for me are the characters and their thoughts as we get to know them, the beauty that is everywhere (the sea, the lighthouse light, the bowl of fruit), and the constant small reminders of a darker side to life.
Gary wrote: "The poem Mrs. Ramsay happens to pick up and read is titled Song of the Sirens and is about the irresistible lure of love. Is it? Mrs. Ramsay also reads Sonnet 98; is this to say that Mr. Ramsay is mainly not present (not connected) to her?.."It's weird because Mrs. Ramsay's feelings toward her husband fluctuate. On the one hand, she says:
At the far end, was her husband, sitting down, all in a heap, frowning. What at? She did not know. She did not mind. She could not understand how she had ever felt any emotion or affection for him. (section xvii).
On the other hand, she says:
And as she looked at him she began to smile, for though she had not said a word, he knew, of course he knew, that she loved him. (section xix).
I can't figure out whether she loves her husband or whether she just loves the idea of being married to him. Also, why is she incapable of saying she loves him:
He wanted something--wanted the thing she always found so difficult to give him; wanted her to tell him that she loved him. And that, no, she could not do.
Tamara wrote: "I see pairings of similarities: Charles Tansley and Mr. Ramsay are both self-obsessed, focused on their image, and, yet, frightfully insecure. Tansley is chauvinistic, arrogant, ridicules the peop..."
I like your idea of doing these pairings, Tamara. It’s an interesting way to think about the characters.
Gary wrote: "Thank you, Susan, for the info/links. I wondered about the references as Woolf surely placed them as she did for a reason. The poetry(song) that Mr. Ramsay quotes is pretty pedestrian; what does th..."I agree that Woolf placed these references for a reason, although it’s not always easy to figure out why. (The story of The Fisherman and His Wife from earlier is another example.)
As for the Boeuf en Daube, I guess it was considered fancier (and French) because of the wine used in the cooking. We know the Ramsays don’t have a lot of money relatively speaking, and a stew where a cheaper cut of meat can be used is still an economical way to feed a large group of people. Another example of Mrs Ramsay’s care for her family and guests?
BTW, I’m noticing that they don’t have electricity or gas, so the cook is probably doing this three days cooking on a wood or coal stove.
Tamara wrote: " ... Mrs. Ramsay's feelings toward her husband fluctuate ... why is she incapable of saying she loves him"I'm pretty sure that everyone in a long-term relationship has changeable feelings about the other. What is at times affection and kindliness, at other times is irritation and aversion, hot and cold. I'd be willing to bet that most everyone in even a "successful" marriage, for example, has had thoughts of separation or divorce. Woolf's description of the changeableness of the Ramsays' relationship rings true to me.
As for Mrs. Ramsay's willful decision to not tell her husband that she loves him, that's another matter. She knows he wants to hear her say the words, she knows he needs that, but she denies him this gesture. Is there something in her upbringing or personality that makes her unable to say the words? Still, she is loving with her children, so she can show and speak of love, at least with them. Or is withholding the words a way for her to demonstrate her individuality, her separateness, from her husband? This withholding has meaning for her: " ... she looked at him smiling. For she had triumphed again. She had not said it: yet he knew."
Three of the novel's five adult male characters, namely Mr. Ramsay, Charles Tansley, and Paul Rayley, are unconfident and insecure. They need encouragement, validation, and praise to keep going. Without these they drift, become distant or passive or irritable. Mrs. Ramsay and Lily Briscoe know this and take it upon themselves to subtlety buoy up the men with the needed words and encouragement. In Woolf's telling these male characters are not all that they seem; without the understanding and support of women willingly offered, they would flounder. Is Woolf trying to illustrate something more generally applicable to more than three characters in a novel? And does Woolf's characterization of women's role here bear out a stereotype about women?
