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A Song of Ice and Fire
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A Song of Ice and Fire Read-Along
Stannis really is dour and distasteful. His absence is so prominent in AGOT and then you finally meet him and it's like "oh damn, the charismatic rightful king he is not." Any expectations for Stannis to sweep in and claim his throne to the rejoicing of the realm are dashed right away. He can barely get anyone to back him, he's so unliked. An anti-King Arthur of sorts, perhaps? He even has a "special" sword that might not be so special after all...Melisandre is one of the characters I find the MOST puzzling. On my first read I was convinced she was a charlatan. On the second I thought she truly believed her own BS but wasn't very good at interpreting her visions. Who knows where I'll land this time!
Also, poor Shireen.
I still have not started and not sure when that will happen-
Agree 100 percent that Patchface is creepy, but then the whole Dragonstone is full of creepy with Melisandre and the aptly described above, “dour” Stannis. The only who seems normal and honorable is Davos, the former and of course Stannis’ tragic daughter, Shireen. A good question whether Melisandre is a charlatan or for real. My guess would be both. For instance, the flaming sword – when discussing wildfire it is noted, “Water will not quench it, I am told. That is so. Once it takes fire, the substance will burn fiercely until it is no more. More, it will seep into cloth, wood, leather, even steel, so they take fire as well.” The “even steel” part would explain the flaming sword. But on the other hand, there are things about Melisandre that does indeed give her certain dark powers, which we will certainly encounter later.
Love this discussion because I find this first chapter on Dragonstone to be haunting - it's the one first chapter/prologue/whatever in all his books that I absolutely remember in full detail from the first time I read it. It is why I posed the discussion points I did. This seems like such an important even pivotal chapter, not just an introduction of more characters. I now have a little time and will chime in with my personal comments about it. At the end of GOT, you have the illusion of where it is going, of where the battle lines so to speak are drawn. Though both Renly and Stannis are metioned, and we even meet Renly and get a sense of him 'in the flesh' so to speak, Stannis is only known through what others are saying he did or was doing or had agreed to do. He's a fantasy, and given Ned's constant reinforcement to us that he's the rightful heir to the throne, we believe he's capable and responsible - if humorless and stiff-rumped - because Ned, honorable good Ned, is supporting him. Forgetting of course that Ned's judgment isn't exactly on the money -- or at least I 'forgot'.
I was so used to Stannis just being in the background and never actually present that I was absolutely stunned where ACOK started the first time I read it. And that feeling persists each time I read it. It's jarring. I still expect to be in King's Landing or checking in again with Caitlyn, or Tyrion or even Dany.
I do of course believe that is intentional by GRRM. He introduces us to the real Stannis, plus Davos and Melisandre, poor Shireen, and Dragonstone itself, which is steeped in Targaryen lore and rule, in the very first moments of Book 2 -- after Dany's dragons hatch --- and that's an important bit of timing I think. Also after we have heard directly from Tywin how rash Joffrey's killing Ned was and thus pitting the Starks against the Lannisters in a war when he really does need to deal with the Baratheons -- which if united could be a fierce opponent. After all, Stannis no doubt knows the secret of Robert's 'children' being Jaime's and could use that to control the Lannisters, while Renly has the charisma to engage support and armies from many families.
Melisandre was such a shock --- even though there is mention in GOT - by Tywin - that Stannis had brought a shadowbender from Ashai, and there were various other hints and illusions in the Dany chapters and elsewhere. Melisandre is that shadowbender as we find out (view spoiler). It's also deliberate that whether she has real power or not, whether she's independent or working for some bigger purpose laid out by whatever religious order she's part of -- the red priests or whoever -- is not all that clear. I always did believe she had magical powers -- but being able to call forth flame is also something a character we met in GOT has the ability to do - a red priest with a flaming sword who wins the tournament and goes off as directed by Ned with Beric to fight the Mountain and secure the riverlands. Her real gift is prophecy. Yet how good is she at interpreting? Can anyone be truly accurate in interpreting prophecy? If there's one thing my re-read of Harry Potter is giving me is a reminder that prophecies are not always that clear or easy to interpret, that in fact, while prophecies are not necessarily all that clear or direct, but the fact that one person takes action based on his/her/their interpretation of the prophecy makes that prophecy true to that interpretation. Thus in HP, Voldemort taking the steps he did that killed Harry's parents and gave him that scar made his interpretation self-fulling and the prophecy then was about Harry and Voldemort, not Voldemort and Neville or any other born on that day.
