2-3-4 Challenge Book Discussions #2 discussion
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Jonetta
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Jan 08, 2022 10:32AM
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I wondered about this. My thought is that he is a good trainer when they are all male recruits. He knows that the goal is to find good women and his training and knowledge will help the women succeed.He reminds me of some people who attended mandatory diversity training and leave the sessions telling demeaning "dirty" jokes or making racist remarks. They just don't get how to treat people who are not like them.
I was wondering why he was on the panel as well. Wondered if they thought they would get his ‘buy in’ for a female officer on the team if he got to voice his opinion during the picking process. His character is pretty well set in your mind from this one tiny glimpse of him. It’s not flattering and it didn’t change for me as the short story went on.
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I “assumed” he’d always participated in recruit selection and no one was going to stand up and shut him out of this one.
True story. A guy I had to tolerate in executive management made an extremely disparaging remark about me in a meeting where the chairman was present. No one said anything to him in the meeting but the chairman fired him that evening. Then he beat up the other meeting attendees for allowing him to get away with that and not taking him to task in that moment. I was the lowest ranking member there, at invitation to give a presentation they were highly interested and impressed with.
Moral of the story, these guys don’t change unless they’re made to and held accountable.
You're absolutely right, Jonetta. I witnessed it in the business world also. When I was a young secretary working for 3 executives, one of them was a jerk. He was always looking down my blouse, touching me inappropriately, etc. I finally found another job and quit because I knew nothing would be done to remedy this.I agree. These guys don't change unless they are dealt with. At another job I had, the President had a meeting and said if there are any sexist/racial comments made by any of you, you will be immediately fired. I don't care how much business you bring in. It worked.
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As your experiences show (and thanks for sharing) sexism and I'm sure all sorts of discrimination was tolerated right up to recent times. And it only will take legislation and zero tolerance to remove it. So Nolasco was probably typical of some men in authority of this era. And he was the No 1 shooter on the range wasn't he so was very skilful in that particular area.
Karen and Jonetta you are lucky. In my experience, men would get a slap on the wrist or maybe a week off with pay, but rarely fired. I remember policies against dating within the organization. Most often the woman was fired not the man when the liaison was exposed. God knows the man was never the instigator, and besides the man needs the job to support his family. I'm not sure why the woman was working anyway.
I think it started to change more after 2000, but there are still "old boys" in the workplace.
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Sharon, I paid some serious dues up until this moment. It requires men to be just as vocal about sexism and harassment as women. I look back and cringe at what I had to tolerate and manage. There’s been radical change since that time but not everywhere.
I agree with you. Leadership sets the tone for an organization. Most of us paid a lot of dues. I worked at one company where the vice president would stop by my desk, put his foot up on my desk so his crotch was at my eye level, then tell me his latest dirty joke. This happened a couple times a week. He did the same thing to other women in different departments. Many of the men would laugh, but I could tell that the laugh was an uncomfortable laugh, not a good laugh.
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Boys will be boys until they are dead.
@Jonetta - your assumption that he usually always involved in the picking process is probably correct. And he was the one training them.Ladies - sad for what you've had to put up with from the 'old boys club'. Really hoping we as a group will be done with this tpe of mentality.
Most times throughout my career - I've had female bosses for which I've been fortunate. I work in the healthcare field. I've learned a lot from all of them. Recently, within the last few years, my immediate boss was male and it was like light/day. My (female) boss prior to him thought highly of me and what I brought to the company. Working with him was like having to prove my worth every day. Also, anytime there was an open position it was always filled with whatever male candidate came in regardless of whether they were qualified or not. It was horrible. You also knew they were paid higher since they were male. He ended up being let go and we now have a female again leading our building. Couldn't be happier.
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After reading the experiences you guys had, I feel lucky. I worked in a district office for the state government (civil service) for 35 years. They were very strict about sexual harassment and were quick to look into situations if anything was reported. I'm sure there were some raunchy jokes at times, but they must have been smart enough to watch out for whoever was near them. I was happy that when I got to be a supervisor, no one reported anything like that to me.As far as the question, I just wondered if they had a standing committee of the same people always selecting recruits, of it the people changed all of the time. It seemed to be all men looking at the recruits. I found that sad.
Yep - it sucked. However, in the middle of it I transitioned to a different regional job within the same company where he had no control over me. Then Covid hit - my job was 'cancelled' as corporate didn't feel they needed this regional job anymore - luckily for me the girl who took my position quit so my 'old job' was open once more for me to transition back. I'm still hoping "fingers crossed" that things go in the right direction and my regional job will open again. Granted like I said above - I really do love the current boss at my building. So I'm good. Unfortunately, I don't believe that (monetary) ship has totally sailed. I definitely believe it is going in the right direction for sure. Same with the 'ole boys club' mentality - I think it is going in the right direction but, we have a ways to go.