A sure sign of a great work of literature ... spending much more time thinking about it than reading it ... as is the case for me for this novel
Gary wrote: "Three of the novel's five adult male characters, namely Mr. Ramsay, Charles Tansley, and Paul Rayley, are unconfident and insecure. They need encouragement, validation, and praise to keep going. Wi..."In A Room of One's Own, Woolf's extended essay, (which I highly recommend), she says the following:
"Women have served all these centuries as looking-glasses possessing the magic and delicious power of reflecting the figure of man at twice its natural size."
I think Lily Briscoe and Mrs. Ramsay are doing exactly that. It seems to me the only man who exhibits self-confidence and who doesn't need or expect a woman to prop him up is Mr. Bankes.
Tamara wrote: " Also, why is she incapable of saying she loves him: ‘He wanted something--wanted the thing she always found so difficult to give him; wanted her to tell him that she loved him. And that, no, she could not do.’Mr and Mrs Ramsay know each other well enough to know what the other person is thinking, at least at times. We see this in the dinner scene over Mr Carmichael’s request for more soup. And we see it here where Mr Ramsay’s request does not come in words: “And what then? For she felt that he was still looking at her, but that his look had changed. He wanted something—wanted the thing she always found it so difficult to give him; wanted her to tell him that she loved him. And that, no, she could not do.”
Why not? “He found talking so much easier than she did. He could say things—she never could. So naturally it was always he that said the things, and then for some reason he would mind this suddenly, and would reproach her. A heartless woman he called her; she never told him that she loved him.”
Is she a heartless woman? “But it was not so—it was not so. It was only that she never could say what she felt. Was there no crumb on his coat? Nothing she could do for him?”
I think of the modern idea of different love languages here. Mr Ramsay’s may be words, but Mrs Ramsay’s love language is doing things for people — brushing the crumbs off their coat, as she puts it. And we’ve seen the acts she does in care of her husband and her family and the empathetic thoughts she has, but I don’t think we’ve heard her express direct words of love to anyone, including her children.
But Mrs Ramsay finds a way to answer Mr Ramsay’s unspoken request without speaking herself. As readers, can we trust Mrs Ramsay’s sensitivity and empathy to read her husband’s reactions when she says “And as she looked at him, she began to smile, for although she had not said a word, he knew, of course he knew, that she loved him. He could not deny it.”
As I read it, neither of them speaks aloud in this interchange.
Just for fun. This choral version of Luriana, Lurilee was surely composed post-Woolf: https://youtu.be/I4exjoFZnvI [The author of the lyric is misattributed on the title screen as it is not by Nancy Telford, although the music may be. The author of the lyric is Charles Elton]
Susan wrote: "But Mrs Ramsay finds a way to answer Mr Ramsay’s unspoken request without speaking herself. As readers, can we trust Mrs Ramsay’s sensitivity and empathy to read her husband’s reactions when she says “And as she looked at him, she began to smile, for although she had not said a word, he knew, of course he knew, that she loved him. He could not deny it.”"So much happens between the Ramsays in this short chapter but the only dialogue is:
"Well?"
"They're engaged, Paul and Minta."
"So I guessed."
"How nice it would be to marry a man with a wash-leather bag for his watch."
"You won't finish that stocking tonight."
"No, I shan't finish it... Yes, you were right. It's going to be wet tomorrow."
At the very least this is an amazing demonstration of how much goes unsaid between them. Some of this they understand implicitly because they know each other so well, but they also appear to be distant from each other. They each want the other to speak, but neither is able to.
Chapter 17 begins with Mrs. Ramsay expressing her jealousy about Minta and Paul's engagement and she says by comparison that all she has is "an infinitely long table and plates and knives." And thinking about her husband, "She could not understand how she had ever felt any emotion or affection for him."
Their relationship is pleasantly complicated, I know, but is there a root cause for this distance?
