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“I preferred the risks, rewards and opportunities of self-publishing to working with the world’s biggest publisher”
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Like DS, I'm an unknown author, but I'm starting to step out of the shadows. I started my personal ebook publishing company to maneuver around the dysfunction of the publishing industry. Traditional publishers will not talk to a new author who is not represented by an agent. Honest agents (as apposed to scam agents) will not talk to a new author. If you're a new author and an agent is talking to you red lights and sirens should be going off warning of the close proximity of a scam agent.
Since T posts the same messages in different groups, it's more advert than discussion.
Here's the Catch 22:Unless you're lotto-winner style lucky, no author who doesn't already have a fan base will ever be offered a six figure deal from traditional publishers.
Period.
But if you already have a fan base worthy of a six figure deal, self-publishing not only gives you greater creative control, but you can publish faster and more often...AND you'll earn far better royalties off sales.
So at that point you don't really need a traditional publisher.
Remember, that six figure advance is not going to be paid to you all at once. You'll get a certain amount up front, and a certain amount at scheduled times thereafter. On top of that, you won't get any additional royalties until such time as your royalties from sales exceed your advance.
So, let's say you're offered a $100,000 advance and 10% royalties on sales. If the book retails at $16, you'd make $1.60/book and would have to sell 62,500 copies to cover the advance.
Well...if you can sell that many books. Sink $10,000 in editing, book cover design and some marketing, price the book the same and sell it from CreateSpace and you'd get $3.35/sale and only have to sell 32,836 copies to earn back your investment AND the $100k in royalties. (This is based on a 450 page novel.)
If you sold the same number of copies as you'd need to break even on the advance from trad publishers...you'd be sitting on very close to $200k.
And, of course, since the pace of trad publishers is so creepingly slow, you'd probably have this novel out and earning money and new material close to publishing before the old school boys would be publishing this book.
BUT...starting from ground zero like most of us, traditional publishers wouldn't walk on the same side of the street as us, let alone give us a first glance. And discoverability is in the sub-zero range, so we're left with self-publishing and desperately trying to make our voices heard over the hordes of other unknowns.
C. wrote: "Like DS, I'm an unknown author, but I'm starting to step out of the shadows. I started my personal ebook publishing company to maneuver around the dysfunction of the publishing industry. Traditiona..."That's really not true. There are scams out there, and it can be hard to interest an agent, but there are reputable agents who will talk to unknowns, although they will be highly selective about which unknowns they want to talk to. There are also plenty of reputable small presses and even some imprints of the big boys who accept unagented submissions.
As to the original subject, a highly successful author with a following is looking at an entirely different equation than a new or even midlist author is.
I don't understand the statement that honest agents don't talk to new authors. Agents look for new talent and sign it up, it's what they do. It just isn't easy to stand out in the slush pile.
Katharine wrote: "I don't understand the statement that honest agents don't talk to new authors. Agents look for new talent and sign it up, it's what they do. It just isn't easy to stand out in the slush pile."Exactly.
As one agent put it, she had 4,500 people seeking representation and she picked two.You could be an extremely talented unknown author, and remain so due to the size of the pile, how tired someone was when they viewed your manuscript, and the agent's personal taste in writing.
Micah's comment was well said. If you already have a fan base and are making money with your self-published book, why go traditional? Isn't the main reason for publishing traditional to make money and aquire a large fan base? I did not want to give up any rights to my book, nor did I want to wait years to find an agent and publisher. Some topics are relevant now and shouldn't wait.
R.F.G. wrote: "As one agent put it, she had 4,500 people seeking representation and she picked two.You could be an extremely talented unknown author, and remain so due to the size of the pile, how tired someone..."
This is true, and you could also be number three or number four, or even number ten. However, those people, if they're persistent, will probably get someone else to talk to them eventually.
Traditional publishing isn't for everyone, but it's not necessarily an impossible dream, either.
I think it's important to recognize that there are significant advantages in having an agent/publisher, if lucky enough to garner their interest. Ability to concentrate on writing, as opposed to promoting is the first that comes to mind. So while you could, in theory, make more money self publishing by obtaining a higher royalty, if it takes twice as long to get there any advantage is lost.
DC,It really depends on the person, her/his situation, random chance, and so on.
As with many things right place/right time has its influence. People do win the Lotto despite the odds, just as they get struck by lightning and survive or are in the sweet spot of survivability in a blast zone.
