Red Queen
discussion
Maven or Cal???
Zoe wrote: "Maven's gay"I'm assuming you don't mean that literally, and so am assuming you are replacing the word "stupid" or "bad" with the word "gay," which is highly offensive. Please don't do that.
No, I mean't he literally is. I'm not the kind of person to use that in a derogatory sense.
Jehona wrote: "I was waiting for a comment like yours, Jacquelyn. ^^"<3 There's just no sense in that, but sometimes people don't realize that it's offensive until someone points it out so I'm always willing to do that nicely... The first time :P
Zoe wrote: "No, I mean't he literally is. I'm not the kind of person to use that in a derogatory sense."In that case, why do you think Maven is gay? He seemed pretty doggone attached to Mare.
Jehona wrote: "What makes you say he is gay? Because even though I would hate that, I could sort of see it happening."Really? I definitely can't! lol. I wouldn't care BUT I would be surprised.
Jehona wrote: "VERYYYY FISHHYYYY..."I hear great minds think alike! :3
Jehona wrote: "LOL, yes! But I don't really know why, maybe cause there really hasn't been any homosexual's (has there?!!?), and it would be a pretty crazy twist, which Aveyard is famous for. But I would hate it ..."Oooh. I'm definitely on team Cal! lol. I am still looking for that perfect book with a decently diverse cast of characters including characters of color and gay characters (like HP). I just personally don't see it with this one with Maven xD
I'm merely joking just because these threads are always so serious. Jacob or Edward?
Maven or Cal??
Peeta or the other dude? (The Hunger Games)
Warner or the other dude? (Shatter Me)
Jack and Cole (Everneath. Bless Cole's heart) ??
I really don't like Maven though because while he's not gay... not that we know of... this book has the serious issue of oedipus complex and from when Maven complains about always being behind his brother (he was even introduced in the book as like some second hand love interest) Maven was never the one.
Zoe wrote: "I'm merely joking just because these threads are always so serious. Jacob or Edward?
Maven or Cal??
Peeta or the other dude? (The Hunger Games)
Warner or the other dude? (Shatter Me)
Jack a..."
Ugh! Glad I'm not the only one that saw the Oedipus thing. D:
I personally am also waiting for a book without the freaking love triangle. Like, as though these characters don't have enough on their plate, they then have a second love interest distracting them from the things that REALLY matter.
Jehona wrote: "Well even though I hate the series cause its completely stupid and boring and just terrible, The Mortal Instruments has a huge variety of characters that quite a bit of people can identify with, I ..."Aww I actually adore the Mortal Instruments series!! But you are right they are diverse, moreso than most popular series at least. Yes, Dumbledore is gay and I love Cal because he's always been honest with her and has a heart of gold. He does things he doesn't really want to do because he feels like he has to, but he's learning that sometimes it's okay to put your foot down and stand your ground, even if he learns that too late. He cares about Mare for reasons he probably shouldn't and falls for her so quick and so hard that he's really helpless to stop himself.
I KNOW OHMYGEE GALE WAS LIKE THE BROTHER HAHAHAHAHAHA Adam just turned into a little bitch towards the ends of the books. it was like some weird infatuation with Juliette and man, Warner was such a great character.
Like the worlds ending, someone's dying, and then lets just add a love triangle.
Now, don't get me wrong though, I appreciate a good love triangle and I don't mind them when they're written well c: I'm all for two hot guys (at least hot in my mind) but with Maven in Cal, first there wasn't really a lot of development because Mare's got a shit ton of other things to do like I don't know ? Live in a racist society? Worry about her family? Plan a rebellion? But also the other thing in the way of me liking BOTH of the boys was that Maven was just a pawn. Like a wet tissue used by his mother who's probably going to be thrown away later. And then Cal... @Jehona... yeah, he was pretty slimy.
Mare just had too much confidence in thinking that the two boys, people who didn't even know she existed until recently, just lurved her so much that they'd give up everything for her, and that's another thing that I disliked about the book.
When I read over it again, really the beginning is perfect. There's top notch quotes and lots of feels- but as soon as the author starts pulling all these different ideas that she TRIED to make successful- it became too much and it was like a muddy blur of a book.