Applying that here -- is Melisandre through her own beliefs or those of her 'superiors', or even just the person employing her (like Stannis) really interpreting the prophecies or merely aiding those who have asked her to read the portents? Doing her job. I am not sure anymore if at this point in the story she is a believer as well as a tool.
It's in Melisandre's best interests to feed Stannis what he wants.
So what else do I have to say about this first chapter? The fool - is definitely creepy but then all fools are truly creepy in some way -- like clowns. I wish I remembered what book recently talked about how a fool isn't just an entertainer but there to reveal truth, or some such. Maybe it was Tyrion in GOT? I need to go back and find that (this is where having the books in ebook not just print comes in handy -- that search feature in ebooks). I think this is true here -- he's creepy which reveals just how creepy, unstable, and awful Stannis and his entourage (that wife the religious zealot!) are for the most part and how haunted and grim Dragonstone is.
DAVOS - oh love Davos! He's a much needed injection of the Everyman I think. He's intelligent but not in the way of Tyrion. He's a simple man caught up in huge events, believer in loyalty. Every time Davos shows up as saga unfolds, I smile.
What happens here is so much about how this is not that clear a battle for the Iron Throne as so many of the players in the Game of Thrones seem to believe. There's another element -- that of religion and magic -- that cause men and women to pursue power.
Poor Shireen - representing the innocence that is always most harmed and at risk in the Games of Thrones and the aspirations of others.
Excellent commentary, Theresa!! I agree wholeheartedly. I love the misdirection in GOT and the build up to Stannis – it really struck me this time just how petty he is. He could get so much farther if he was still on good terms with Renly, but he can't see beyond how Robert slighted him in the past. He's obsessed with what he's "owed" just by being the elder brother and it reflects rather poorly on him in the long run.Davos is a wonderfully grounding character in the series. It's so full of schemers, liars, backstabbers and horrifically damaged people. Davos and his humility are a breath of fresh air – one of the few truly noble people we encounter. We sure are short on such after Ned's murder. (I feel similarly about Brienne, although I'm not sure we get to her yet in this first section.)
It is that gift GRRM has for creating well-rounded flawed characters. Davos is shows the nobility of a loyal humble everyman.
I forgot to comment on the comet. I can honestly say that I have paid no attention to the comet in past readings. But it was mentioned a few times in GOT. The Stark maestrr was studying the comet when some events or news came. Comets have long been seen as harbingers of change, chaos, as warnings. Isn't there a comet in War and Peace? I think we need to pay attention to this comet.
GOT had this reference to Fools that is interesting though not the reference I was thinking about. Must be something else Ibread recently.The king’s own fool, the pie-faced simpleton called Moon Boy, danced about on stilts, all in motley, making mock of everyone with such deft cruelty that Sansa wondered if he was simple after all. - Sansa at the Hand's Tourney feast.
Theresa wrote: "Steven's post reminded me of something from end of GOT - not sure posted here.Remember how Dany in her final chapters had various interactions with her dragon eggs, talking about a light or glow ..."
I am going back to this post where I discussed dragons and direwolves as more than sigils, perhaps key to their power through the bond between human and beast, and how the lion for Lannisters was only a sigil. I finally looked up the reference to the founding of Lannisters as Ned reads from the Westeros version of Debretts:
The Lannisters were an old family, tracing their descent back to Lann the Clever, a trickster from the Age of Heroes who was no doubt as legendary as Bran the Builder, though far more beloved of singers and taletellers. In the songs, Lann was the fellow who winkled the Casterlys out of Casterly Rock with no weapon but his wits, and stole gold from the sun to brighten his curly hair. Ned wished he were here now, to winkle the truth out of this damnable book.
For some reason Lann the Clever comes to mind with Court Fools and Jesters. I think it is the description of 'trickster'.
And isn't this history just a delicious bit gifted to us by GRRM?!
Comet references in GOT:...with a deep sigh. The maester was peering through his big Myrish lens tube, measuring shadows and noting the position of the comet that hung low in the morning sky. “Yet given time … Ser Rodrik has the truth. - a later Bran chapter where he has dreamed of going to crypts to see Ned, foreshadowing the news they are about to receive, and is with Maester Lewin.
When a horse lord dies, his horse is slain with him, so he might ride proud into the night lands. The bodies are burned beneath the open sky, and the khal rises on his fiery steed to take his place among the stars. The more fiercely the man burned in life, the brighter his star will shine in the darkness.
