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Bleak House
Bleak House - Group Read 4
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Bleak House: Chapters 1 - 10
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Jenny
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Mar 12, 2022 11:32AM
I have the white and orange spine penguin edition (physical) and I've not noticed anything like what you mentioned Jean. I could not imagine getting the book and then having all those issues!
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It's been a busy week and I'm finally commenting on Chapters 9 & 10! Just a few notes - mostly about the characters and writing as opposed to the plot (as so much insightful has already been said!).Chapter 9
Poor Richard - he must find some profession. The journey to adulthood is not any easier today. Who can there be to really help him?
And hmmm... The Dedlocks are related to the Jarndyces. I wonder how.
Esther shows us how to be the 3rd wheel graciously! As someone said, she is not at all upset at being the odd one out. And I think she's being genuine with us.
Mr. Boythorne presents us with a picture of Sir Dedlock from a different angle. I wonder what Mr. Boythorne would think of Mrs. Rouncewell (I'm not going for romantic, just as a character). Would he think of her differently if he didn't know she was part of the Chesny Wold estate? Mr. Boythorne seems to not realize how many perspectives there can be on a topic or person. But he is a fantastic character!
Mr. Guppy proposing to Esther - that was unexpected! And I definitely thought of the Mr. Collins scene from Pride and Prejudice as well :) I think Esther knew she needed to be forceful to make him understand that she was not interested. If she was gentle about it, he would not have gotten the message! Her realizing how flustered yet not she was was so realistic! Whether she liked him or not, the realization that if she'd said a few different words minutes ago, her life would be completely different is enough to fluster anyone!
Chapter 10
What a sentence - all the tools of the trade of law-stationer-ing. Only Dickens :)
After the description of Mr. and Mrs. Snagsby, I realized that in the last several pages, we have Ada and Richard falling in love, Mr. Boythorn having loved and lost, Mr. Guppy being rejected, and now the Snagsby couple! Only Dickens would think to compare the end of a lady's nose to a frosty evening - but it works so well!
In the description of Mr. Tulkinghorn's house, the sentence describing the chairs stood out to me. "Heavy, broad-backed, old-fashioned, mahogany-and-horsehair chairs, not easily lifted" - Dickens does use "heavy", but also tacks on "not easily lifted". By doing that, he does several things - first we can immediately picture them; second we know the chairs are not moved often or at all. And the latter is a reflection of the character of the house and the man who lives there. All by describing the chairs! Word choice is so powerful!
Dickens is so good at putting a bunch of characters together in a room and seeing what happens - letting their character be shown to us by their interactions with others.
All for now - on to Chapter 11!
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Euphrasie, yes! Dickens is so often in the details of these descriptions. The way he initially introduces his people to us so often indicates much about their future.
Jean - I really appreciate all your inputs, they are wonderful. It would be an understatement to call them help. :) Regarding my edition, I'm not quite getting used to it, there are a lot of errors.
I will download the Gutenberg edition and continue reading from it. Sorry to drag this topic again but I couldn't read from the previous one, sorry.
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Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"
(last edited Mar 15, 2022 01:09PM)
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Thank you very much Ananya! I was so pleased you could "join in" with our earlier group read, even though it was so much later. So I'm delighted you can actually read along with us this time :)
Regarding that particular ebook edition, "there are a lot of errors" :( Not to worry about raising this again - I'm just so relieved that you have sorted it out! Really, there is no excuse for producing a bad version of works by Charles Dickens nowadays.
I hope you have the Gutenberg one, or another better one now, Ananya, and I am looking forward to your comments :)
I've started late and am up to Chapter 6, and just catching up on comments! Very interesting to learn about Caroline Chisholm, and to see the Australian bank note Janelle posted. It's slightly surprising that Dickens actually used the name Caroline for Mrs Jellyby's daughter, Caddy - quite a pointer to his inspiration for the character.
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I'm so glad you're with us now :)
Bionic Jean wrote: "Shirley -and those who are interested in how Charles Dickens portrayed Leigh Hunt, there is a short book from 1930 which looks at it: [book:Leigh Hunt And Charles Di..."Ooh, thank you for this, Jean - I will be very interested to look, as spoilers are not an issue for me since I've read Bleak House several times.
Sorry, I've just edited this comment as I mentioned some letters I remembered from reading Dickens's letters years ago, but looks as if I may have got mixed up. I see from looking at the part of this book I could see on Google Books that I was probably remembering an article Dickens wrote claiming only the attractive elements of Skimpole were based on Leigh Hunt, rather than actual letters to Hunt.
