"The Raven Tower" Discuss Everything *Spoilers*

[SFFBC, Ancillary Mod]

Share your final thoughts about the book!

A few questions to get us started:

1. What did you think of the setting/world?
2. What did you think of the characters?
3. Do you think Strength and Patience of the Mountain is the Raven God, and when did that happen, if so?
4. Overall thoughts?

Non-spoiler thread here: First impressions

[Bonnie]

At 51%.

Still, I went south to Ard Vusktia.

I had imagined the God of Strength and Patience of the Hill to be on the south side, not the north side. Is that understandable, or completely wrong on my part? Well, putting more on that map would have helped! How about showing villages, settlements, roads, original sites of the gods...

If I think through why I thought that he was on the southern, Iraden side...Because he knew about what Mawat and Eolo were up to; and knew about languages and developments of Xuluh and Tel, even raid; and he seemed to be sort of on Iraden's side (even though he had been there so long he preceded Iraden).

Random thoughts:
-I liked Myriad the Meteor (she can inhabit a swarm of insects!)... Until she was right there during the attack on the River Camp. Now I am suspicious she is up to something.

-I like the bits about economics (trade, specialization of labor) / anthropology (urbanization, development of armed forces) / environment (deforestation, agriculture).

-I would suspect that gods don't exist and the whole Raven Instrument/Lease deal is a scam, except that the whole story is being told by a god!

[Bonnie]

The God of Strength and Patience of the Hill = acronym GOSPOTH, or also "Ferdinand" as I call him, bc he so enjoyed sitting and contemplating the sun, like The Story of Ferdinand.

How do writers come up with these ideas! Maybe Ann Leckie fell asleep while reading The Fifth Season and had strange dreams. And that's how she had the idea for The Raven Tower.

It ended quite suddenly for me because I was only at 90% -- then the last page. (The rest being acknowledgments, character list, reviews and *two* previews of other books.)

So -- this is a happy ending, isn't it? I think it's happy? Iraden will have a new system of government, with a better and wiser ruler than the Raven God. And a peaceful alliance with the northern territories, led by Myriad. Iraden can unite under Gospoth, and the north under Myriad, and have peaceful productive maritime relations. They will revive that Assembly of the Peoples, and have diplomatic ways to deal with the Tel and Xuluh. Am I reading that right?

Or, is it unhappy? - GOSPOTH used to be peaceful, but is now angry because of his enslavement under the Raven Tower. He used to like milk and flowers but now with that recent human sacrifice he's got a taste for blood. He allowed the Xuluh Snake God to kill Mawat, tells Eolo and Tikaz to head west for their own protection because he is about to wreak revenge upon Vastai with earthquakes. Dozens of Northern ships are sailing toward Iraden with Myriad at their head, and he will allow them to rape and pillage.

How do others read this ending?

[Bonnie]

Also, ANTI-TWIN BIAS. Will no one stand up for the twins!?
And what about fraternal twins, how does Iraden factor them in?

=============

Here is my moral take-away from the book. Ferdinand:

At any rate, that being the case, why should I care if I lay under layers of rock the whole time? Why, as long as I’d been in this world already, should I care if my end came in another millennia, or a hundred of them? What sort of urgent business did I have in the world that I did not want to leave it? When I had spent my long time listening to fish, or staring at the stars? What was the point, what had ever been the point, in my constant, unconscious effort to keep that view of the stars?

None except that I had wanted it. It had made things pleasant for me.

What was the point, when short-lived humans would die anyway, and others take their place? And humans, who by my reasoning had less ground than I to think anything they did might matter in any real way, did far more. They traveled. They changed the landscape in large and small ways. They put plans in motion that they knew they would not see completed—plans that would benefit not them but their children and their grandchildren. When I—I had kept myself clear of dirt and leaves and snow.

Perhaps the length of one’s life was not important—except in the way it is to so many living beings, desperate to avoid death. Perhaps, long or short, it mattered how one spent that time.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

What I loved about this is the mythology of it. When authors take on their own very unique set of gods that aren't just re-skins of Greek or Egyptian or something, I'm always curious how far they'll go. And here Leckie goes for it. From conception to maturation to purpose, we watch a pantheon grow and contract and how that shapes civilizations. I thought the mechanic of belief and ability to perform was really interesting and felt like it played a lot with the ideas that Pratchett sketched in Small Gods. However, where he went humor, this book was like "yeah, I'm gonna make a whole mythology from scratch AND do a retelling of Hamlet, just for kicks." Really liked the effortless parallels there, and the new spin by having it told through the eyes of a God and the Horatio character.

I really need a reason for books telling me what "I'm" doing, and the two that have done so successfully have both involved sentient rocks, interestingly enough.