I just love that we have so many options these days. Even if you're trade published there's no guarantee you will be able to find a publisher for all your books, so being prepared to self publish seems very wise to me. That said, the amount of publicity a traditional publisher can garner you means that even high selling self published authors can be boosted by a traditional publishing contract. Personally I would like to have a foot in both camps.
I do not want to waste my time on publishing or promotion - I want to invest my time in writing. I have a trad publisher now and they take care of the all that stuff. I get to write. I never wanted to get involved with self-publishing - the reputation of the industry is terrible. If someday I hit the six-seven figure income with my writing, I may start my own publishing company - then I can hire people to do the publishing and promotion, while I write.
I spent many years in the business world (Retired 2012). Self-publishing is a business and if you're not ready to work hard and put in the long hours, your business has little chance of success. Then you have to find some time to write too.
R.F.G. wrote: "DC,It really depends on the person, her/his situation, random chance, and so on.
As with many things right place/right time has its influence. People do win the Lotto despite the odds, just as th..."
Well, yes, but getting published really isn't random chance most of the time. Luck plays into it, as it does in many things, but persistence is important. Talent also plays a role (despite a couple of notable exceptions). So does flexibility, particularly in willingness for things like rewrites.
There are people with successful independent careers who might have had a good deal of trouble getting initial publishing contracts, or just don't feel like getting involved in the whole thing, but the whole "don't bother, no-one ever picks up new authors" is unnecessarily discouraging and not entirely accurate. It can be kind of like getting signed into a professional sport, but most people don't think of that as an impossible goal for an athlete, just unlikely for most of them. And just like there are different levels of going pro, there are different levels of publishing.
I'm self as well as traditionally published, and I definitely think self-publishing can be a viable option, but it's not necessarily the only one. By the way, I always make more off the traditionally published titles.
DC,At my age no matter how persistent I am, I can either focus on writing when I can while raising my kid or running the rat race. I'd prefer no fame and little money to having a stroke or heart attack.
For someone starting out or early in a career, I'd say do both.
Theresa wrote: "Isn't the main reason for publishing traditional to make money and aquire a large fan base?..."The thing with traditional publishers is, unless you're a hot shot flavor of the month new author, chances are you're going to get a very low advance and no real marketing. Your books won't be placed in the high visibility end caps (the big sellers get those). They won't shell out much (if any) money on advertising. And if you're lucky you'll get a few copies of your books on bookstore shelves, but you'll still be expected to do all or most of the marketing.
And for that you'll need to wait. A year. Maybe more. And even if you've written 4 more books in that time, you won't be able to publish them any time soon because of contractual agreements.
On top of that, if you're not contract savvy, you may end up with a contract with tons of loopholes that will allow the publisher to sell copies of your book at reduced royalty payments: discounted books, books sold in certain chain bookstores, books sold in independent bookstores, things like that might have reduced royalty payments...as this author found out:
http://kriswrites.com/2012/08/15/the-...
That's a great blog to look at for book business insight.
I'm not saying traditional is all bad or hopeless. But it can be a minefield, and it certainly isn't the "now you've got it made!" Utopia that a lot of people (still?) believe it to be. Smaller presses may be much better. I don't know.
I just look at the industry and can't help thinking that the big traditional publishers are bloated cows unable to maneuver fast enough in a rapidly changing business environment. They remind me of the music industry staring in the mid-to-late '90s, trying desperately to maintain a hold on an industry that's already moved in a new direction without them.
Micah,Then there are the people who think since they got a 'Traditional' contract all they have to do is write, when the publisher they signed with contracts one book at a time. Since acceptance of the next book may very well hinge on the personal taste of every acquisition editor at the house, the had-it-made author may or may not repeat their success.
Then there are the authors whose careers tanked due to circumstances outside their control i.e.: the publishing house folds killing sales of the author's last book, the publishing house was supposed to advertise and market but dropped the ball and the author's book sales were pitiful... Most of the time it's the author who pays the price in these cases.
Whether a Trad, Self, or hybrid, there are a great many pitfalls for the unwary.
And yes, it's an industry changing to fit new technologies and social trends.
Well, I'm published with a small press. I write specialty romance of a kind that's pretty much only available through small and e-presses. The second manuscript I sent out was accepted after a rewrite, so yes, I needed to put the work in, accept their suggestions, and not get discouraged, but the effort was worth it. Since then, that publisher has pretty much taken them as fast as I can write them. My usual time frame is a year to nine months from plot bunny to finished page. There was an exception to that "fast as I can write them", since they did not seem to feel the need to tap into the enormous market for LGBT Christian fiction. There are a couple of other things I take the self-published route with.