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Bionic Jean wrote: "Yes nice observation Judy. And perhaps it makes up a little for the awful mother!I'm so glad you're with us now :)"
Thank you Jean, kind of you to say so. And yes indeed, I'm sure Dickens did quite a bit of dissembling about the sources for his characters!
It took my being on vacation, but I've finally read through this thread. Good efforts from everyone at trying to solve the mysteries less than 1/4 of the way in! :) The below are all responses to posts on this page (17).Angela wrote: "Jean I agree about the proposal coming out of left field! I really enjoyed it though. Why was Esther so indignant, do you suppose? I thought she would be gracious even if not encouraging."
My take on this is similar to my interpretation of (minor spoilers for Pride and Prejudice) (view spoiler) - without a definitive "no," Esther's response could be interpreted as her being shy or coquettish. (edit to add: and now that I'm on p. 18 I see that Euphrasie [et al.?] made a very similar observation.)
in response to Paul's thinking that this wouldn't be a good first Dickens, well (nervous pause) this is my first Dickens, and it's going just fine. The discussion here has certainly helped, but I also have some (not a lot) experience with reading other books from the 19th century. What causes the most difficulty for me are the super long sentences where the subject and predicate are quite a ways away from each other. I love those, but sometimes I have to read them through a couple times before I can get a good handle on what they're trying to say.
In response to Piyangie and some others who don't trust Tulkinghorn: as a fellow oyster who is objectively good at keeping secrets, I absolutely feel he could be trusted with a secret. As to his intentions, well, we'll see. That isn't quite as clear.
Attitude toward the poor: the idea of help also coming with a side helping of religious instruction or conversion is troubling. Especially when the religion comes without the assistance....
Ananya wrote: "I’m sorry I couldn’t find my edition in the “add book” section, but my cover is rather gloomy, a troubled man and a woman holding a baby."
Something that may be helpful in this situation, is doing a search on the book in Goodreads using the ISBN. Of course, depending on the age of the book, a ISBN may not be available. I've never tried it but it should work with the ASIN for an ebook as well.
Just one more addendum to this very long post before I move on to the Ch. 11-20 thread: I like this group's ethos of trying to put myself into the mindset of the age or the author and leave my 21st-century skepticism or cynicism behind. Where that's been difficult for me is in some of the "emblematic" names or objects, such as Dedlock or birds. I'll stick to the things I enjoy more. I love the descriptions, how absorbing every setting is, whether dreary or sunny.
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Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"
(last edited Mar 19, 2022 01:01PM)
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And the aside ... yes Goodreads accepts both ISBNs and ASINs. When you add a book to the database it asks you for it, and a kindle would be an ASIN, not an ISBN. Some earlier books from around 1960 have an SBN, so you just stick a 1 or a 0 in the front and it usually works.
But since Ananya had identified her book very well without, it seemed unnecessary. Usually I agree it is the best way. Anyone wanting the version I recommend on the shelves will find the ASIN (in this case) by far the easiest way to locate it.
I am so pleased you're enjoying Bleak House Beth, as frankly I don't recommend this as a first read either. But as you point out, you are familiar with Victorian literature (and hopefully our group helps) so it's all good :)
I've now read through to the end of the third section (Chapter 10). Chapter 8 'Covering a multitude of sins', with the ghastly Mrs Pardiggle, is a memorable chapter. I enjoyed the black comedy with the angry children cheated out of their pocket money. On top of the other meanings of the chapter title which Jean discussed, I don't think it has been mentioned so far (apologies if I'm wrong though!) that this is a quotation from the Bible (mentioned in a note to the Wordsworth edition I'm reading),
The quote is from 1 Peter 4:8 - in the King James version it reads "And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins."
I think Dickens is quoting this sarcastically - Mrs Pardiggle's type of charity is clearly the opposite to the type intended in this quote. Her charity is not atoning for sins in the past, but covering sins she is committing now, as she bosses people about and forces her way into their homes!
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Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"
(last edited Mar 19, 2022 01:50PM)
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And of course you are spot on about the sarcasm.
Hi! I'm reading 'Bleak House' now, and reading your comments along the way. If I understood correctly, one might always add to the thread for the benefit of future generations :), so...Thank you to everybody, especially to Jean!
Jean, have you published anything on Charles Dickens, I wonder?
My edition is a volume of a second-hand Hazell, Watson & Viney set; I can't find the date of publication in the book itself, but the Internet says, 1930s. No notes here, artwork by Phiz, but somehow there are only a few illustrations, not all the art that Phiz drew for this novel.