Jhogo spied it first. “There,” he said in a hushed voice. Dany looked and saw it, low in the east. The first star was a comet, burning red. Blood red; fire red; the dragon’s tail. She could not have asked for a stronger sign. - Dany chapter at end - Khal Drogo's funeral pyre.
Note that both mentions...and only mentions of comet in GOT ... are affiliated with deaths of leaders.
I am not quite up to the finishing point for April but have so enjoyed rereading ACOK and want to Thank You again for the warm welcome! We have out of town guests this week so I will be popping in and out of the discussion when I can 😊I didn’t reread GOT so am a little fuzzy on the ending of it but I felt ACOK had a pretty dramatic opening with Maester Cressen brooding on the balcony with the decrepit gargoyles surrounding him! Dragonstone is stark and cold. I thought the scene had a sense of foreboding of what was to come or almost like things were on a precipice and you have to continue to read to see what happens.
The comet is viewed by everyone as being a symbol of their own destiny and is viewed differently by everyone! I never did get if there was a true meaning of the comet in the TV show. I agree with you, Theresa, that comets are harbingers of change/chaos and it will be interesting to see how the comet’s meaning may change throughout the series or whether GRRM is using the comet as an overall symbol of the chaos of the GOT series.
Stannis is a whole heck of a lot more sour in the book than they portrayed him in the TV series, I thought! No wonder no one backs him as the rightful King…he is not likeable at all!! I felt that his parents death in the shipwreck really affected him and his whole attitude in his adulthood…he mentions the shipwreck a couple times and I thought he seemed to blame his situation on it at one point.
I felt sorry for Maester Cressen. He basically was a substitute parent for the boys after the shipwreck and to be discarded as he was by his favorite, Stannis, was sad. The scene of the poisoning was very interesting to read and I wonder if Melisandre had a foretelling that Cressen was going to try to poison her? She certainly challenged him when he handed her the cup!
The fool Patchface is creepy and every time he speaks, I try to see hidden meanings in what he says. My question/thought: Is he really a total fool who had a bad accident and now is not right in the head or does he sometimes have visions and what he blurts out have prophetic tendencies (if someone would truly listen and then think about what he says)?
I, too, love Davos as a character! And poor Shirreen...
Oh, and I love Tyrion, also...he has always been one of my favorite characters!
And Varys...his spy network and spying capabilities and the way he seems to know everything in advance...he has always intrigued me!
I always suspected Maester Cressen was less sneaky with poisoning the wine than he believed himself to be. He does catch Davos's attention and they have a stage-whispered exchange about what it is he's trying to do. After his embarrassing entrance to the feast hall, I thought his gambit to poison Melisandre probably seemed obvious to her. How she managed to grant herself immunity to poison in the meantime is what I've always wondered about... is it a perk from R'hllor? Or does she have some special powder helping her out, too?
Another favorite I need to name drop - Yoren!! I love him, he might be my fav black brother when it comes to the characters that don't get POV chapters (though Dolorous Edd gets high up there for me in later books).
Heather Reads Books wrote: "Another favorite I need to name drop - Yoren!! I love him, he might be my fav black brother when it comes to the characters that don't get POV chapters (though Dolorous Edd gets high up there for m..."Yoren just keeps popping up....
Dolorous Ed is my absolute favorite Black Brother!
Theresa wrote: "Dolorous Ed is my absolute favorite Black Brother!"HE'S SO GOOD. Hoping there's even more of him in Winds of Winter...
Stannis hoards grievances as treasure. you would think they were precious gems in the vaults of Dragons tone.
For some reason, I cannot remember who Dolorous Ed is.
Dolorous Ed is one of Jon Snow's close friends at the wall and is incredibly funny.
I will have to pay more attention - -thank you.
Steven wrote: "I will have to pay more attention - -thank you."He is dour which is why he is called Dolorous Ed but he is so funny! He is a great addition to the group around Jon at the Wall.
Steven wrote: "For some reason, I cannot remember who Dolorous Ed is."I don't think he becomes prominent until the later books (I don't recall seeing him mentioned in AGOT) and I don't think they made him a character on the show. Which is too bad, he's fantastic!
Keep an eye out for him. He's generally a minor character during the chapters on the Wall but he's full of amazing one-liners.