Bonnie, I really like those quotes! I think they do a good job summing up our narrator.

[Brian]

I am having a really hard time reviewing this book and I think it has to do with the most abrupt ending I can recall reading.

I thought the power of the gods to speak truths was such a cool concept. I really enjoyed the work arounds they had to use just to have conversations and the sometimes fatal consequences of a poorly phrased truth and then the power struggle in the city.

I was not a big fan of Mawat. I mostly got "spoiled child having a tantrum" vibe and didn't much care that he died at the end. Eolo was cool. The love triangle between him, Mawat and Tikaz felt awkward to me and left me a bit unconvinced that Eolo and Tikaz would want to just leave together and stay together.

I imagine the ending was so short on purpose so that we, the audience, would be forced to imagine what paths the gods and people would take. I saw Bonnie's interpretation of two possible outcomes and I couldn't be convinced one way or the other. I wish this book either had about another fifty to a hundred pages earlier in the book to develop the characters a bit more so that I would be inclined toward an end of the story or just a handful of pages at the end to steer me toward the author's intended end of her story. It makes me feel that she was afraid to choose an ending and left it to the audience to make up their own.

There was plenty of good ideas in this book but the ending left me feeling confused and unsure.

[Aaron]

I didn’t really like the first person perspective. I can’t really articulate why at the moment as I’m still trying to understand why it made me feel removed from the story instead of inside it.

I liked this book. The mythology was great and I was really invested but I was ready for 200 more pages. It’s really the only reason I didn’t love it.

[Ruth]

Bonnie wrote: "The God of Strength and Patience of the Hill = acronym GOSPOTH, or also "Ferdinand" as I call him, bc he so enjoyed sitting and contemplating the sun, like The Story of Ferdinand.

H..."
I’m interested that you refer to GOSPOTH as “he”. What made you think of it as “he”?
I thought of it as “she” (at least partly because I listened to the audiobook which has a female narrator) but I don’t think a gender was ever specified, or possibly even relevant for a god in the form of a sentient rock. Ann Leckie did some very interesting stuff with gender in her Imperial Radch trilogy and this book of course has a prominent trans character

[Bonnie]

Ruth wrote: "I’m interested that you refer to GOSPOTH as “he”. What made you think of it as “he”? I thought of it as “she” (at least partly because I listened to the audiobook which has a female narrator) but I don’t think a gender was ever specified, or possibly even relevant for a god in the form of a sentient rock..."

1. Seemed more friendly to write He than It. More personal to use s/he than they.
2. Plain old male gender bias! I wavered between He or They and settled on He for GOSPOTH as a He, with Myriad (who was a meteorite) as a She. Probably for no better reason than GOSPOTH is a god/ruler. SAD! You are right of course a rock, who or which has existed for millennia, does not even have a biological gender.

An hour before I saw your post I was reading news, including a column by a doctor now learning to do second-trimester abortions as well as first-. I pictured the doctor as a man until reaching the "I have been pregnant three times" sentence. The logical #1 part of my brain immediately scolds the #2 heuristic part and says Come on! You know doctors can be male or female. (I have same problem with lawyers and accountants.) now I should be adding "they/non-binary" into this mental rebuke.

I continue the struggle against this bias. :-|

[Ryan, Your favourite moderators favourite moderator]

One of the interesting things that I'm picking up from this book is how it makes gender... nonessential. Even beyond the lack of a need of a Rock God (Jack Black) to have a gender, this story being told from the perspective of an omnipresent, but not omniscient God helps to make gender rather irrelevant yet accepting of all.

[Ryan, Your favourite moderators favourite moderator]

I say omnipresent but for accuracies sake I should say state that they could and would be omnipresent if they actually cared to do so, which GOSPOTH doesn't. At least not yet.

[Kaa]

Allison wrote: "I really need a reason for books telling me what "I'm" doing, and the two that have done so successfully have both involved sentient rocks, interestingly enough."

I think these may also the ONLY two books I've read narrated by sentient rocks... I wonder if there is something specific about trying to write from the viewpoint of a rock that inspires authors to use second person?

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

these are the kinds of questions we ought to be asking if authors!

[Ryan, Your favourite moderators favourite moderator]

"I was wrong to ignore your advice. I won't ever do that again!"

2 minutes later...

"I don't need your advice I'm doing what I want!"

[Paul]

For me this was a good but flawed book.

I had huge problems with the start and the second person/first person. I had no idea what was going on as it made no sense. I'm glad I did carry on as, in retrospect it did make sense, and I grew to like it. I re-read the first chapter after finishing, and it revealed a lot that I'd missed first time round.

Greatly enjoyed the god/magic system and world building and this was the best part of the book. I much prefered the *I* sections which was the Rock! God!s story.