I had read the book when I was a child, but I remember practically nothing of it, although some things do return to me as I'm reading. I remember I felt that the (possibly) mad old lady (nameless for now) was scary; I do not find her that now.
Also, I remembered the lawyer who loved the sound of his voice! I actually think that my own lawyer loves the sound of his voice, too :)
'The vases on the stone terrace in the foreground catch the rain all day; and the heavy drops fall, drip, drip, drip, upon the broad flagged pavement, called, from old time, the Ghost's Walk, all night.'
I am totally transported by descriptions like this. The book is wonderfully atmospheric!
I love ghost stories and I really like how Dickens uses embedded narrative (I'm thinking of The Pickwick Papers, too). So of course I loved 'The Ghost's Walk' chapter. I did not enjoy the vague hunting reference in the beginning of it, but I did enjoy everything else here.
I was impressed by how Esther did not hesitate to refuse Mr. Guppy's proposal. This is a sign of inner strength, which one wouldn't necessarily expect from somebody of her background.
A lot of mysteries here; I have my guesses, too, but I'm sure there will be enough unexpected plot twists, so I'm not paying too much attention to my guesses, so to speak.
I can see we're dealing with the theme of motherhood here, we've seen a lot of different mothers already, and a lot of orphans. As always, Dickens sympathizes with the children. Still, Mrs. Pardiggle's sons are rather nasty, aren't they - and that's probably a graver 'sin' of hers than many others.
As it usually is with Dickens, we see a lot of very different, often quirky characters from various walks of life; I understand here there will be even more characters.
Nice cliff-hanger ending to the installment :) Off to the next chapter, then...
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Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"
(last edited Aug 29, 2022 09:31AM)
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Hi Plateresca - oh yes please do! I'm delighted you are reading along, and adding your thoughts. I hoped this would be a permanent resource, and that others will join in as they like, within the context of these chapters :)
That's a nice older edition - darkish blue I think with cloth covers and gold tooling - with an emblem on the title page: the head of Charles Dickens surrounded by a wreath? There's one from 1933 and a later one in brown - the complete works in uniform volumes. But as you say they only included a few of the illustrations by Phiz.
No I haven't published anything on Charles Dickens, but it is nice of you to say so :) To be honest I don't have time, because of all my GR commitments, and there is such a wealth of excellent and often scholarly material on him already, that I think I can be more useful here :)
Yes, aren't the descriptions at the beginning wonderful? You're making me want to pick it up again! And you're right, so many "very different, often quirky characters". It's pure Charles Dickens, and we see him here at his very best :) I think you will love it, and l look forward to your further thoughts. You've picked up on a lot of the themes already!
You've described my edition in perfect detail! Mine is the blue one. The text spacing is a bit too tight for my liking, but on the other hand, the overall size of the book is very convenient. That said, of course, the Kindle edition is the most convenient thing, because you can search the text - useful if one tends to forget who's who - and I might eventually buy a Kindle edition just for this function. But I like to read physical books. I like it that the pages are yellowish, too :)The amount of time and effort you dedicate to explaining and thus promoting books is heroic. Thank you for this. I'm sure this is a worthy contribution.
I am reading on, so we'll soon meet in the following thread :)
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Bionic Jean wrote: "Plateresca wrote: "Hi! I'm reading 'Bleak House' now, and reading your comments along the way. If I understood correctly, one might always add to the thread for the benefit of future generations :)..."Indeed, yes, Plateresca. I sit in my chair in Texas re-reading these notes and discussion 8 months later of Bleak House !
Then you're in for many hours of interesting reading (I mean both the book and the comments) :)
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Bionic Jean wrote: "What an opening! The one word sentence: “London”, brought me up sharp, as if this was going to be the heading of a factual piece. We then move through an amazingly atmospheric description of the fo..."I am presently trying to climb up the enormous hill called Bleak House - perhaps because it used to be taught in the sixth form - or is it still?.
I appreciate your excellent introduction and comments to Chapter One, Jean. The all-invading fog sounded Kafkaian to me even if Kafka came later. Fog is indeed a metaphoric device that conceals everything, even lights are blurred. It is hiding reality and truth. I noticed that the Jarndyce name sounds like jaundice. An endless, unsolved case like this sounds also Kafkaian because of the many people involved, those supposed to be working at it, like a gigantic and labyrinthic machinery that crushes humanity (the little old lady).
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I agree, fog is an excellent device, - I'm surprised it's not used more often. I think John Mullan said that Dickens described it much more often than his contemporaries.