Jehona wrote: "Jacquelyn wrote: "Jehona wrote: "Well even though I hate the series cause its completely stupid and boring and just terrible, The Mortal Instruments has a huge variety of characters that quite a bi..."I definitely didn't read that scene that way. I read it that he was trying to help her because he knew that if she fudged that up the Queen would only be even more upset with her than she already was and that he got carried away with his own feelings. I think he's demonstrated plenty of times that he is smitten with her. It all started when he didn't arrest her for her attempted theft and then when he listened to her and tried in his princely way to help her. And it just keeps going from there. I mean, he does douchey stuff because he's a guy and no guy is perfect, even fictional ones, but overall 100% better than Maven. I love how even you yourself admit that you like him because he's messed up! XD
When discussing Maven, I think we should all keep an open mind. Sure, he seems pretty messed up and my Cal baby is the best, but I see how he is good in some degree. Who knows? It's all up Ms. Aveyard. Although I wouldn't mind AT ALL if Cal and Mare end up happily TOGETHER AND IN LOVE and Maven DIES A HORRIBLE DEATH.
Just kidding.
But for real though.
Jehona wrote: "Cynthia wrote: "When discussing Maven, I think we should all keep an open mind. Sure, he seems pretty messed up and my Cal baby is the best, but I see how he is good in some degree. Who knows? It's..."Hahaha. I think I am. Hmmmm... That was horrible of me, wasn't it?
Jehona wrote: "Jacquelyn wrote: "Jehona wrote: "Jacquelyn wrote: "Jehona wrote: "Well even though I hate the series cause its completely stupid and boring and just terrible, The Mortal Instruments has a huge vari..."Funny you bring up R&J and Heathcliff and Cathy because I wrote a huge paper on them. I'll tell you why I don't consider those two good parallels for any actual romantic pairing; Shakespeare used R&J to call out the stupidity of the "love at first sight" concept as well as the concept of "Star-crossed lovers," because if you want to make it work, you'll make it work.
Also, I completely disagree about your view that Cathy is a bitch. I view her as a victim of her time. She was smart to choose Edgar because she knew that she had the chance to live comfortably and that was the smart decision, though I will admit the soulless and sad option. Heathcliff is the maniac because regardless of his heartache, his response DEFINITELY should not have been what it was.
Jehona wrote: "Ohhhh shit, I fell right into your claws! I dont really have an intelligent response for you, so Im not gonna attempt to bullshit my way back into some other rut. However, I would like to talk abou..."Haha! English Major Syndrome right thur.
How did Cathy do both men dirty? Sure she never stopped loving Heathcliff, but she didn't make herself ill on purpose, she didn't kill herself or anything or encourage Heathcliff to do the crappy things he did.
Of course it's okay to feel bad for Heathcliff, but it still shouldn't excuse him. And it's funny how that works out that had she waited, they still would have been wealthy, but I feel like if he hadn't been rejected he wouldn't have gone off to do what he needed to do to get wealthy. And besides that, I'm pretty sure the only way he got Wuthering Heights was by dastardly deeds if I remember correctly, so even that part of the point contributes to the nasty things he's done.
Yeah, R&J is one of those topics I don't need to get started on because I'll never shut up! XD
Jehona wrote: "LOL Im still in middle school, but I'm hoping to get there someday!! I would love to be an editor or something! Maybe try to keep things like 'beautiful disaster' (which was all disaster, no beauti..."Do reread it! And from one hopeful future editor to another, you are on the right track! Keep reading and keep thinking critically! Also, I share your agenda to keep horrid books like the aforementioned off the shelves. I myself am working toward my BA in English with a concentration in Romantic and Victorian Brit Lit as well as some special Shakespeare expertise.
I think you are thinking as a modern young woman, but you should reread it through the eyes of an 18 year old woman in Bronte's time. Her self preservation in that time period was not too far because she had literally no choice but to strike a smart match. What was she going to do? Work? No way. Women couldn't work. Women procreated and took care of the house. Also, I don't think she necessarily abandoned him... If you'll remember he fled soon after he overheard her conversation with the nanny if I'm not mistaken where she announces her engagement to Edgar. He left to better himself, but by the time he returned it was already too late and he was so disturbed from his early mental wounds that he caused all of the future grief, the extensive evils that you rediscovered.
Even though I like Cal, I'll go with the anti-hero, Maven, this time. Even Mare was somewhat torn. Though Maven betrayed her, there was a part of her that still cared for him.
I swear, even if Cal kills someone, I'll be like, "You go baby! So proud!"
