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A Song of Ice and Fire
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A Song of Ice and Fire Read-Along
I am also behind-most likely will not finish up by the 25th-
I still haven’t even started the third part, though it’s going away on holiday with me this weekend… Sigh. I’ll leave the supplement volumes to you super-keen-beans, I think. I like the series fine especially the early books and I totally geeked out over the TV series, but not *that* much 😂😂
Just finished! So many marvelous tidbits! So many clues to future events or characters where I was totally taken by surprise in past reading the books - and I have never noticed them before!
As events unfolded in this last section, I kept thinking 'the last time all the Starks were together was Winterfell during the King's visit.' That was in the first 100 pages!
KateNZ wrote: "I’ll leave the supplement volumes to you super-keen-beans, I think. I like the series fine especially the early books and I totally geeked out over the TV series, but not *that* much 😂😂"I said that too at first, Kate... then I picked up A World of Ice and Fire out of curiosity and proceeded to pour over it for weeks and was like... oh no, I AM a super fan...!
Seriously though, the books like AWOIAF and Fire & Blood probably do require a certain personality because they read like history texts on purpose. If you're not invested in studying a fictional world like you're taking a college class it probably isn't all that riveting... however I learned that's exactly my jam LOL so I've been meaning to come back to read Fire & Blood after enjoying AWOIAF so much.
I'm sure I've said this before but the art in AWOIAF is super beautiful though. I would say it's worth flipping through just for that. Like this is what the Iron Throne looks like according to AWOIAF!
Sorry, I am with Kate-don't think I will go any further then the series.I picked up Fire & Blood and got 1/2 through the first chapter..that was it for me.
I am traveling tomorrow and Heather has her hands full - how is your dad and family doing, Heather? I thought I would kick off discussion in my own quirky way.Stannis is a major character here in GOT, yet we have not actually nrt him or read his point of view or even heard from him indirectly. All we know is reported by 3rd parties. I am not quite sure why GRRM did that. Possibly to keep in question whether he is a real threat to Lannister plans.
Everyone should note Tywin's summary of the rumors in the Seven Kingdoms about what Stannis is up to...particularly the one about a shadowbender from Asshai. What exactly is a shadowbender is not defined. It is such an odd rumor, especially in contrast to all others, and Asshai is in the east from which strange and magical ideas, beings, and beliefs emerge. Makes me think it is true, not rumor. (view spoiler).
Do any of you really see Stannis as a threat at this point? What do you think of his abandonning KL after Jon Arryn killed, knowing what he did, and why didn't he take Robert Arryn with him as ward as planned?
I have always been conflicted over how much Tywin knew, now or later in the series. Clearly he has sought to rule indirectly, ultimately through someone with Lannister blood on the throne. Does Tywin know the truth about Cersei and Jaime and the children? Is Cersei his tool or to some degree acting for her own advancement?
Sansa is not the only Stark thinking the pretty and heroic stories are reflections of a real world. We have Bran and his fascination with knights. Also Jon and his expectations of the Night Watch. Anyone else?
I am three chapters into the final stretch... I am hoping to be done by the end of March! I have certainly noticed Stannis's presence in GoT moreso this time than the previous reads. It seems like he and Renly were deeply involved with Jon Arryn looking into the paternity of the royal children. Stannis's flight to Dragonstone might be a personality thing – he clearly has no stomach for political games and with Jon Arryn murdered I suspect he just wanted to get out of there and prepare for a contingency plan. There are bits with Renly that suggest he and Stannis were hoping to get Robert remarried to Margaery Tyrell (who Renly claims "looks like Lyanna Stark") – a plot that must have fallen apart once Robert died. It is interesting that Renly and Stannis were once allied together, since later books show anything but. I am not sure if the books that do have Stannis in them ever allude to this – I'll have to keep an eye out for it.
I am not sure why Stannis never took Robert Arryn as a ward – I wondered whether the Lannisters swooped in last minute with a change of plans in an attempt to control Lysa after Jon Arryn's death, but she fled before any of that could happen.
I always thought Tywin was ignorant to Jaime and Cersei's relationship – he seemed far too blinded by his ambition for them, and was much more likely to find fault with Tyrion. But there might be evidence for the contrary... I'll have to look for that as well!
Arya is taken with romantic notions too – naming her direwolf after Nymeria and her 10,000 ships, for instance. Perhaps that is a Stark trait... they are all very taken with honor and living up to legends of old. Bran thinks a lot about his namesake, Brandon the Builder, also, even though it is heavily implied Brandon the Builder was a legendary leader ala King Arthur and likely not an actual historical figure.