Sharon wrote: "Karen and Jonetta you are lucky. In my experience, men would get a slap on the wrist or maybe a week off with pay, but rarely fired. I remember policies against dating within the organization. Mo..."
My best friend (this was in the 80's) was dating a co-worker. They were both single. When management found out, they let HER go. Things were so unfair then.
I agree with you Melissa, It is going in the right direction, but men often have higher paying jobs doing the same work as women in the same position.
Sharon wrote: "I agree with you Melissa, It is going in the right direction, but men often have higher paying jobs doing the same work as women in the same position."Yep - we must keep pushing forward to make things equal for our future girls :)
Karen ♐ wrote: "Sharon wrote: "Karen and Jonetta you are lucky. In my experience, men would get a slap on the wrist or maybe a week off with pay, but rarely fired. I remember policies against dating within the o..."
Totally unfair!!
Karen ♐ wrote: "Sharon wrote: "Karen and Jonetta you are lucky. In my experience, men would get a slap on the wrist or maybe a week off with pay, but rarely fired. I remember policies against dating within the o..."
Karen, my husband and I met in 1982 at work in a bank. And guess who was transferred 3 months later. Yep, me. I was really upset at the time as I was transferred to the city which meant an extra 2 hours travelling time. But in those days if you wanted to keep your job you didn't complain. Ten years earlier than my time once you were married you weren't even allowed to keep working in the bank. Thank goodness times have moved on!!
And the gender pay divide is still an issue in Australia for those on salaries which are negotiated. In our business we work on Government set awards which is so much fairer, you get paid for the level and hours you work doesn't matter your gender.
I also remember when working in the 70's, if a woman got pregnant, she had to resign when she was 6 months along. How things have changed.
Wow, ladies...so sorry you experienced all of this discrimination. I have to say that I feel very fortunate to work for the company I'm at (a major bank). I can honestly say I've never felt disadvantaged as a woman in 35 years. But you're totally right in that the tone needs to be set at the top of the house. Our CEOs (during my time there anyway) have been very clear that bad behaviour will not be tolerated. I agree though that it's not the same everywhere...we still have a ways to go to ensure that our daughters have no barriers to what they can achieve!To the question, I just assumed that Nolasco was there as the ranking detective on the force.
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Those early bad experiences made me a better manager, however. It also gave me survival skills that became valuable so it wasn’t a total loss. And, I wasn’t miserable…just frustrated so much of the time. I also got male mentors that taught me how to relate to men in the business world.
Karen ♐ wrote: "I also remember when working in the 70's, if a woman got pregnant, she had to resign when she was 6 months along. How things have changed."Karen, My first job as an adult was with a major publisher of medical journals and books. My husband and I didn't live paycheck to paycheck, but we needed both jobs to save, vacation, etc.
When I found out I was pregnant I didn't tell anyone. I thought that I could work an extra month or so. My daughter was born 4 weeks early. I went to work on Friday, and she was born on Saturday. My boss (a man) called me Sunday to say congratulations and don't come back to work after your maternity leave.
It was the best thing that happened to me. I ended up going to work for a small company that gave me a lot of opportunities to learn and advance.
Sharon wrote: "Karen ♐ wrote: "I also remember when working in the 70's, if a woman got pregnant, she had to resign when she was 6 months along. How things have changed."Karen, My first job as an adult was with..."
So glad that worked out well for you, Sharon.
Mod
He could be sued for that today. But, so many of them did this back in the day.
Yes, I was a young woman just starting graduate school in 1968, and newly married, too. In a large university chemistry department, I was a rare student. When I became pregnant, the state required that I had to give up my teaching assistantship when I was about 6 months. So, instead of making a little bit of money, I had to sit home and stare at the bassinet until my husband came home from school.Nolasko gave me an instant bad taste in my mouth. Haven't we all met or heard of a character like this guy? Ugh.
Mod
I’m amazed, even in 1968, that the state required you to leave at 6 months pregnant.
Nolasco brought a lot of memories back for me too, Charlene. Women kept their pregnancies secret until they were showing so they wouldn't have to leave so soon. I remember the woman who trained me for a new position in 1970 was actually 8 months pregnant when she left but of course, had told management she was only 6 months.
Jonetta wrote: "Sharon wrote: "My boss (a man) called me Sunday to say congratulations and don't come back to work after your maternity leave. ..."He could be sued for that today. But, so many of them did this b..."
I know. I had some interesting jobs early in my career. Looking back I'm surprised that I stayed as long as I did at a couple places. I guess I thought it was the way it was.
