Reading the Detectives discussion
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Whose Body?
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May 2022: Whose Body? - SPOILER Thread
I hesitate to say anything negative as I know many of you love this author's writing, but I was disappointed by how silly Lord P seemed. I listened to an audiobook, and the narration made his shallowness jarring. He seemed a spoiled rich child trying to investigate a murder to fill his empty life. In the end, it took the letter from the doctor to explain how the murder was accomplished. It was a complicated process though. All that elaborate planning and effort to exact his revenge. I loved his concern that his brain not be allowed to be damaged as he was sure everyone would want his marvelous brain to be studied.
Chris, how boring it would be if we all liked the same thing! I thought the opposite - reading the dialogue made Peter seem ridiculous, the audiobook, to me, showed how he could use the arrogant, flighty young aristocrat to his advantage, so witnesses underestimated him, sort of like the way Miss Marple pretends to be a ditzy old lady, but has a mind like a steel trap!I thought it worked with the narcissist Sir Julian, at least up to the end, the tense scene in his consulting rooms. Sir Julian was a terrifying villain - megalomaniac, vengeful, brilliant, yikes!
Mod
As I've read it before, I knew Sir Julian was the killer - odd that he has been so kind to the Russian exiles and yet is quite prepared to murder. I don't think the letter explaining why he did it is a very good ending, but it does mean his personality comes across - megalomaniac is right.
Judy wrote: "I think Peter seems silly early on, and sometimes he rambles on for too long. He should leave that to his mother, the Dowager Duchess, who I think is a wonderful character with her stream-of-consci..."I adore the DD! She’s terrific, but no empty headed booby - when Peter has a PTSD incident, she comes right up to take him to Duke’s Denver for rest. And she’s a rock with the American business man - picks up the cues, feels her way and deals with it perfectly, Peter need not have worried! And helping the new widow at the graveyard, identifying the corpse (what’s left of him) - the DD is amazing, helps Lady Levy, keeps her cool in a horrific situation.
I wanted to add, first time I read this, and every time since, the reason for Peter’s dithery persona comes through in that PTSD scene. Once he realizes the full horror of what he’s dealing with, what Sir Julian has done, he becomes much more grave and steely. I’ve always found this book intense and moving- such a horrific crime, the revelations of Sir Julian’s confession letter, the pain Lady Levy and her daughter must endure…I felt Peter must feel like he has come face to face with malignant evil.
The Duchess is so politically incorrect, she wouldn't get away with it these days. A great character!I preferred the earlier books as the will they/ won't they saga with Harriet got me down.
Mod
It is a horrific murder for a GA mystery - definitely not cosy at all. Maybe that is one of the reasons for all the banter by Peter and the digressions about his book collecting, to counterbalance the horror of the descriptions of the body being dissected.
Judy wrote: "Susan in NC wrote: "I’ve always found this book intense and moving- such a horrific crime..."It is a horrific murder for a GA mystery - definitely not cosy at all. Maybe that is one of the reason..."
I agree, I always took it that way; with his war experiences, his breakdown, being dumped by Barbara, etc., Peter, a sensitive soul, has been through a lot, has to balance the bad with the beauty of his music,his books.
It is always good to have others' perspectives. You all have me reassessing my opinion about Peter!I do hope the powers-that-be didn't do as Julian wanted and study his brain as a genius but rather as a sick and evil mortal.
I think he will end up in Broadmoor (the Mental Hospital for the Criminally Insane). Julian might think he's a genius, but he is clearly mad as a hatter.
I love all the posts, in particular message 5 by Susan in NC. and Sir Julian was a truly terrifying murderer: the scene where Peter goes to consult him, OMG!
Jackie wrote: "I love all the posts, in particular message 5 by Susan in NC. and Sir Julian was a truly terrifying murderer: the scene where Peter goes to consult him, OMG!"
Thanks, Jackie! Yes, I agree, that scene is terrifying - the urbane evil displayed by Sir Julian, when we realize what he was willing to do, during an everyday consultation, in his own office, during broad daylight- chilling!
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Susan wrote: "I thought Sayers was uncertain about Wimsey in this book, which was fair enough as it was the first. It was like she was trying out the 'silly ass' persona, but trying to give him depth too. I agre..."I know, I couldn’t believe it! The spirit of The Great Game indeed (although with crazy evil doctors, not international espionage…but still great stakes). Peter displayed the same devil-may-care insouciance and stiff upper lip that must have seen him through his intelligence work in the war!