I like your idea of pairings, Tamara, so I did one, too.Mr Ramsay:
—married and father of eight children
—over 60 and worried whether anyone will remember him or his work
—“made a definite contribution to philosophy” when he was 25 (William Bankes)
— is now stuck at Q
—a brave man in thought, timid in life (Lily Briscoe and William Bankes)
—the most sincere of men, the truest, the best (Lily Briscoe)
—absorbed in himself, tyrannical, unjust (Lily Briscoe)
—incapable of an untruth, never tampered with a fact
—wanders around absorbed in thought, muttering poetry to himself
—will admire the flowers to please his wife but doesn’t see them
—has a temperament that must have praise and encouragement
— wants to protect his wife, worries about her tendency to sadness
—has old-fashioned beliefs about men’s and women’s abilities
—makes favorites of flyaway girls like Minta
Mrs Ramsay:
—married and mother of eight children
—50 and regretting her children growing up
—was beautiful as a young woman and still is
—is always busy, doing two or three things at once, usually for other people
—does charity work on vacation and at home and takes it seriously
—is empathetic, often feels she is “nothing but a sponge sopped full of human emotions.”
—is truthful with herself, but tends to exaggerate and will shade the truth to avoid making other people unhappy
—can be high-handed, commanding (Lily Briscoe)
—likes to matchmake among her friends
—appreciates beauty when she sees it (the sea, the star, the bowl of fruit)
—transforms the ordinary (beef stew to Boeuf en Daube, a pig’s skull to a bird’s nest or a mountain)
— tries to give her husband the praise and encouragement he wants
—has old-fashioned beliefs about men’s and women’s roles
—prefers “the boobies” to those writing dissertations
Thomas wrote: "Their relationship is pleasantly complicated, I know, but is there a root cause for this distance?."I get the sense Mrs. Ramsay doesn't feel very fulfilled in her marriage. She seems to have a bit of an ambivalent attitude toward marriage as an institution even though she engages in a lot of matchmaking--perhaps because that is the only option she sees available to people.
Mr. Ramsay senses her sadness but doesn't know what to do about it.
Gary wrote: "Three of the novel's five adult male characters, namely Mr. Ramsay, Charles Tansley, and Paul Rayley, are unconfident and insecure. They need encouragement, validation, and praise to keep going. Wi..."I think the question of whether Mrs Ramsay’s intervention helped Paul Rayley in the long run remains to be answered. He doesn’t seem to need her to notice him in the same way as Mr Ramsay and Charles Tansley do.
Thomas wrote:” Chapter 17 begins with Mrs. Ramsay expressing her jealousy about Minta and Paul's engagement and she says by comparison that all she has is "an infinitely long table and plates and knives." And thinking about her husband, "She could not understand how she had ever felt any emotion or affection for him." "Does Mrs Ramsay just have a moment of wishing someone else —like Mr Ramsay —would take over the work of getting the dinner conversation started and going? “Nothing seemed to have merged. They all sat separate. And the whole of the effort of merging and flowing and creating rested on her.” We certainly know enough about Mr Ramsay by now to know he doesn’t even realize there is something to be done. Another man (maybe Mr Bankes or Paul Rayley) would be more up to the role of host so it didn’t fall completely to Mrs Ramsay to get the conversation started and their guests feeling welcome and included. She might be a little physically tired as well. Almost every time we see her before dinner, she is doing something, and often several things at once. The one time she gets a break, she interrupts it to go walk with Mr Ramsay.
Paul and Minta have the romance of being engaged; Mrs Ramsay has the work that comes with being the mother of eight children and married to someone who does not help with the day-to-day management of the household or the care/entertainment of their guests. “Again she felt, as a fact without hostility, the sterility of men, for if she did not do it nobody would do it, and so, giving herself the little shake that one gives a watch that has stopped, the old familiar pulse began beating…”
Thomas wrote: ".. So much happens between the Ramsays in this short chapter but the only dialogue is……They each want the other to speak, but neither is able to. "I read this a little differently. Mrs Ramsay wants Mr Ramsay to speak, and after a silence, he does. “ Do say something, she thought, wishing only to hear his voice. For the shadow, the thing folding them in was beginning, she felt, to close round her again. Say anything, she begged, looking at him, as if for help.…”You won’t finish that stocking tonight,” he said, pointing to her stocking. That was what she wanted—the asperity in his voice reproving her. If he says it’s wrong to be pessimistic probably it is wrong, she thought…”
[Now, I’m not sure that’s what I’d want someone to say in that situation, but it seems to be what Mrs Ramsay wants]
Mr Ramsay wants her, not just to speak, but to say she loves him, and she doesn’t answer his unspoken request verbally but with a look. How he feels about that we don’t know. But for Mrs Ramsay, it seems to be win/win. “For she had triumphed again.”