I don't get any advances, although I'm happy with my contracts (and it's not that unusual for small presses to trade low or no advances for liberal contracts). I own my characters. I can submit or publish anything I want at any time with anybody. I have to accept their cover art, but I'm usually happy with it and I don't have to either find someone or do it myself. I love my editor.
Almost everything I sell is in e-book format (this is true for my genre as a whole, however) but the professionally published titles are in a much better distribution network, and I don't have to worry about it.
I still have to do my own promotion/marketing, but my professionally published titles end up on popular blogs, and the publisher sends various opportunities our way. It's definitely easier to do it effectively, and I feel that my self-published titles benefit from the broader exposure.
There are writers who do well as indies who either prefer the control or have a niche and are making money but wouldn't look broadly marketable to a publisher, but it's not a one size fits all.
Personally, in terms of absorbing time and energy, I find the traditionally published titles much easier, especially after that first one, where there was both some nail-biting and a very extensive re-write. I write it, I send it, and I'm done until we're in the editing process. Even then it'a much easier because I'm not second guessing myself constantly.
It's also worth pointing out that I believe I am a reasonably competent genre author, not Tolstoy. I definitely don't want to insist that traditional publishing is the best way to go for everyone, but if that's what you want, or think you might want, there's no reason not to try. It's simply not true that no-one signs unknowns.
I believe you should write for passion, and because you enjoy it. If you do it for money (ie creating a series that really should only have been one book), your writing takes a beating.
I've been traditionally published before when I was a teenager and in my early twenties. That's why I'm glad to be indie, enough said.
Angel, I would love you hear your trad story.
Self-publishing works for me because I've read and read and read guidelines from publishing houses, books on how to get published and so on and the bottom line is - the stuff I write would not interest a traditional publisher. I don't want to compromise my visions to fit within their guidelines. I like the freedom to write the way I want to write.
Aye, writing to a guideline is often like building a custom house to a cookie-cutter plan.
BB. wrote: "^ Wonderful comment Dwayne"Thank you, BB.!
R.F.G. wrote: "Aye, writing to a guideline is often like building a custom house to a cookie-cutter plan."
'Xactly. Well, I understand why. Publishing houses do not exist to promote the art of writing, they exist to make a profit off the work of others. So, they set their guidelines and say, "this is what sells, so this is what you do." And they are right. That is what sells. And so you have a lot of mediocre books coming out that fit their blueprint and the customers buy them and love them because they fit what the publishers are showing them they must read. And so on. I have no real problem with it. There are people that will lap that stuff up, so why not order products that they want? I just don't want to be on the assembly line. Goes back to what I've said before, I write for myself. If others read it and get some enjoyment out of it, great.
I have nothing of substance to add - no real experience here. However, this is one of the most interesting discussions I have read, and I do thank you all for sharing your real experiences, as well as some opinions only. I feel like I am a traditional writer operating in a modern environment, and I am just a bit disoriented, but catching up.
Dwayne,This is why I'll home school my kid; in order to make certain she's actually literate.
Those TP authors who fight to bring some creativity to the market I'll applaud alongside their SP brethren and sistren (yes the last is a proper usage).
Time for me to turn into He-Who-Puts-Demon-Child-Abed.
I tried for years to attract a good agent and go the traditional way. I also tried and tried to get noticed by Harlequin. It was my biggest dream to see my romance novels on the shelves of book stores and supermarkets. And I would always cringe when I'd see the mailman stuff my rejected manuscript back in the mailbox. I'm here to tell you, I'm so glad they turned me down. And so thankful to Amazon Kindle for making it possible for everyone who dreams of becoming authors to have that chance. I thought because those agents and houses turned me down, I would never see my books come to life because it was all in their hands, they determined whether or not you succeeded. I could paper a house with the rejection letters I received.
Anyway, I couldn't be happier on my own. It's not in their hands anymore. I get to write what I want; I'm my own boss. I'm still kind of new to Kindle, but my fan base is starting to grow. I can't pay my mortgage with my sales yet, but I can pay a few bills. I'm willing to put in the hard work, and I wouldn't change it for nothing.
Would I turn down a six-figure deal if a publishing house came calling? After reading Micah's comment, I honestly couldn't say yes or no. I'd rather say yes I would. I like being on my own. If other Kindle authors can quit their jobs and write full-time because of their success, then I'd like to think I can too.
R.F.G. wrote: "This is why I'll home school my kid; in order to make certain she's actually literate.Those TP authors who fight to bring some creativity to the market I'll applaud alongside their SP brethren and sistren (yes the last is a proper usage)."