Okay, real talk: thoughts on Theon?? On the first read I found him very hard to take, not knowing where his storyline was going. By the third, I just feel kinda sad for him from the get-go. He's obviously very damaged by being taken hostage by the Starks and his true family is a lot less than loving. Sure he's full of hubris and arrogance at the start, but a friend of mine once said this about him and I have remembered it ever since: "Yeah, he makes a lot of bad choices, but then he just pays and pays and pays."
I read the first section of ACOK too quick and had to set the book aside for the last two weeks. I am excited to be picking it up again. I did go back and check up on ole Dolorous Ed so am current with him. Amazing just how much good is in these books.
All - ACOK May Section - about page 252 - Caetlyn II starts As she slept... through Caetlyn VI that ends about page 497.Discussion kick-off on May 25, 2022.
Heather Reads Books wrote: "Okay, real talk: thoughts on Theon?? On the first read I found him very hard to take, not knowing where his storyline was going. By the third, I just feel kinda sad for him from the get-go. He's ..."
I have barely started ACOK so I am going to comment on Theon more as I see him at end of GOT. Plus of course it is all colored by what happens in the saga and in the series.
I certainly paid little attention to Theon in GOT in my previous two readings. He is really portrayed from the beginning as not having much of a moral center, as being weak, and immature. We don't see his POV but he does seem to be higher up the Stark extended family pecking order than Jon is, though that isn't saying much. Jon though has real closeness to his 'half-siblings' while Theon appears closer to the upper servants over whom he has power and can show off and lord it. He is in competition with the Stark children. Always.
But he also has spent most of his life with the Starks. He was sent as ward as a means to assure his family's loyalty to Robert. That had to be 10byears earlier or more. He was what 5? He would barely know his own family or where he stands with them.
Wards...GRRM inserts wards throughout GOT, and even at the very beginning of ACOK the intent for Stannis to ward Robert Arryn. The whole use of wards as a political tool is one aspect - Theon definitely is a political ward which puts him in a position of being tolerated in the household he wards in. Tywin taking Robert Arryn would have been to control Lysa and the Vale. Then there are the placements to strengthen alliances and friendships. Ned and Robert growing up together as wards of Jon Arryn led to a lifelong friendship and loyalty. Jon Arryn and Ned and otgers plotting to send His son to ward with Stannis or with the Starks was about assuring both his safety and to strengthen and educate him away from the smothering by Lysa.
Then there is Peter Baelish...the ward at Riverrun. Isn't Peter in some ways a Theon? Someone before whom all the wealth and privilege of one of the highest Houses is dangled yet ultimately denied him. Littlefinger is just a lot smarter, slyer, cleverer than Theon.
I think in part Theon is there to show yet another result of the ward system.
Kate mentioned the white raven. I'd forgotten that there were special ravens for messages from Oldetown's maesters. Being white ravens, which of course signify purity and rarity thus a sense of importance, remind me of the white smoke that announces the election of a new pope. White is often used for wisdom on a higher level -- I'm thinking of Gandalf the White and his snowy white robes in LOTR. Which reminds me of another bit of musing: the portrayal of the different maesters to the different families. I think GRRM has been very specific there. For example, Aegon, Cressin and Luwin are simple men with heavy but plain metal chains, plainwoven robes - of course that's also suitable to those they serve -- at the Wall, Winterfell, and Dragonstone. I think the maester at the Vale was similar - I keep meaning to look back. But then we have Pycelle ... corrupted by Kings Landing it seems to me ... with his fine robes and chain of precious stones as well as metals. The description is that the maester's chain is of metals signifying the wisdom he's gained. No mention of precious stones, but the description of Pycelle's chain mentions sapphires and other precious and semi-precious stones I recall. It does affect how I consider the maester and the guidance he's imparting.
Also, aren't the maester assigned - dedicated - to a place, not a particular family? Was Cressin just assigned to Baratheons or to Dragonstone thus making him previously the maester to the Targaryens. I think I need to investigate that question.
Has there been mention yet of a maester advising the Lannisters? Must look back at that scene with Tywin in GOT.
Finally finished the first section! This book is really great. It is so deft at complicating all the plots that were set up in AGOT. The sections with Arya trying to escape King's Landing but getting caught amidst the slaughter in the riverlands is especially heartbreaking. GRRM does such a good job showing the real time consequences of war while the nobles play their scheming games safe behind walls.
