Dickensians! discussion
This topic is about
Bleak House
Bleak House - Group Read 4
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Bleak House: Chapters 1 - 10
Bionic Jean wrote: "Diane wrote: "Writing as he did, in installments, did he map out the entire book beforehand, or was he just winging it as he went along? ..."I talked a bit about his mems in the introductory post..."
Thank you Jean for including this information about the "mems". This is yet another stunning indication of Dickens' genius. Given the complex nature of this novel and the innumerable characters (each with very specific descriptions and characterizations) the mental acuity required not only to create but to remember his creations is astounding.
Dickens is always referring to stacks and piles of papers. I speculate that he himself generated many more notes and revisions that we will ever know.
Petra wrote: "I found the scene at the Bricklayer's to be very emotional and touching, in many ways. These people are so destitute that they can't make any moves, have any dreams or thoughts.....they can only ex..."Petra, me too! I was remarking to myself how unusual I find it that no one is abusing the main characters so far. Hmmmm.
John wrote: "I'm chiming in to ask why Mrs Pardiggle was allowed to visit at all against the wishes of the household? Was there truly some idea that one couldn't commit trespassing among the poor? I feel sorry ..."I would suspect that the poor were expected to defer to their 'betters".
Bionic Jean wrote: "Well, we saw the romance blossoming between the two wards of Jarndyce, but I have to admit that the marriage proposal to Esther came as a surprise! I do love Mr. Guppy! He has only seen her three t..."Jean I agree about the proposal coming out of left field! I really enjoyed it though. Why was Esther so indignant, do you suppose? I thought she would be gracious even if not encouraging.
Why is Mr. Tulkinghorn taking such interest in finding this law writer? Does he suspect Lady Deadlock of any association with this unknown man? I'm not sure if I like Tukinghorn. Looks to me a kind of a dangerous man.
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Feel free to speculate, and discuss the writing and any of the information posts so far here today! Tomorrow we begin a new thread :)
So, I have two theories about Nemo, Lady Dedlock and the writing- 1) Nemo is George Rouncewell. I assume Lady Dedlock would have seen his writing before.2) Nemo is so lost in opium that he has the mad old lady do his copy work. In this case, she is Lady Dedlocks sister.
I also wonder if the mad lady is Boythorn's lost love? The fact that they both have birds brought this to mind, and then if she is Lady Dedlocks sister, he would not want to speak ill of his possible sister in law. I'm having such fun finding this connections and trying to tease them out!
Jenny wrote: "So, I have two theories about Nemo, Lady Dedlock and the writing- 1) Nemo is George Rouncewell. I assume Lady Dedlock would have seen his writing before.2) Nemo is so lost in opium that he has the..."
Wow! Brilliant ideas. I thought of the first possibility but I never came close to the second and third. Now I can't wait to get on with the story!
Me either Paul:) Glad you liked my theories
Hi everyone! I'm late to the party but happy to be here. I read Bleak House last week, then started it over again and am caught up with the group now. I've very much enjoyed reading the comments and background information. Jean - I always love anything you post related to the novel, including illustrations.
I'm cautious of posting because I don't want to accidentally give out a spoiler. But for chapter 10, I love the atmosphere and the feeling of Dickens leading the reader further into this massive story. I imagine it like a huge house with many, many closed rooms. With each chapter Dickens opens a door and let's us see inside. Some questions are answered, more arise.
I adore the characterizations of Mr and Mrs Snagsby - pure Dickensian gold.
I'm cautious of posting because I don't want to accidentally give out a spoiler. But for chapter 10, I love the atmosphere and the feeling of Dickens leading the reader further into this massive story. I imagine it like a huge house with many, many closed rooms. With each chapter Dickens opens a door and let's us see inside. Some questions are answered, more arise.
I adore the characterizations of Mr and Mrs Snagsby - pure Dickensian gold.
Hi Cozy Pug. So nice to see you here!
Newly joined here. I saw a few BH posts from Jean and maybe one or two others come through my feed, and since I'm currently a ways into the book, decided to join the group.Since I'm about ten days/chapters ahead of you all, I'll put my current audiobook read (Naxos, Sean Barrett & Teresa Gallagher, for the record) on hold until the group catches up. In the meantime I have "a few" posts (over 800!!) to catch up on.
What a great chapter for the introduction and/or development of each character! I love both the Snagsbys, though their temperaments are so different. Jean, thank you for letting us know that Augusta ("Guster") probably suffered from epilepsy. That did not even occur to me. I'm guessing epilepsy had not yet been diagnosed during the time Dickens was writing this novel?I was astonished that Mr. Tulkinghorn lived with fellow "maggots in a nut" (I will not soon forget that term!) in rented quarters? As a successful Jarndyce and Jarndyce attorney, I pictured him living in one of those beautiful Hyde Park kind of homes. Or did attorneys in Victorian times not make the money our current attorneys in the US make?