Maven plotted with his mother to have his father, King Tiberius, killed. Their father wasn't exactly an angel. He ruled with cruelty and tyranny. Perhaps Cal would have been a different kind of ruler, but maybe not. He certainly wasn't the rebel child that Maven secretly was. Despite what he already knew about Mare being guilty of treason as part of the rebellion, Maven still allowed her to live initially, whereas Cal immediately sided with his father when she pleaded for his help. Let's not forgot also when Maven tried to save Mare right before she was thrown into the Bowl of Bones. That's not to excuse his other actions. But I think there's more to him than meets the eye. "He knows I’m sinking fast, a stone dropping through the river. And he wants to drown with me.” ~Mare
I am so on Maven's side. From the beginning I really hated Cal, and after Maven's betrayal I was like, "I STILL LOVE YOOOU!"
Cal spoiler: he was the one for here since the beginning. If you go back and read it knowing how Maven really is. There will be no team maven lol.
Serena wrote: "Cal spoiler: he was the one for here since the beginning. If you go back and read it knowing how Maven really is. There will be no team maven lol."That's what I've been preaching! It's true!
I would like to think that Mare is going to end up with Maven because I REALLY LOVE HIM. But I really don't think that's going to happen. Aveyard is kind of predictable (not that she didn't get us with that first book ;))and she's not really unique in any way. Not hating on her I think that her story is really good but it's just predictable. And I don't see Maven ending up with Mare. EVEN THOUGH I REALLY WANT HIM TO.
Cynthia wrote: "Okay, I have always - from the start - loved Cal. Now, if you feel more angled towards Maven, I will respect that because I am a diplomatic, sensible person. (Although harm may befall you if you do..." SPOILERS
I like how you put it, as I liked Maven until he betrayed Mare. I hope they don't end up together, as I don't think I could forgive him (I don't think Mare could too, as Maven had Shade killed). Or Mare could just not be with anyone, as she is strong herself.
I like how you put it, as I liked Maven until he betrayed Mare. I hope they don't end up together, as I don't think I could forgive him (I don't think Mare could too, as Maven had Shade killed). Or Mare could just not be with anyone, as she is strong herself.
Emily wrote: "Cynthia wrote: "Okay, I have always - from the start - loved Cal. Now, if you feel more angled towards Maven, I will respect that because I am a diplomatic, sensible person. (Although harm may befa..."...Spoiler alert? Please.
Jehona wrote: "Yellow Eccentricity wrote: "I am so on Maven's side. From the beginning I really hated Cal, and after Maven's betrayal I was like, "I STILL LOVE YOOOU!""Sammeee"
LOVE MAVEN!!!!! I feel like he's a really interesting character and everyone seems to forget that no one really knows who the true Maven is. Like Cal is the stereotypical YA love interest. There's so much more to see from his character and I want him and Mare to end up together so badly
TeamCal TeamMarecal Spoiler: I loved her and Cal from the START. Lots of chemistry but not typically cheesy. He had his own strong personality as did she. This is awesome because they always make the Prince a charmer whos just too perfect. And she chose to make him more real.She and Maven were boring. He was playing typical perfect guy until the end of course . I can't wait until they get their revenge on Maven
TeamCal and TeamMarecal.
Serena wrote: "TeamCal TeamMarecal Spoiler: I loved her and Cal from the START. Lots of chemistry but not typically cheesy. He had his own strong personality as did she. This is awesome because they always make t..."Couldn't agree more!!! Maven seemed WAY too good considering the type of mother that he had. Cal was edgy and I liked that
I don't understand people like Maven. He's mean, cruel, and betrayed Mare and his family. In the beginning of the book he was ok but the end he was horrible (Maven is just as cruel as his mother). I'm going with Cal.
My heart wants Maven and Mare to be together but logic says that will not happen.Maven hurts Mare a lot and she kinda despises him so I can't really see them being together in the end.
But Maven is a cinnamon roll. :'(
As long as it's not Kilorn, I'll be okay because I like Cal too.
Maven, up until the end, was such a loveable character, and I actually thought that maybe, just maybe, the younger/second best brother would get the girl..But then again, with how defeated Cal felt at the end of the first book, I think it may take a really long time for him to trust either Mare or Maven again
*Spoiler from Glass Sword*
I feel so bad for Kilorn... It always seems that when two people have been friends for a long time, one's in love with the other, but the person they're in love with doesn't know it. So I hope Kilorn, but otherwise, Cal. I have a hard time forgiving people who make their brothers kill their fathers. So, in the end, I at least hope Mare isn't with Maven. Or she could just be independant, there's no law saying that the female protagonist, at the end of each book, must have a relationship going on.