Oh. My. Dragons! Just watched this trailer for House of Dragons.Starts right after my birthday! I think the only question will be do I add HBO back into my cable plan when it starts, or wait for a few episodes have aired so I can binge watch and save a few bucks.
https://fb.watch/cRITbAs0gF/
Hey folks, I am going to bug out, for right now, on this re-read. I may change my mind later in the month, but for right now I think it is best for my reading for me to set it down. I am just not that into it and forcing myself to read it is only digging me deeper into the slump I have found myself in. I will still follow along, but wanted to make you aware of my decision.
No problem! That is what happens. You have read it before after all.
No worries, Joanne! I totally understand. Making time for reading has been a challenge for me lately... I was curious about what others think about maybe doing a rest month when we finish the next book. Maybe that would give time for some stragglers to catch up? I know it would help me - I had no idea 2022 would bring so much upheaval for my family.
Heather Reads Books wrote: "No worries, Joanne! I totally understand. Making time for reading has been a challenge for me lately... I was curious about what others think about maybe doing a rest month when we finish the nex..."
I was thinking much the same...or just tack a catchup month on ACOK. ASOS is going to be a big undertaking as so much happens and it is so long, we might want to spread over 5 months ... and it feels lime a cold weather read to me.
I am trailing behind too.
BTW read something in last couple of days that The Winds of Winter is likely to be longest volume yet in series.
Yeah, I might need to take that pause this month - I'm so behind on everything!
Heather Reads Books wrote: "Yeah, I might need to take that pause this month - I'm so behind on everything!"I am too. I think we extend schedule of Part 2 of ACOK to end of June. Pick up final part in July. Then we can consider having 1st part of ASOS spread across both August and September, thus achieving a break.
I will change schedule in first message later.
Sounds good to me!! Extending the length of months as the books get longer is a good call, too.
ACOK schedules adjusted! Part 2 reading is May and June, Part 3 reading is July August. Part 2 discussion put off to June 25.
Suits me perfectly. Mine is gathering dust at the moment
Awesome, you're the best, Theresa! Thanks for doing the adjusting!
My pleasure. I too am behind and my work schedule this next month will not help me catch up.I can concentrate on other reading deadlines.
I know everyone is taking a break, but me, I cannot stop reading - they are just too compelling. I will look forward to all the comments and notes once all pick it up again.
I am guiding and converses with a young fella in my fantasy group who is reading for the first time. He asked a question from book 1 that I don't know the answer to...can anyone here help?When Ned went to the armorer to see Gendry, he asked him who paid for Gendry's apprentice fee. The armorer described a man, but I don't know who it was. Was it Varys?
Joanne wrote: "I am guiding and converses with a young fella in my fantasy group who is reading for the first time. He asked a question from book 1 that I don't know the answer to...can anyone here help?When Ne..."
I think it was Varys as he was described as fat, not overly tall, round shouldered and kept face and head hidden with beard and hood. Oh and wearing purple velvet I believe.
Also in the first Arya chapter in ACOK, Yorwn says he was nit supposed to be there but that a man came with a boy and bag of gold and told him to wait for one more prisoner as Lord Stark was to take the Black. The boy was Gendry....and it had to be Varys on that errand. Only one that makes sense. My other thought was Littlefinger but I don't see him as caring to save Gendry for any reason.
High fantasy tag on ACOK and all of ASOIAF. Just sayin'.Gets us all back on track!
Vote high fantasy!
I may have thrown all 10 votes at “high fantasy” …Looking forward to getting back to reading ACOK 😊
Heather Reads Books wrote: "I may have thrown all 10 votes at “high fantasy” …Looking forward to getting back to reading ACOK 😊"
Hmmm....me too!
Just returned to ACOK... it's nice to be back. I just met Brienne of Tarth, one of my all-time favorites!
I am planning a return over 4th of July long weekend. Right now, working through various LGBT fantasy reads.
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I’m just through the intro to Stannis as well and forgot what a horribly dour and damaged character he is. Brim full of resentment and distaste for anything that smacks of the joy he doesn’t have (Renly for instance). No wonder Melisandre latched onto him as someone who could be a lever to promote R’hllor. He’d make a rotten king even without Melisandre’s influence. The contrast between him and Ned Stark is an interesting one, and some of Stannis’ musings on the past set that contrast up quite deliberately I think. Ned wasn’t lighthearted either, but he was staunch rather than dour, had love in him that Stannis doesn’t have, and was humane and principled.
Davos though. How I love Davos.