I was not at all surprised that Mr. Tulkinghorn at once pounced on the unusual behavior of Lady Dedlock when she saw the copy-writer's handwriting. And being the "Oyster of the old school, whom nobody can open", there is no doubt Tulkinghorn wants to know who the copy-writer is so he can bury this knowledge with all of his other knowledge about people. To me, he seems like the kind of person who always wants to have the advantage over others. I just don't trust him... the way he pretended to Mr. Snagsby of not being able to find the affidavit in his pocket, the way he found Nemo's name on the list before Mr. Snagsby did, the way he pretended to go home until Mr. Snagsby had left and then turned back around to go to the Rag and Bottle shop. Everything about this visit was so underhanded. I can't wait to see how Dickens develops his character.
As to the copy-writer himself, I couldn't help but feel sorry for him. He's obviously an educated man, but his addiction has almost completely destroyed him. I'm so glad we don't have to wait a month, like Dickens' first audience did, to find out more about Nemo and his possible relationship to Lady Dedlock. The plot thickens!
Welcome to the group, Beth. So glad you are here. And it's good to see your name again Cozy Pug :-)Jenny, I liked your speculations and like Paul, I hadn't thought of them either.
If it's okay, I'll share a couple of my own.
I do think Lady Dedlock is Esther's mother, even though Mr. Boythorn didn't comment on the similarity. That may sound silly since Boythorn was my own observation, but I like what Sue said (many posts ago) that he might have been distracted (or something like that, I apologize, Sue, if I've misrepresented what you wrote.)
I also can't stop comparing Tom Jarndyce and John Jarndyce. Why do they have such different reactions to being trapped by the Jarndyce and Jarndyce cause? One man commits suicide, and the other is so cheerful and almost nonplussed by it all.
Oh, Jean... and my vote is for you to post any and all illustrations you think appropriate to Bleak House. I love every one of them, even though some illustrators may veer off a little from Dickens' descriptions. It's wonderful that we are so into the book that we can identify when this occurs. Yeah! A win-win. Thank you!
Thanks, Bridget. :)As a minor addendum I did get spoiled on the Big Event alluded to in Jean's posts, first of all by listening to Dickens' preface in this audiobook. Also years and years earlier when I was helping my mom clear out some old books. BH was among them, one of her college course books. She thought it was boring, but remembered nothing about it except [Big Event]. Thanks, Mom from 20 years ago. :D
Bionic Jean wrote: "And a little more …
About an
East Wind:
:
Traditionally an East Wind is associated with trouble. An East Wind tended to bring inclement weather and was considered to be bad for your health. Ac..."
I started reading The House of the Seven Gables by Nathaniel Hawthorne about an hour ago. In the first few pages, there's a mention of an east wind -
With a brief sketch, therefore, of the circumstances amid which the foundation of the house was laid, and a rapid glimpse at its quaint exterior, as it grew black in the prevalent east wind,—
I'm only one chapter into the book, but it seems ominous based on circumstances described by Hawthorne. I never considered any significance to an east wind before Bleak House and Jean's post, then I encounter it in the very next book I read!
About an
East Wind:
:
Traditionally an East Wind is associated with trouble. An East Wind tended to bring inclement weather and was considered to be bad for your health. Ac..."
I started reading The House of the Seven Gables by Nathaniel Hawthorne about an hour ago. In the first few pages, there's a mention of an east wind -
With a brief sketch, therefore, of the circumstances amid which the foundation of the house was laid, and a rapid glimpse at its quaint exterior, as it grew black in the prevalent east wind,—
I'm only one chapter into the book, but it seems ominous based on circumstances described by Hawthorne. I never considered any significance to an east wind before Bleak House and Jean's post, then I encounter it in the very next book I read!
Hi Anne and Bridget! It's nice to be reading Dickens with you again :)
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I honestly do think we have far better discussions, taking it a chapter at a time.
As I mentioned at the beginning, everyone, "The Dickens Project" in Santa Cruz is reading this over pretty much the same time period. It's reputed to be good, but at one hour a month spent on discussion, and just 3 overall, I think it's a very different approach. Courses too tend to assume you've read the book first, and do not have all the lively minds sparking possibilities that we do :) (But l'm probably biased!)
As Beth says, we have over 800 comments on the first 10 chapters alone! And all on topic ... So I'm delighted to see you joining in.