And unclren and auntren and cousinren.
There is something to be said for mediocrity. Some people like it in the box. Some people want to read in the box. Some people like feeling safe. Some people like playing it safe.
But, some of us attended Writers Workshops in the late eighties and got tired of being in a roomful of people that wanted to be Bret Easton Ellis. I wish I was kidding, but every other story in that workshop had a moment of someone looking at their reflection in a mirror while snorting cocaine. *yawn*
That's fine for some, but I don't want to be the next anything, I just want to be the first me.
Groovy wrote: "I also tried and tried to get noticed by Harlequin."
Funny you should mention them. Just yesterday I was looking over their guidelines for all their different lines of books to see if my romance ("The Asphalt Carpet") would fit. Nope. Harlequin would not touch it for anything. It doesn't come close to fitting any of their lines.
Dwayne wrote: "I was looking over their guidelines for all their different lines of books to see if my romance ("The Asphalt Carpet") would fit. Nope. Harlequin would not touch it for anything. It doesn't come close to fitting any of their lines. "You say that like it is a bad thing. It isn't! Their books are mostly crap.
Davida wrote: "You say that like it is a bad thing. It isn't! Their books are mostly crap."I haven't picked up a Harlequin since I was a teenager and thumbed through my mom's collection, just to see what they were like. I know they were crap back then.
Dwayne wrote: "Davida wrote: "You say that like it is a bad thing. It isn't! Their books are mostly crap."I haven't picked up a Harlequin since I was a teenager and thumbed through my mom's collection, just to ..."
Part of the difficulty publishing faces today is the long-term effect of guidelines and businesses defining what is acceptable or creative.
Hmmm. Funny that. I haven't noticed my publisher encouraging me to be mediocre. There's clearly a happy intersection between much of what I want to write and what they want to publish, but the only guidelines I need to follow are very broad--two or more male characters in a romantic relationship, no on-page heterosexual sex, and general industry standards about appropriate content (no bestiality, etc.) If I write something that doesn't work for them and I don't want to alter it (or it's so integral to the story that there's really no way to do so) I'm perfectly free to do what I wish with it. No-one drops me an e-mail and says "Please stop self-publishing gay inspirationals, you're embarrassing us."
As for Harlequin, while I do not personally enjoy most of that kind of romance, and do not write it, many readers do, and most of the writers of that kind of romance enjoy writing them and take their craft seriously. It looks easy to write because it's so formulaic, but I think that's deceptive.
Incidentally, Carina, their e-division, has much broader guidelines for submissions.
Preston wrote: "I believe you should write for passion, and because you enjoy it. If you do it for money (ie creating a series that really should only have been one book), your writing takes a beating."As a teen and into my twenties (well before I got serious about actually attempting to write anything myself), I used to read the author forewords. The guys I read tended to talk a lot about writing to spec and writing to deadlines.
Perhaps the fact that was what my favorite authors believed has greatly influenced my perception of what it means to be a professional author. They wrote because it was their job. I think that most of them happened to love their job, but I don't think they ever thought, "I'm doing this for the money. That's a bad thing."
I write because I really want to be a writer, so I guess you could say that I'm doing it because I love it. I'm certainly not a professional. The only thing I have for sale is a mediocre story in a lame anthology that a friend put together.
I only wish I could write as well as those guys who did it for the money.
Sorry, but I find your premise flawed.
Thanks.
Brian
D.C. wrote: "Hmmm. Funny that. I haven't noticed my publisher encouraging me to be mediocre."I browsed their website. What I saw on the covers were mostly blond-haired, blue eyed, muscular young men staring back at me. A good number of the covers were using the same images. It would seem that they don't really step out of their safe box and only publish stuff that's more or less like everyone else is doing.
Dwayne wrote: "D.C. wrote: "Hmmm. Funny that. I haven't noticed my publisher encouraging me to be mediocre."I browsed their website. What I saw on the covers were mostly blond-haired, blue eyed, muscular young ..."
Did you look at the submission guidelines? They take much broader romance categories than Harlequin does. It is still genre fiction, if less rigidly formulaic.
Many publishing houses have a signature cover look. It helps create the brand.
Brian,I can understand your view as well as Preston's. I think part pf the disconnect people have when they talk about certain professions is due to perceptual bias, because as adult our paradigms are still founded on what we learned when we were young.
There are still times when being a paid professional has a negative connotation, even though the persons practicing those professions do so to support their families.
When it comes to supporting a family, people do what they have to do to help their families survive.