I feel so bad for Kilorn... It always seems that when two people have been friends for a long time, one's in love with the other, but the person they're in love with doesn't know it. So I hope Kilorn, but otherwise, Cal. I have a hard time forgiving people who make their brothers kill their fathers. So, in the end, I at least hope Mare isn't with Maven. Or she could just be independant, there's no law saying that the female protagonist, at the end of each book, must have a relationship going on.
Ok I don't get how you can choose Maven instead of Cal. Maven is an idiot, he is a psycho who cannot live without his mother. He killed his own father and you choose him to be with Mare? Cal loves Mare not just because she is the only one who he still got on his side, but because she is different for him and very special. So I am pretty sure in my decision - I prefer Cal.
Katrin wrote: "Ok I don't get how you can choose Maven instead of Cal. Maven is an idiot, he is a psycho who cannot live without his mother. He killed his own father and you choose him to be with Mare? Cal loves ..."^^^ So much this!
Cal just liked her straight from the beginning. He has a good heart because he tried to help her by giving her a job, saving her from the war. He didn't have to do that. And in fact, most Prince's would have killed her or had her executed for trying to pick-pocket him!
There's more to maven then meets the eye... That's all I can say!
I don`t get how people still ship mare and maven? I mean he literally abused her. his love for her is no longer love, it`s lust. he doesn`t even care that she no longer loves him. he just wants her for himself and that my friends is very abusive and controlling. I like maven as a villain, and I can see why he`s hurting so bad, but that doesn`t make it okay. I don`t think mare can change him. only he can change him.
allyy wrote: "I don`t get how people still ship mare and maven? I mean he literally abused her. his love for her is no longer love, it`s lust. he doesn`t even care that she no longer loves him. he just wants her..."It may be true and all... But IF and I mean IF your saying she should end up with cal then that's toooooo cliche for the readers. Maven on the other hand is something new and fresh that people don't get to see very often. Hence, I believe that maven has reasons for the things he did, because how can one person change so drastically! ✌️
Cal hands down! Mare will never get over what Maven did, I wouldn't either I'd want revenge.
Mainy wrote: "allyy wrote: "I don`t get how people still ship mare and maven? I mean he literally abused her. his love for her is no longer love, it`s lust. he doesn`t even care that she no longer loves him. he ..."Just wait till you read Glass Sword hun.
Maria wrote: "Mainy wrote: "allyy wrote: "I don`t get how people still ship mare and maven? I mean he literally abused her. his love for her is no longer love, it`s lust. he doesn`t even care that she no longer ..."LOL I did.. Aha... I still feel the same though...
Did people forget the part where Maven had a baby killed to get to Mare? How could a relationship ever come back from that. Im actually flabbergasted that this is even still a topic. I love Maven as a character.
I ship Cal and Mare
After Red Queen I could have gotten on board with Maven and Mare, but after sword of Glass there is noooo way!!
Ughhhh... Whatever!!! Anyone as long as it's not cal... Kilorns good too! Let's see mavens REAL side in book 3 in the palace when they're together! I don't know...TBH, I didn't read ALL of glass sword I just skimmed through it so I don't know ALL of mavens "evil deeds"... That's probably one of the reasons that it's not changing my perspective! I probably don't want to know either coz I want to see him redeemed and together with mare! No ones OTP should be criticised, peace out!
Leah wrote: "Cal, all the way. I was on Cal's team the first moment he entered the story. What really sold me though, was the dance lessons."Jen wrote: "I haven't finished the book yet. I am just about half trough but I would still like to say what I am thinking right know. I pretty much like both of them. Cal is the typical more badass guy and Mav..."
Yeah!!!! nrgggg. I want to tell you what happens to maven, but i shouldn't
Sophia wrote: "Missanniev wrote: "I disliked Cal from the start. Cliche'd, boring, the usual 'oh so very noble' crown prince... When Maven came along, I fell head over heels for him, even if I saw from the start ..."Nashalee wrote: "Team Mare ForEVEr!"
You are in for a BIG surprise!!!
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