At the end, we can look at some of the scholarly texts and articles if there's interest, and then discuss retrospectively :)
Oh, I love your extra reference to the East Wind - thank you!
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Aw - sorry you had a spoiler - but you can console yourself that there are lots of mysteries in this book!
I Iove that we are still getting new people joining in, and do hope you enjoy it!
Bridget wrote: "I do think Lady Dedlock is Esther's mother, even though Mr. Boythorn didn't comment on the similarity. That may sound silly since Boythorn was my own observation, but I like what Sue said (many posts ago) that he might have been distracted (or something like that, I apologize, Sue, if I've misrepresented what you wrote.), ..."Was it not mentioned, when we met Lady Dedlock, that she had no children? Perhaps, though, this was meant as "she had no children that Lord Dedlock was aware of".
I am more in the mind that Lady Dedlock had a brother, who had a child out of wedlock. (or a nephew or other male relative)
Could Nemo be Lady Dedlock's brother (or nephew or other male relative)? His handwriting would have been known to her.
Paul did make the very good observation, though, that Nemo may not have been able to write as reliably as "The Writer" did because of his addiction. That would rule Nemo out as Lady Dedlock's male relative.
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Yes, Mrs. Rouncewell said so, to her grandson.
Jean - That's so fascinating that Dickens used crows so many times. I'm a Dickens newbie, so now I'm going to watch for them in his novels. (Of course, after this experience, I don't know that I want to read any of his novels without the group! :)Lorena - That's funny that you brought up Mr. Tulkinghorn and the crows, I actually thought one of those sentences with a crow was about Mr. Tulkinghorn until I read it again and saw he meant a literal crow.
Piyangie - Agree with you about Mr. Tulkinghorn. I don't trust him!
Jenny - I have been speculating along the lines of Nemo being George Rouncewell, but hadn't thought at all about your second theory! I love that idea!
Cozy Pug - Yay! I'm glad you popped in! :D It's always a pleasure.
Petra wrote: "Bridget wrote: "I do think Lady Dedlock is Esther's mother, even though Mr. Boythorn didn't comment on the similarity. That may sound silly since Boythorn was my own observation, but I like what Su..."Lady Dedlock's brother is a great speculation, Petra. All the speculations today are great. Part of the fun of reading Dickens is trying to solve his mysteries. It's so fun to share these guesses with a group!
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Yay, that's lovely to hear! He actually had several pet crows ... but we can (and have) talked about that elsewhere. And thanks for Bridget's "It's so fun to share these guesses with a group!" too.
The next thread is up now, with lots of new information :)
Yesterday, I updated my progress on BLEAK HOUSE and had the following conversation with a GR friend:https://www.goodreads.com/user_status...
My inclination is to respond to her that reading and enjoying Charles Dickens is a learned skill and an acquired taste and to suggest that BLEAK HOUSE is definitely NOT a good starting point.
IMO, good starting points would be one of OLIVER TWIST, A TALE OF TWO CITIES, or NICHOLAS NICKLEBY. Perhaps one of the lighter comedic novels such as PICKWICK PAPERS or MARTIN CHUZZLEWIT would be a little easier to handle for the first attempt.
Suggestions and comments from people who need no convincing about Charles Dickens? Thanks.
Bionic Jean wrote: "The next thread is up now, with lots of new information"
Not seeing anything???
Personally, I think The Pickwick Papers or Martin Chuzzlewit would be the wrong place to start with Dickens. PP is not a typical novel and I would want someone to begin with a Dickens that has a strong plot and characters. I generally tell people to begin with David Copperfield if they have never read Dickens before.
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LINK HERE
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I agree, it's not the ideal first Charles Dickens novel to read, and sometimes we discuss - in other threads - which would be. However, the way we do it, I think she would get a lot out of Bleak House, and hopefully would find it enjoyable.
Why don't you invite Karina to this group? Or put a link on your status if you like? Then she can choose this book, or another one we have read, with full knowledge.
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As we did here ... I think we cross-posted Sara!
Bionic Jean wrote: "Petra wrote: "Was it not mentioned, when we met Lady Dedlock, that she had no children?..."Yes, Mrs. Rouncewell said so, to her grandson."
Ahh, then it might not be entirely reliable. Mrs. Rouncewell knows everything that happens in Chesney Wold but not outside of it. She may not be aware of Lady Dedlock's history before coming to the house.
Bridget wrote: "Part of the fun of reading Dickens is trying to solve his mysteries. It's so fun to share these guesses with a group! ..."Bridget, I so agree. We're like a group of detectives trying to solve a mystery.