The *you* sections were less good, because it contained lots of stupid people doing stupid things. Mawat was particularly annoying, despite having a wise friend, even saying that he trusts Eolo and knows that they offer the best advice; every time does the exact opposite. And we are expected to believe that Mawat is the wise strategist compared to the complete idiot Airu

I didn't like the ending either. Way too abrupt and not satisfying. Yes, old Rock! God! is free. Gets his revenge? dunno. The Raven is already dead and it's not the people of Vastai's fault.
What about properly ending Eolo and the others stories?

It didn't help that the book ends at p323 of 345 on the kindle, so I was expecting a final chapter from the *you* perspective as they lead the town folk to safety and the tower falls.

[Beth]

I reread this for the BOTM, and I expected to have more to say this time, but I'm not really sure what to make of it. I really liked GOSPOTH but it was harder to connect with the 2nd person narrative.

[CBRetriever]

OK, it did get better and easier to read as I continued, but the ending felt really rushed

[Ann]

Brian wrote: "I am having a really hard time reviewing this book and I think it has to do with the most abrupt ending I can recall reading.

I thought the power of the gods to speak truths was such a cool conce..."

I also felt like the ending just dropped off. Kind of a let down

[Ann]

I liked the god Strength and Patience and Myriad but I never really felt like I got to know the Raven. I liked Eolo but really wanted more of their story since we only got bits and pieces. I feel like I did get a decent backstory on Mawat, but the only likable part of him was that he trusted Eolo. The story was okay, but I really didn't understand what the overall message was and the ending just stopped. Overall, I just wanted more out of this story but it was a fun read but I wouldn't recommend it to people.

[Jen]

What I found interesting about this story and the way it was told was that, from the time we figure out who's narrating the second person side of the story - an ancient god in the form of a rock from the dawn of time - we didn't know what it's motivation was. Unlike a human narrator, whose motivations we might recognize and have probably seen a million times before; here is a being that not only stays out of the game-playing, agreements, and disputes of the other gods and their followers, but who is also content to sit and think for human lifetimes, millennia. So what could it possibly want? And why did it then single out Eolo and direct this entire narrative to him? It was an enduring mystery that lasted until the last page of the story. That was what made this book unique.

The rest was fine, although I was confused about the differences between the nations and a lot of the finer distinctions of the different nationalities slid past me, and we never really know how Mawat felt about Eolo and why (trusted advisor? but why? Agreeing with others above that he never actually took his advice so..)

[Will]

really interesting to read these comments. I'm struggling a bit to remember the details even though it wasn't that long ago that I read it! However I don't remember finding the ending abrupt like others did although I do remember the pace picking up quickly.

In general I really enjoyed the perspective of the narrating god, their ruminations on how magic worked, and how they thought about things. Their personality really came to life and resonated for me, and felt very authentic somehow as an ancient god who is a rock!

[Chris]

So I'm a bit late to the party, but I found this one fascinating the entire way through. The first/second person thing never bothered me at all... I mentioned similar in the other thread, but it felt like we were reading a letter or a journal entry, a reminiscence of Strength and Patience's.

The lore behind the gods and the world and how it all worked tied so neatly into the narrative of the present day events that it felt natural when it all linked back up. The ending, I agree it was sudden in that you might not expect it to be about to be over several pages before, but at the same time I felt the story had said by that point everything that it needed to. I don't really feel that there were loose ends left from the past to tie up, only a question of where things might go in the future.

S&P's connection with humans was really interesting too. Why take to Eolo indeed? When Ard Vusktia was about to fall, "the Millstone" bade the four attendants flee and was pleased that they got away. I wonder if, had Eolo been born in the north before all the events of the story had taken place, whether he would have been a priest of Strength and Patience's. Eolo seems like the kind of intelligent and thoughtful individual that might have found himself on such a path had circumstances differed.

This kinda stuff is what I really love in a fantasy setting, unique and interesting world and systems of magic, so neatly knitted into the story being told. This was right up my alley.

[YouKneeK]

I’m another late one – I just finished this today.

1. What did you think of the setting/world?
The setting didn’t really register with me too much beyond the broadest strokes of forest, town, tower, hill, etc. But I did think the world-building was cool. I don’t always enjoy stories that feature gods, but I liked the way they were developed in this story, and I especially loved the concept of how they exercised their power by speaking something to make it true, and how careless words could kill them.

2. What did you think of the characters?
I liked the main ones, Eolo and “Strength and Patience”. I was never super attached, but I cared about what happened to them. Mawat was annoying. I was interested in him and wanted to learn more about him, but I expected more from him. The part Ryan was referencing above in message 14 was so exasperating that, like Brian (message 6), I almost didn’t care that he was killed at the end.