It seemes pretty obvious from the beginning that the body in the bathtub was not the missing financier. Did the police even bother to do an autopsy, or did they just rely on first impressions? Perhaps they would have gotten around to figuring that one eventually, but it seems like looking at things like teeth and fingernails would be one of the first things you do.
Mod
Fingerprints - Bunter looks at them, but there's no suggestion that the police have used them to try to identify the body. I haven't been able to find out (by simple googling) when it became routine to keep fingerprints on criminal records in the UK, so it's possible that even if the body had a record, there wouldn't have been the means to identify him.But I agree that the way the body is dismissed once it's found out that he wasn't Levy, as if it didn't matter who he was, since he was poor and flea-bitten.
Just finished this and enjoyed it a lot. I wasn't that keen when I first read it (a long, long time ago); this and Five Red Herrings are the only two of the Wimseys that I never re-read, but it was a lot better than I remembered. I had remembered who actually dunnit but little else, which helped my enjoyment, too.I agree with several people here that initially DLS overdoes Peter's Silly Ass persona and that his lengthy quotations get very annoying, but that did dissipate relatively soon (and he says himself that his monocle is very useful as a magnifying glass and if one wants be thought a fool, so it's plain that it's an act). I do love DLS's writing, though; the Duchess is plain fabulous and Bunter's letter to Wimsey is an absolute joy! (The few other Bunter reports scattered throughout the books are equally brilliant, as are the letters from the wonderful Miss Climpson, who is one of my favourite characters anywhere.)
I'm very glad to have read this again, so thanks for the nudge! (My review, is here if interested: https://www.goodreads.com/review/show... )
Judy wrote: "I remember the first time I read this, I was a bit disappointed that we learn nothing really about the man found in the bath except that he was very poor and how he died. It would have been nice to..."Agreed, although the point of him was to provide a reason to get Reuben Levy into the dissecting room without questioning, so he needed to get rid of that corpse. It was the ultimate foolishness on Freke's part not to drop that corpse in the water somewhere or leave him in a back alley-another poor unknown soul who would have disappeared into a pauper's grave, no questions asked. Although we wouldn't have had a mystery then!
ChrisGA wrote: "I hesitate to say anything negative as I know many of you love this author's writing, but I was disappointed by how silly Lord P seemed. I listened to an audiobook, and the narration made his shall..."I also found him rather annoying, and the absolute acceptance of the rights and privileges of the wealthy aristocrat jarring. Poor Bunter, called out at all hours to serve his master, when he would have to stay up after him to tidy up and wake up before him to have everything ready.
I also found myself mixing up Wimsey and Albert Campion in my mind-which one was written first?
Overall, I did enjoy this mystery, and liked Lord Peter and his entourage up to a point. Having read and thoroughly enjoyed these in my youth (40 years ago now?) I reread with mixed emotions-I'm much less accepting of the assumed privilege and wealth of Lord Peter and his family, the anti-semitism and stereotypes are jarring, and the disdain for the middle classes grates. Nonetheless, the characters we are meant to like are charming and enjoyable, and I like the pace and development of the mystery itself. The coroner's inquest was amusing, and it was interesting to see such a sympathetic portrayal of PTSD from that time.
Mod
By the publication dates on GR, Wimsey was 1923 and Campion in 1929.
I don't mix up Campion and Wimsey, but do Campion and Nicholas Blake's detective, Nigel Strangeways. That one was published in 1935. A new detective every six years?
Perhaps I should also add that these novels were written in the 1920s when the 'class' system was about at its height. what people object to now was the norm in thise days, it is necessary to accept them as being true to the period. Don't complain, deal with it!
Mod
This is Keith's post:
I have just finished reading the complete set by DLS and JPW
THis is the very first Wimsey story and really he is just a cardboard cutout here, Sayers has not yet had time to develop him as a character, He is extremely well fleshed out in her later books and her Oxford scholarly training really comes to the fore, As the series develops the characters really do take on lives of their own and the Peter/Harriet romance is very cleverly and subtly dealt with, (view spoiler)
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Good to hear you enjoyed it, Sid, and great review - thank you for posting the link.
Mod
I agree with your comments - I also found some of the attitudes you mention struck me more this time around, especially in the early chapters, although I got more into the book in the second half. I think Sayers herself is at times satirical about the class system even in the early books (the whole conversation between Bunter and the other gentleman's gentleman is classic!).
I think I remember reading somewhere that she also wanted to create a charwoman detective, which would have been a fascinating contrast with Lord Peter, although I may be getting mixed up with one of the other "Queens of Crime"! She did write short stories about the insurance salesman (I think?) detective Montague Egg, but he obviously didn't catch on in the way that Wimsey did.