With so much insight and observances, the mystery is thickening. It's wonderful to be able to speculate as we do here.
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Everyone is so intuitive and focussed, and quick to pick up nuances :)
Cozy_Pug, living in the same area that Hawthorne wrote in, I know that physically an east wind brings ill tidings, bad tides, bad weather and arthritic pain!
Sue wrote: "Cozy_Pug, living in the same area that Hawthorne wrote in, I know that physically an east wind brings ill tidings, bad tides, bad weather and arthritic pain!"
Thanks for this info, Sue! The town in the book is a coastal town, so I thought physical ailments would be an effect of the east wind for sure.
Thanks for this info, Sue! The town in the book is a coastal town, so I thought physical ailments would be an effect of the east wind for sure.
Yes, Salem is right on the Atlantic Ocean and where I live is about 5 miles from the ocean. Our weather is so affected by our location here in the Northeast where wind off the ocean is unkind for most of the year. It’s only appreciated during hot weather in the summer when we need a break.
A couple of general impressions for now, until the Ch. 11-20 discussions begin.- I don't think that the "mad old woman" (I don't know if she's been named as of this point in the book) is mad. Elderly women don't get a lot of respect today much less 150+ years ago, and calling her mad would be a convenient way for society to dismiss her, or anything she has to say. I have to admire her doggedness.
- I have a hard time with Esther as a character. She's trying hard to make us believe she's a self-effacing, unintelligent, invisible person, but seems to have a fair amount of charisma, and her narrative has a good number of sardonic, albeit gently expressed, asides about the people and situations around her. She can certainly keep her thoughts to herself, unlike Caddy. (Don't mistake me, I have a lot of sympathy for Caddy.) Jingling the housekeeper's keys comes across as a reminder to others who's in charge of the household, as much as it does her being thrilled to be of use to it. She does seem genuinely attentive and kind to others and I can completely understand why little Peepy et al. are drawn to her.
Sue wrote: "Yes, Salem is right on the Atlantic Ocean and where I live is about 5 miles from the ocean. Our weather is so affected by our location here in the Northeast where wind off the ocean is unkind for m..."Sue, Salem is such a charming town! I went there a few years ago for a wedding and ended up spending my free time browsing the bookstores and walking around what I think was the house on which Hawthorne based his book. I haven't read it yet, so I didn't tour it.
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Here's the link again Beth:
LINK HERE
It's been open about 12 hours, and has 81 comments so far (eek!) but several are finding it hard to locate. It's the next thread down.
And I like your observations very much :)
Hello all! I hope I’m not too late to join!I read the first 3 chapters and found them confusing. First of all, thank you for the summary and all the comments, that helped a lot.
Bleak house might be one of the most onerous novels I have come across, but I love challenges and I’m up for it.
I am reading the Penguins classics ebook version. I thought there were some typos in the writing, but now I feel they could be deliberate, or I couldn’t decipher the meaning. I would love to know if anybody is reading the same version as me.
I may be reading the same edition as you. Does your edition have footnotes with definitions and explanation of some terms? I haven’t noticed typos in mine but spelling was different in the 19th century so something may have been wrong and I ignored it. I don’t know if there has been more than one edition of this Penguin Classics edition of Bleak House.
Sue wrote: "I may be reading the same edition as you. Does your edition have footnotes with definitions and explanation of some terms? I haven’t noticed typos in mine but spelling was different in the 19th cen..."Yes, there are footnotes at the end. It could have been different spelling which I’m not used to, so thank you for clarifying!
I’m sorry I couldn’t find my edition in the “add book” section, but my cover is rather gloomy, a troubled man and a woman holding a baby.
My copy has active footnotes in the text. On my kindle, the cover looks something like what you describe. There are so many editions available that I didn’t try to be accurate when I added it to my currently reading list so that shows a different edition, also kindle, from Penguin. I’m enjoying having the footnotes. I have come across one spoiler but it’s several chapters ahead of where you are now, in the next section, and I don’t think it will change my outlook on the book at all. Over all, the definitions have been helpful.
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"I read the first 3 chapters and found them confusing. First of all, thank you for the summary and all the comments, that helped a lot.
Bleak house might be one of the most onerous novels I have come across, but I love challenges and I’m up for it."
It's a very different novel from David Copperfield, yes, but many critics regard it as his greatest achievement. It's complex - and wonderful! Yes, I think the writing in the earlier chapters can be a challenge, but you'll soon get into it :)
There are two Penguin Classics editions. I assume this is yours:
It should be OK - those with black spines usually are. However, one member (Jenny?) found a bad spoiler in the notes, and now you say there's another minor one coming up, Sue :(
Ananya and Sue - I say this often, but I really don't see why anyone needs to read textual notes for our reads. It's not like a course, where you have to read a book fast, and prepare your conclusions. Here we read carefully, and discuss every day.