If you write because something inside you keeps driving you to write and you strive to achieve the highest level of mastery the craft you can, it's not a bad thing. What you consider mediocre when weighed against your favorite authors, others may see as fairly well-written and worthy of traditional publishing.
Perhaps the premise would have been better stated: when money is the only reason a person does something, when there is no passion and no drive to come as close to the ideal of perfection that one can, then the endeavor eventually suffers.
The man who did my cover art has won awards for his artistry and his writing, and he earns decent money from it. But the drive or love of what he does shows in his work, and that's the difference that has earned him his reputation.
Keep writing.
D.C. wrote: "Did you look at the submission guidelines?"I actually did. If I recall, they want stories that are medical related, military, someone pondering what to do with their life... and one other thing. 10K - 40K. And I would assume it has to be romantic and homosexual. That may work for what you write, and that's great. But, the story I mentioned earlier would not fit in with that.
Dwayne wrote: "D.C. wrote: "Did you look at the submission guidelines?"I actually did. If I recall, they want stories that are medical related, military, someone pondering what to do with their life... and one ..."
Were you on MLR or Carina?
You just described MLR's current open calls. And yes, they have to be romantic and homosexual. And it's a great press for m/m writers, but it is very specific.
Carina (and I've never actually submitted to them, but may someday) is an e-division of Harlequin. They publish romance and some other genre fiction, but in much broader categories than Harlequin traditionally does.
R.F.G. wrote: "Brian,I can understand your view as well as Preston's. I think part pf the disconnect people have when they talk about certain professions is due to perceptual bias, because as adult our paradigm..."
RFG,
I can respect your restatement of the premise.
Sort of like how there are lots of football players coming out of college who have a ton of talent/abilty, but those attributes do not guarantee them any success in the NFL. Instead, it's the ones who have the passion to apply hard work in addition to their natural ability who tend to have the highest levels of success.
D.C. wrote: "Carina (and I've never actually submitted to them, but may someday) is an e-division of Harlequin. They publish romance and some other genre fiction, but in much broader categories than Harlequin traditionally does."Ah. Gotcha. I'm about to head out for a few hours... running an errand and doing some writing at the library. I will check out Carina when I get back online. Thanks!
Dwayne wrote: "D.C. wrote: "Carina (and I've never actually submitted to them, but may someday) is an e-division of Harlequin. They publish romance and some other genre fiction, but in much broader categories tha..."You're welcome!
Brian wrote: "RFG,I can respect your restatement of the premise.
Sort of like how there are lots of football players coming out of college who have a ton of talent/abilty, but those attributes do not guarantee them any success in the NFL. Instead, it's the ones who have the passion to apply hard work in addition to their natural ability who tend to have the highest levels of success."
As with any endeavor, that bit of luck with right person in the right place at the right time is also a factor.
The last doctor I saw put in the hard work to become an MD, but as many times as she was willing to be judgmental, guess, suppose, and suspect when it came to my health, it was obvious she was lacking the drive or passion that it takes to be exceptional at what she does.
Success is something each of us defines for ourselves, and when we're luck we actually have a hand on what we've defined for a time.
For now, I'll just be happy to see my kid potty trained, because she farts like a Marine who's had too many MREs. While not my measure of success, it would be a half-step closer.
Stuart wrote: "I think it's important to recognize that there are significant advantages in having an agent/publisher, if lucky enough to garner their interest. Ability to concentrate on writing, as opposed to pr..."I think Stuart makes a good point. It is difficult doing the "leg work" of marketing/promoting your book, however you certainly learn a lot and meet many interesting people along the way.
Dwayne wrote: "Self-publishing works for me because I've read and read and read guidelines from publishing houses, books on how to get published and so on and the bottom line is - the stuff I write would not inte..."Nicely said!
I know, Dwayne, right? I mean, you're writing the same kind of romantic formula, you follow their guidelines to a T. What more do they want? I can't believe I wasted time and years trying so hard to get Harlequin to notice me. And if it weren't for Amazon's Kindle, which I thank God for everyday, I'd probably still be pathetically trying to impress them. And like Davida said, they're mostly crap now, anyway. I am soooo glad they turned me down over and over. Now, I can write my books on my own terms. People love my romance and suspense line. So, the way I see it, it's not that I wasn't good enough for Harlequin, they weren't good enough for me. And my royalty checks and my readers verify that.
I'm always baffled by members who delete their accounts upon either not liking the advice their given or for being too direct and broad for their own good.
If I could live from my earnings as a writer. I probably would go and self-publish, too, to be more independent.