Judy wrote: " I think Sayers herself is at times satirical about the class system"I think that's right, Judy - and because she was pretty poor (relatively speaking) when she started writing him, she wanted a 'hero' who didn't have to worry about money in the slightest, so a bit of a wish fulfillment for her.
I am one of the people who does dislike the silly assery of Whimsy in this book but, of course, he does pay for some of his unthinking privilege when he meets Harriet.
It has been a long time since I read 'Whose Body' last and had forgotten much of it although I have read all Sayers books several times. I have the Kindle 'annotated copy of Whose Body' now, the annotations are extremely amusing , I can't help laughing at some of the explanations etc clearly aimed at (usually) an American audience.Bearing in mind that this is her first attempt at a mystery and new characters in her mind, she is feeling her way with their development, Peter is rather OTT to begin with isn't he? He settles down into a more reasonable character as he matures in her mind. THis first iteration is just too silly for words and he has to become more adult as he develops through the whole series.
I read somewhere that when Sayers invented him. she deliberately gave him everything she didn't have as a form of escapism from her own situation,
Perhaps I should explain my comment that I has not read the book for a long time, I only skimmed it earlier as I was anxious to get through the GN which is my favourite. Now I'm taking my time with it and am enjoying the hilarious annotations in this new copy
I had not reread this book in a very long time. If my memories are not betraying me I liked it better this time. I'm glad Freke did not get away with suicide. Much to easy of a way out.
Mod
https://peschelpress.com/whose-body-a...
I think the silly ass thing is true, but also in character. Peter is recovering from the war and looking for a distraction. I got the impression that up to now his sleuthing has been theoretical or non-lethal (so the Attenbury emerald theft, rather than murder). This is the first time he's forced to confront what it means if he correctly identifies the murderer; another man's death on his conscience. It's no longer a game. Interestingly, if you jump forward to 'Busman's Holiday' he's still struggling with this conflict - he enjoys the game of detecting but has to accept the consequences.
You mean 'Busman's Honeymoon'. What helps him come to terms with it is the fact that by uncovering the 'real' murderer, he is saving an innocent victim and then accepts that he has found his metier
Mod
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
I made two unconnected comments. I was correcting 'Busman's Holiday' to the proper title, the other comment was concerning ;Whose Body.
Mod
Thank you, and sorry - I misread. Interesting thoughts about Wimsey's saving of the innocent person, Thipps, helping him to come to terms with his role in chasing down the murderer.
My apologies too Judy, I should have made myself clearer. Peter has a discussiion with his friend Parker who tells him that what he is doing for fun and disliking the end result is not a game but an important job saving the innocent. His reaction on the completion of a successful case is due to his PTSD and seems to be a fairly common occurrence throughout , dealt with very sympathetically by Sayers
Rosina wrote: "Fingerprints - Bunter looks at them, but there's no suggestion that the police have used them to try to identify the body. I haven't been able to find out (by simple googling) when it became routin..."Judy wrote: "I remember the first time I read this, I was a bit disappointed that we learn nothing really about the man found in the bath except that he was very poor and how he died. It would have been nice to..."
The Metropolitan police started using fingerprints in 1900. There are many indeoendent police forces in the Britain, based on counties and cities although they cooperate.
Mod
There have been radio versions though - I just had a look and see it was adapted in 1973 with Ian Carmichael reprising his TV role as Wimsey, Peter Jones as Bunter and Patricia Routledge as the Dowager Duchess. This version is on Audible. There was also a 1980s version with Gary Bond.
Judy wrote: "I don't think this book has ever been filmed, unlike most of the Wimsey books - I suppose all the business with climbing over the roof would have been difficult, as well as the focus on the dead bo..."Thanks, for some reason, it tickles my funny bone to think Hyacinth Bucket (I always hear Richard’s plaintive, “it was always pronounced “bucket” until I met you!”), got to play a Dowager Duchess! ;)
Jackie wrote: "that is funny!";)
I think this would have been the first LPW novel I read - our school library had a very wide selection of fiction - but it's not one I re-read often, partly because Wimsey hasn't, as Keith mentions above, matured as a character yet. He's nearly all mannerism and I think it's a bit of a shock to the reader when things get really serious at the end.
Mod
Yes, both Wimsey and Sayers improved with age.