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You find them in the Sherlock Holmes stories too.
Fog is very important at one point in The Odd Women by George Gissing too! (also set in London)
Bionic Jean wrote: "Already we have lots of mysteries … Who are Esther’s parents? What is the shameful secret and why does her godmother say what she does about Esther’s birth? Why didn’t her aunt accept Mr. Kenge’s o..."Yes, lots of mysteries. This chapter is both refreshing after the preceding fog and dampness episodes and quite mysterious - you have said it Jean and all of you.
It first sound like a fairy tale, we expect Esther beginning with once upon a time. It sounds like a fairy tale again years later when Esther is with Ada and Richard "like the children in the wood", meeting the "curious little woman". Even the man (both funny and benevolent but still strange) in the carriage wrapped in several blankets looks like someone out of a fairy tale. London wrapped in fog looks eerie like a thick black wood in fairy tales.
At the same time it begins like a Bildungsroman as you said, with epochs in Esther's life: she has to leave her childhood behind (and bury the doll), then she is leaving Greenleaf for London. If I understood right, she is now 20 years old. She is immediately enthusiastic about Ada - blond, blue eyes - does she remind Esther of her doll who was her confident in her lonely childhood?
I was reminded ot Jane Eyre's stages in her life - times when she had to leave a place to go for something hopefully better. But a huge difference between Jane and Esther is a matter of identity. Esther has a name, but she does not know anything about herself. She is living in present tense and cannot get any information from her godmother (who reminded me of Arthur's mother in Little Dorrit indeed)
Esther - I was told that this is an old Persian name, and that the Hebrew name is Hadasah which means "star". I concentrated more on the Book of Esther, the only book in the Bible where the word "God" does not appear. Esther is a Jewish orphan during the Exile in Persia and is chosen by King Xerxes because of her beauty and intelligence. Reared by her uncle Mordechai, she is informed by him that wicked Haman is planning the extinction of all the Jews of the Kingdom. She helps this not to happen and saves her people. This event is (noisily) celebrated in Purim. Esther 14:4 is according to many exegets a pivotal verse "Who knows but that you have come to your royal position for such a time as this?"
Esther seems to be a popular name in Victorian literature: in Mary Barton, for instance (a "fallen" woman). But there are Hesters too: in The Scarlet Letter (Hester Prynne, considered a fallen woman) (not Victorian!), in Sylvia's Lovers (Hester, a shy and industrious Quakeress).
Plotting Women: Gender and Narration in the Eighteenth- and Nineteenth-Century British Novel - I understand this book might not be readily available in every library, but, Claudia, since you mention Jane Eyre, I think it might interest you, if you haven't read it already. The author posits that female narrators (in the literature of the period in the title, although I learnt about this book from reading the same author's essay on Bridget Jones, and it seems the same conventions apply to this significantly later novel) have a different amount of control over the stories they are telling as compared to male narrators, and asks interesting questions about both Esther's and Jane's narrative.'Felix Holt, the Radical' has an Esther...
Thanks Plateresca! Yes, of course the second similarity between both narratives is the first person!
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Names are always significant, as you'll know.
Bleak House is only partly first person narration, and you will remember how it is proportioned as you read through. But critics still argue as to how reliable Esther is. For me, I just take account of the fact that Charles Dickens never attempted a female narrator again!
Well, I seemed to have missed the announcement of Bleak House being the next group read. Where can I find the schedule? peace, janz
Peacejanz wrote: "Well, I seemed to have missed the announcement of Bleak House being the next group read. Where can I find the schedule? peace, janz"Hello Peacejanz, no you have not missed anything! It was just me stirring the pot as I have just begun reading Bleak House and have looked up this group reading of 2022 - then I was not aware that such groups as this exist on GR
Bionic Jean wrote: "This has been such a long and eventful chapter! And the mood has changed a lot. Right from the start we are told “The day had brightened very much, and still brightened as we went westward”. Instea..."Very interesting comments Jean! I now understand why there is a weathercock on the Wordsworth Classics edition. Great explanations about East Wind, Sponge Houses and Housekeepers. South wind is feared in the Southern part of France and also in Southern Germany. It may increase nervosity and anxiousness or even trigger crisis in already fragile persons.
Housekeepers are sometimes pivotal in Victorian novels. They are holders of keys but also of family history and secrets, are high in hierarchy above other servants - you see this vividly featured in TV series like Downtown Abbey (presently shown on a French TV channel), not quite Victorian however, or La Cocinera de Castamar, a Spanish TV series about a Spanish Downtown Abbey in the 17th century, also shown on the same TV channel earlier in 2023.