Some of the other characters, like the people Strength and Patience considered to be its priests, and like Tikaz, seemed interesting to me, but they weren’t given enough page time for me to form much of an opinion.

3. Do you think Strength and Patience of the Mountain is the Raven God, and when did that happen, if so?
I definitely think “Strength and Patience” and “Raven” were two separate entities. During the battle between the two sets of gods, they were on different sides -- the Raven was one of the main aggressors and Strength and Patience was helping with the defense against him.

The way I understood the story, winning that battle greatly depleted Raven of his strength. While Strength and Patience was still unconscious, he hooked it up to that system that would keep it spinning so he could use its power. So I think Strength and Patience was performing most of the feats that were attributed to Raven from that time forward, but doing so against its will.

4. Overall thoughts?
I thought the pacing was really uneven. I struggled through the first half, because the parts told by Strength and Patience about its own history, while somewhat interesting, didn’t really hold my attention. I wanted to read more about what was going on with Eolo. The second half was much more interesting to me, both the parts about Strength and Patience and the parts about Eolo.

The ending was exasperating. All sorts of new issues were introduced right near the end and then not resolved at all. Apparently this was intended to be a standalone, with possibly other books to be written in the same world at some point but not as a direct sequel. However, to me this felt like the first book in a series where the author introduces problems in the first book that will be resolved or at least built on in the next book. Even if we consider that this story is basically about Strength and Patience since the god was the narrator telling its own story, even from the perspective of only caring what happens to Strength and Patience, there isn’t a satisfying ending. What’s to stop somebody else from repairing the spinning contraption and taking advantage of it again? There aren’t many people left alive who saw it down the stairwell, but I don’t think it would take a major logical leap to discover that the contraption was recently broken around the time the people started experiencing major problems that they’d previously been protected from. Otherwise, if given the choice to decide for itself, will Strength and Patience choose to help the people even though it cares nothing about most of them? Will it try to find a way to leave? Will it respond to people who try to talk to it or will it withdraw and just observe for a few more decades?

I didn’t have any trouble with the mix of first and second person narrative styles, I thought it was made pretty clear who was talking and who was being talked to, and it didn’t impede my reading. However, I never thought it served any clear purpose. I thought in N. K. Jemisin’s Broken Earth trilogy the 2nd person perspective eventually made perfect sense and served a logical purpose. In this book, it felt more like a gimmick to me that ultimately didn’t serve a purpose. When exactly was Strength and Patience telling this story to Eolo? There is a point near the end where it changes from past tense to present tense, but there certainly wouldn’t have been time for it to tell its whole story during that climactic moment. And if it was telling its story all along for the past several days… why? Eolo wasn’t listening to it, and couldn’t hear it, or at least wasn’t aware of hearing it. What purpose did it serve to tell Eolo his own story? I could see where he might have benefited, or at least been interested in, learning the background that Strength and Patience told about itself, but if he didn’t understand what he was being told, then again – what was the point? Why not at least wait until he could understand and would listen attentively?

I gave it 3.5 stars because of my complaints, but I rounded up to 4 on Goodreads because I did enjoy it pretty well while I was reading it, especially during the second half.

[Kaia]

I finished this today, and I'm glad to see I'm not the only person who found the ending abrupt! That was my main reason for not giving the book 5 stars - I wanted more of an ending. Edited to add - I also never figured out a good pronunciation for Ard Vusktia, which interrupted my reading flow. - Bonnie's correlation above between The Strength and Patience of the Hill and Ferdinand is also hilarious and very apt. :-D

I especially enjoyed the world-building and mythology. The parts narrated by Strength and Patience where we learn about the world were my favorite aspects of the book. The main plot line with Eolo and Mawat wasn't as interesting to me, and I didn't care much for Mawat at all. I was surprised how little his death impacted me. I did like Eolo, though, and I wish there had been more explanation for why Strength and Patience was so drawn to him, though Eolo does have a lot of the same qualities as past humans that S&P connected with.

I suppose it wouldn't have worked as an ending, but I really wanted to see Strength and Patience returned to its old spot in the north, finding a new priest to talk with and contemplate the world. Maybe after it destroys the tower, it can roll its way across the water and make it back to its old place? Or perhaps the Myriad can help? (I also really liked the Myriad and the friendship between the Myriad and Strength and Patience. You can clearly see how they are different, but they love each other despite also being frustrated by each other at times - though probably more on the Myriad's side.)

I'm also reading Ann Leckie's Lake of Souls: The Collected Short Fiction. The stories at the end are all set in the same universe as The Raven's Tower, and I've been holding off on reading them until I read this one. I'm interested to see if there are any set after this story ends.