We need to remember that Peter Wimsey (and later on, Harriet Vane) are merely figments of Sayers' imagination.. 'Whose Body' is Peter's first iteration and over the rest of the series she develops him in her mind to the mature character we now know. I wish she had written more about him and Harriet, she left 'Thrones and Dominations' unfinished at her death in 1957. Jill Paton Walsh completed the story quite seamlessly and then wrote another three stories following their edventures during WW2 and the very first of Peter's cases, the Attenbury Emeralds. I wish she had written more. She is fairly close to but not as erudite and well written as Sayers who is very clearly a scholar (she had one of the first University Degrees awarded to women) although Walsh does a reasonable job of it . I have Walsh's other stories about her character, Imogen Quy but not got around to reading them yet.I would have a problem without my Kindle. Before that I had shelves full of paperbacks which had to go when I moved to another flat, I started a long time ago with a very early Kindle which had no illumination and then bought a Kindle 3 (Paperwhite 1) when it came out, which I still have, A few months ago I bought a Kindle 11 (Paperwhite 5) which is marvellous!
I don't know what kind of kindle I have but I've had it for years. The only problem is, I can't see it very well if I'm sitting outside, certainly not if I'm in the sun. is the paperwhite better for that?
Jackie wrote: "I don't know what kind of kindle I have but I've had it for years. The only problem is, I can't see it very well if I'm sitting outside, certainly not if I'm in the sun. is the paperwhite better fo..."I suggest you invest in a new 2021 Paperwhite 5 It is Generation 11 of all the Kindles. It has a larger 6.8 inch screen instead of the 6 inch on the old ones, it is much clearer and better lit in all conditions, you can make the screen a warmer shade than the mainly blue screen on the old ones too which is less tiring to your eyes, It is (relatively) waterproof and the 8Gb capacity will hold many more books, If you want Audio books, get the Signature edition with 32Gb. As you have a very old model, Amazon have now stopped supporting all the old Kindles up to Kindle 5 so you are unable to purchase books from them for that old Kindle.
Physically the new Kindle is only 2 or 3 millimetres bigger than the old one in its case, The battery now lasts for several weeks instead of days, it now uses USB-C instead of micro USB for charging and downloading books from the internet. (You can still use your old Kindle for that)
Go to your Amazon a/c, 'Content and Devices', Click on 'Devices and that will show you which generation of Kindle you have registered together with its serial number
Thanks for that, Keith - it's really helpful. I have a Paperwhite 7th generation which I've apparently had for 5 years (it seems more like two!) and which I like very much. I paid the extra £10.00 for no "recommendations" (i.e. ads), btw. I wasn't sure it was a good idea at the time, but I bless the day now! I find it great to use, love the illuminated screen, have no problem in sunlight and, with about 900 books, have used less than 1GB of the available 4GB memory.I do wonder how long it will last, though, and your info is a comfort. If it goes phut, I'll know what to do.
BTW, I'm a bit miffed that Kindles have stopped accepting books in MOBI format by email. For years KIndles didn't support EPUB, which was a nuisance, so MOBI was my chosen download format from places like FadedPage, Gutenberg etc. - and now I have to convert them before emailing - which isn't 100% reliable, I've found. Grrr! (I know I can drag-and-drop, but I like to keep my current book on my phone, too, in case of unexpected reading opportunities etc.)
I have had my Paperwhite 1 since June 2013 with a padded leatherlike fabric cover, very protective, the Kindle is fully enclosed, The cover is about worn out now but the Kindle itself is still like new and just as good . I have never had any problems apart from a rare 'freeze', If you have any problems just hold the power button in for about 25 seconfs and then restart.The case for the new PW5 isn't padded but works very well . I got it grom an Asian supplier, Amazon had none available, it cost me about $7, I bought the Kindle from a local shop, cost about $260
I am in New Zealand so you will have to convert NZ dollars to your currency (right now it is around 54 British pence if that is any help)
I have the Kindle app on my phone and synced with the Kindle so I always have something to read wherever,
it's very good info, thank you, Keith. Mine is a Kindle Fire I registered in 2013.I never buy books for it, only download library books. It works fine but it's hard to read outdoors.
Reading the Detectives
Books mentioned in this topic
The Complete, Annotated Whose Body? (other topics)Whose Body? (other topics)
Authors mentioned in this topic
Bill Peschel (other topics)Dorothy L. Sayers (other topics)
This takes us full circle as the first Peter Wimsey book was also the first book in our first ever challenge, quite a few years ago now!
The stark naked body was lying in the tub. Not unusual for a proper bath, but highly irregular for murder -- especially with a pair of gold pince-nez deliberately perched before the sightless eyes. What's more, the face appeared to have been shaved after death. The police assumed that the victim was a prominent financier, but Lord Peter Wimsey, who dabbled in mystery detection as a hobby, knew better. In this, his first murder case, Lord Peter untangles the ghastly mystery of the corpse in the bath.
Please feel free to post spoilers in this thread.