I try hard to anticipate what's needed and present it safely (e.g. each summary takes 2+ hours alone - not counting adding the illustrations - and includes quotations which are pertinent, then the research and commentary another few) and if any there are any parts which need explaining, which I have not covered in my extra posts, then please ask!
I had no idea anyone needed "pot-boy" defining, and assumed a basic knowledge of a "beadle" in my extra post about the ballad, yesterday, but we do have other English members who can help, (just as I look to Americans for help with American geography and culture) and historians too, so if I'm offline someone will probably know.
Sorry to go on about this, but members do occasionally slip into the habitual way of reading, forgetting that the "Dickensians!" way is different, and I suspect unique (at least in Goodreads). Of course there are many excellent articles and scholarly books about Bleak House, which we can all enjoy at the end if you like, along with the notes in your editions. (An article from the "New Yorker" is one members are looking forward to - although l'm not sure if there will be much new in it for us really!) Such articles and notes are mostly good, but not always reliable - a common mistake is getting the date of Michaelmas wrong, for instance. Charles Dickens is not referring to the Feast in September, but the academic term in November, as the text says.
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It may be best to check with the Gutenberg edition: https://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/...
if you suspect a misprint.
This is complete, and correct.
Here are 2 out of the first 3 reviews from Amazon about the Penguin Classics editions:
1. "A review of this particular edition, not the book in general ...
one page in and I'm baffled. Here's a direct lift from the text:
'Both the arena of favor and the Court of Chancery are things of precedent and utilization: oversleeping Rip Van Winkles who have played at unusual video games through a deal of thundery weather; napping beauties whom the knight will wake sooner or later, whilst all the stopped spits in the kitchen shall start to show prodigiously!'
Video games?? This appears to be some sort of computer-generated re-translation. Sentences are impossible to parse in places and 'five pounds' (money) is translated into '10 kilos'. Words like 'guys' and 'kids' spring up here and there.
2. Terrible and what feels like a rushed version of this book. The whole thing is filled with random words that do no appear in the original, such as video game and e book. Totally unreadable. Feels like it has been scanned into an illiterate computer and then spat out. One of the great books of literature ruined by predictive text. Avoid.
The first quotation, as I remember, is in chapter 1, so you can easily check yours. It even has American spelling, so it could be that Amazon have got it wrong, and lumped them all together :( I hope so.
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The best, most accurate one of Bleak House on kindle is the one on our shelves, and it costs pennies. The best paper one is the Norton edition Bleak House: An Authoritative and Annotated Text, Illustrations, a Note on the Text, Genesis and Composition, Backgrounds, Criticism which includes the mems - but I hesitated to recommend this generally, as I know Sue and others would have their curiosity piqued, and manage to spoil it for yourselves. It's an excellent read - for after the book!
Sorry to go on about this Sue, and I apologise if you or anyone feel I'm interfering unduly with everyone's personal choice, with such strong, unusual advice. But after the hundreds of hours I spend every time, in preparing a group read, trying to achieve my vision of enabling readers to read this authentically, as Charles Dickens's original readers did, (the only difference being our quicker pace) I find it quite dispiriting when readers talk about "shmoop", wiki, or notes. Why?
If you know the book, my request is irrelevant, but if not, please think again. Read notes or google if you like, rather than asking, but be aware that you may spoil Charles Dickens's greatest mystery for yourself, for the sake of a couple of months. All will then be revealed!
Thanks for the information, Jean. All I can think is that I must have luckily happened on a different edition than Ananya found since I didn’t have those scrambled results you showed above. I do agree that I did miss some sections in Dombey. I bought my copies of Dickens some time ago because I knew I would read the novels eventually. Maybe more recent updates have become more problematic. For future purchases, I will check with you!
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Well thank goodness for that! I know it's wonderful that we can read all these Victorian novels free nowadays, but that one beggars belief! I hope everyone who downloaded it returned it.
Penguin used to be so good, but I'm not sure about their conversions to e-books. Like you, I suspect that there may be far more mistakes. Also there are fewer human proofreaders, as it's cheaper to buy a computer program which does it (badly).
I'm looking forward to everyone watching the dramatisations of Bleak House :) But ... spoilers ;)
Dickensians!
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Natalie, no worries about saying the same thing. It's good to know that we are all more or less on the same page about what is happening and how it may be interpreted.