That’s not to discount the sense of distance between them that you point out, just to say that in this little scene, things seem to resolve momentarily — Mrs Ramsay has a moment to sit and read, Mr Ramsay has a respite from worries about his legacy, and they seem in their spoken and unspoken communication to be in harmony even with all their differences.
It is not clear who thinks Mrs. Ramsay looks sad. That's a mystery in the writing and it may be Virginia's ghostly presence. External events occasion the various thought-streams, which are more important than the events. The thoughts around James's fidgeting and the stocking being too short take much more time in narration than the event . Where did I read about this? How one can put together a photomontage with pictures of, say, a vacation which can be viewed in just a few moments, while narrating the events they represent would take hours.
Virginia does this two-step: the external event is broken up by different people's thoughts. By the clock it is brief, yet so much else goes on inwardly.
Other "events" occur in Lily's thoughts. We shall see her become a much more important character.
Her thoughts are about masses in relation to line, color, and her own significance as a painter. As a painter myself, I think the depiction of Lily's preoccupation with painterly things to be an accurate portrayal of how an artist participates in the world or in a conversation, visualizing where a tree should be placed. I think Virginia must be modeling on her sister Vanessa Bell, a painter. In one thought she is displeased with the way Mr. Ramsay's position in regard to James unbalanced the composition
In reading the Time Passes (again after many readings over the years), I am wracked with sobs and can barely proceed.
But I persevere.
I get a very strong evocation of Joyce's "The Dead" throughout the novel. The First part is like his Christmas Party, and then the contemplation of death, the snow falling. In "Lighthouse," it is the dust. The second part brings Lily to the fore as I think the strongest character.
Sam wrote: "Other "events" occur in the thoughts of Lily, whom we shall see becomes much more important as a character….As a painter myself I think the depiction of Lily's preoccupation with painterly things an accurate portrayal of how an artist participates in the world, or the conversation, more preoccupied with where the tree should be placed. I think Virginia must be modeling on her sister Vanessa Bell, a painter..."I’m excited to get your painterly perspective on Lily, Sam. I was just thinking we’d neglected her in the conversation lately. I expect you’re right — that Virginia Woolf drew on her sister (and perhaps other artists she knew like Duncan Grant and Roger Fry) to portray Lily as an artist. I, too, find “Time Passes” very poignant and evocative.
Yes, Lily's thoughts about her painting integrate with all her thinking seamlessly. It is not a separate subject. She dips her brush into the blue paint and she follows it down into the ocean. The balance of the whole composition is always forefront. Her own significance is likewise bound to being an artist. It's why I love this book so much. To me, the subject of the novel is exactly the painting and her working on it.
Thomas wrote: "Some of this they understand implicitly because they know each other so well, but they also appear to be distant from each other. They each want the other to speak, but neither is able to. ..."This reminds me of Ionesco's "The Chairs", an absurd play about a couple after 75 years of marriage when the spouses needed no verbal communication anymore, they knew each other too well...
Susan wrote: "Week 3 — The Window, Sections 17-19
The Ramsays and their guests gather for dinner. Paul and Minta come in late. The main course, Boeuf en Daube, is a triumph. The conversation covers many topics ..."
I want to recreate this dish. I don't have a Daubiere but I do have a Dutch oven and i'm planning to cook it over an open fire for extra flavour.