Yes Bleak House belies its name in this chapter, it is a funnily strange house. My general impression: Esther seems to be a positive person and sees the best in everyone. She appeared like a Mary Poppins at Jellyby's. Were she able to stay longer, she would have perhaps succeeded in cleaning and tidying the house, calmed down the children and perhaps even sorting things out and established Mrs Jellyby's priorities. Still she is - in my opinion - in search of her true identity.
Would I be able to give all the money I have saved over years all of a sudden to someone I did not know a few hours before, to prevent his going to jail? This is quite puzzling.
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Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"
(last edited Dec 03, 2023 07:39AM)
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I love the comparison with Mary Poppins! I imagine the Australian author P.L. Travers really had an archetypal British nanny in mind, but something about that character suits her. Esther always pleads her insignificance, though of course (and some feel this happens rather too often to be sincere).
"she is - in my opinion - in search of her true identity." Yes! Well observed, and this goes some way to explaining your final concern. She has no social mores to know what is right, no experience except in a very narrow sphere, and so has no knowledge of confidence tricksters. Mr. Jarndyce has behaved magnificently to her, so she feel she should do the same.
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Bionic Jean wrote: "Chapter 7: The Ghost’s Walk We know from the title that we will be back in Lincolnshire, at Chesney Wold. The narrator tells us:
“The rain is ever falling—drip, drip, drip—by day and night upon ..."
Skilful transition from Esther's narrative to third person narrative. Beautiful illustrations here for a short, but rich chapter (true description of the behaviour of the animals, historical background, family history, Ghostwalk). I liked Sir Morbury Dedlock's name (mort (death, dead), bury, deadlock). Of course Mr Guppy's obsessive reaction to Lady Dedlocks's picture - a unique piece, never engraved - is interesting both for Mr Guppy and for us!
We seem to have two different plot lines (Dedlock's and Esther's) with the everlasting Jarndyce and Jarndyce case looming above both in a way we still don't quite know, and two microclimates : apparently idyllic weather with changing winds over Bleak House and damp stagnant weather in Lincolnshire.
Bionic Jean wrote: "What a chapter of contrasts! I read Mr. Skimpole’s self-indulgent performance with wry amusement, and laughed out loud at the squirming awfulness of Mrs. Pardiggle and her little Pardiggleses. She ..."Well said Jean. I was reminded of something precise in Mary Barton (but I don't want to spoil for the future) and thought that when people like the brickmakers are caught up in such a terrible situation, the last thing they want is a lecture (the portrait of Mrs Partridge and her sons was both funny but accurately terrible). They need to feel compassion - even if it is sometimes hard to feel it too in such dire circumstances because positive feelings are almost annihilated by starvation and alcohol. Anger and rage and utter sadness are not. Yet there is a glimpse of light in that bleak scene.
Their cottage seems to be the real bleak house in those surroundings.
Thank you for mentioning the handkerchief and the title. Covering the baby with the handkerchief reminded me of "Cover Her Face" by PD James, the first Dalgliesh mystery. But this associated with the title may first of all hint at something we don't know yet but are asking ourselves. The recurring mention of Esther keeping all the keys of every door and cupboard in the house and the notion of guardian (Jarndyce-Janitor? keeping all the secrets and keys to mysteries?) Is Esther a hidden Jarndyce?
Strangely enough, Esther did not ask *our* questions to Mr Jarndyce...
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Bionic Jean, "Dickens Duchess"
(last edited Dec 07, 2023 12:27PM)
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Yes, at this point Esther either does not give much away, or is genuinely innocent and gauche, especially around Mr. Jarndyce.
I think P.D. James did read Charles Dickens, although I've always thought that title referred to The Duchess of Malfi by John Webster: "Cover her face; mine eyes dazzle. She died young."
She may have had both in mind, of course ...
Nice interpretation of Sir Morbury Dedlock's name 😊 We looked at Sir Leicester's surname only, not thinking of his ancestors at that point.
Dickensians!
Books mentioned in this topic
The Duchess of Malfi (other topics)Bleak House (other topics)
Plotting Women: Gender and Narration in the Eighteenth- and Nineteenth-Century British Novel (other topics)
Bleak House (other topics)
The Pickwick Papers (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
P.D. James (other topics)Charles Dickens (other topics)
John Webster (other topics)
P.L. Travers (other topics)
Charles Dickens (other topics)
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