Emil wrote: " I want to recreate this dish. I don't have a Daubiere but I do have a Dutch oven and i'm planning to cook it over an open fire for extra flavour. ..."“I— I— I.”
Emil wrote: "I want to recreate this dish. I don't have a Daubiere but I do have a Dutch oven and i'm planning to cook it over an open fire for extra flavour. Cool! Please let us know how it turns out. I’m not sure what a “daubiere” is, but Dutch ovens work well for stew-type dishes in my experience.
I also had to google it, it's a traditional french terracotta/clay pot used to cook dishes like "Boeuf en Daube"
chuckle:
"What passes for cookery in England is an abomination (they agreed). It is putting cabbages in water. It is roasting meat till it is like leather."
Emil wrote: "I also had to google it, it's a traditional french terracotta/clay pot used to cook dishes like "Boeuf en Daube"How interesting! I found this about the theory behind cooking with a daubiere — https://craftsmanship.net/sidebar/the.... The opposite of roasting meat into leather ;)
The Ramsays and their guests gather for dinner. Paul and Minta come in late. The main course, Boeuf en Daube, is a triumph. The conversation covers many topics including old friends, the lighthouse, fishermen, politics, English cookery, Tolstoy, Shakespeare, Sir Walter Scott, and the day’s events. After dinner, Mrs Ramsay goes up to the nursery to see Cam and James and resolves a problem so both are content. Minta, Paul, Lily, and Prue go to the beach to watch the waves, but Mrs Ramsay joins Mr. Ramsay, who is reading, and they read and talk together.
Some Questions to Start:
Lily muses about love during the dinner section: “Yet, she said to herself, from the dawn of time odes have been sung to love; wreaths heaped and roses; and if you asked nine people out of ten they would say they wanted nothing but this—love; while the women, judging from her own experience, would all the time be feeling, This is not what we want; there is nothing more tedious, puerile, and inhuman than this; yet it is also beautiful and necessary. Well then, well then? she asked…” Do you think Mrs Ramsay would agree with her?
2). Charles Tansley is quoted several times as having said “[women] can’t paint, can’t write.” We see Mr Ramsay “exaggerated her [Mrs Ramsay’s] ignorance, her simplicity, for he liked to think that she was not clever, not book-learned at all. He wondered if she understood what she was reading. Probably not, he thought.” (Section 19) What’s the effect of these opinions? And do the women in this book see the men more clearly than the men see them?
Info/Links:
Recipe for Boeuf en Daube:
https://www.marthastewart.com/314857/...
Luriana, Lurilee https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Lurian...
Steer, hither steer your winged pines https://www.lieder.net/lieder/get_tex...
Nor praise the deep vermilion of the rose https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poem...
Mucklebackit’s sorrow in Scott’s novel, The Antiquary: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saunder...
List of Characters
The Ramsay Family
—Mr Ramsay, a philosopher, 60+ years old
—Mrs Ramsay, still beautiful, 50 years old
—Rose, good with her hands
—Prue, the Fair
—Andrew, the Just, good at mathematics
—Jasper, going through a phase
—Roger
—Nancy
—Cam, the Wicked, the youngest daughter
—James, the Ruthless, the youngest, 6 years old
Guests of the Ramsays
—Charles Tansley, a young protege of Mr Ramsay
—Augustus Carmichael, should have been a great philosopher, married
—Lily Briscoe, paints, a friend of Mrs Ramsay, 33 years old
—William Bankes, a botanist, an old friend of Mr Ramsay, 60 years old
—Minta Doyle, a friend of Mrs Ramsay, 24 years old
—Paul Rayley, a “good fellow,” a friend of Mrs Ramsay
Others
—Marie, the Swiss girl (household staff)
—Mildred, the cook (household staff)
—Ellen (household staff)
—Kennedy, the gardener
—an old woman with red cheeks, drinking soup in the kitchen
—Mary and Joseph, a pair of rooks
—Mr Pauncefort, a painter
—Herbert and Carrie Manning, friends of Mr Bankes known to Mrs Ramsay