Great points, Heather, and yes, there was a plot with Renly at least about marrying Robert off to Margery. I had not though made the connection...or maybe already forgot...that the reason was that Robert would cast off Cersei on discovering the children were not his but from Cersei/Jaime incest. Must reread that Renly/Ned meeting.Lysa...we need to discuss her and her repeating to Cat Jon Arryn's final words as if they meant her son Robert rather than King Robert. Did she deliberately decide to 'misunderstand'? Does she know of or suspect the truth about Cersei's chikdren? Is if her madness in action?
I suspect the reason Stannis did not take RA as ward as Lysa refused.
Some thoughts as I'm reading –I had forgotten Roose Bolton shows up at Moat Cailin when Catelyn visits Robb among his bannermen. He becomes a super important character in later books. (view spoiler) And also Wyman Manderly and his sons!! The Manderlys won't become important until A Dance with Dragons, if I remember correctly.
Also, I can't believe how long it took me to realize Robb's story about "Lord Erik or Derik" running into a trap set by the Lannisters is the fate of Beric Dondarrion and the Stark men Ned sent to deal with Gregor Clegane!
Finished - I really enjoyed the re-read. I love how dramatically and deliberately the principal younger characters all have to remake themselves. By the time the book ends, you’re thoroughly invested in where they will go next!
I greatly appreciate all the insights, Heather and Theresa – it highlights how much depth there is in the series and the density of thought that GRRM put into crafting it. I guess what has struck me most during this second reading is how GRRM was able to seamlessly advance the arc of the narrative while moving between characters, and when he does so, also jumping forward in time. He is somehow able to accomplish this without losing or confusing the reader. Pretty amazing.
@Steven - your comment on GRRM's writing is on point and I believe is one of the main reasons his books appeal to a wide range of readers. I believe that skill was honed when GRRM wrote for television.
I agree - the earlier books are great exemplars of that. I think one of the reasons I got so frustrated with the later books was that they seemed to have lost that sense of momentum and were just bogged down in detail. It’ll be interesting to see whether I feel the same way on the re-read, especially if I’m paying a little more attention to detail. One thing I’ve been noticing a lot this time around is the subtlety of the references to Lyanna (including Rhaegar and the tournament etc), and all the different perspectives around her. It’s really cleverly done
From what I recall, I would agree with you that the later books lose this sharpness and wander.About Lyanna - I cannot escape the TV image of her in my mind, and it is not a good one. I wonder how GRRM envisioned her and thought of the casting.
@Kate - re: sharpness and focus of the later books -I agreed with you on the first read, but on my last read I felt more like I understood the scope of the plot and didn't feel as much like they wandered. I will say I had to come to terms with pretty early that although ASOIAF is full of so many well-drawn characters, it is not a character-driven series. Attention to the macro-political conflicts become paramount (and arguably always were). I remember so many scenes the first go around feeling like they were extraneous or made no sense... but on the second read I realized how much vital information they were conveying about things going on elsewhere.
Theresa said: and why didn't he take Robert Arryn with him as ward as planned?Knowing what we do about rumors and truths floating through the Red Keep, I am sure he was only worried about saving his own skin, one peep, to anyone, what he was planning would have traveled like lightening and he would be laying next to the other cold corpses.
Joanne wrote: "@ Theresa and Heather-have you seen this https://www.goodreads.com/author_blog...?"GRRM has been talking about it on his blog for quite some time... not detail but development status reports and such. I may have to add premium channels back into my cable to watch it.
Joanne wrote: "@ Theresa and Heather-have you seen this https://www.goodreads.com/author_blog...?"I saw a bit about this recently! It looks beautiful. I'm also interested in the prequel HBO series, though I don't think there's been a release date announced for that yet.
Speaking of HBO, has anyone else thought about rewatching Game of Thrones season one after finishing the book? I might give it a go. I have a friend who has not seen the show but has expressed interest and now might be the time to introduce her.
As for my own reading, it is still slow going, but I just finished the chapter where Maester Aemon reveals his true identity to Jon. I got chills. What do you think about that reveal? I find it so haunting and so indicative of the themes of the series. There's so much emphasis on the last of the Targaryens in Daenerys's storyline and here is Aemon the whole time, a forgotten survivor of the fallen dynasty.
Okay, here's another question I have. Mirri Maz Duur. Do you think she planned to poison/kill Khal Drogo from the start? She certainly had the opportunity, and maybe the means, based on the first chapter she appears in where she cleans and dresses Drogo's wounds. (As Dany looks on with naive gratitude.) But she also gives him healing instructions that he clearly intends to flout. So I can never tell if she planned it all along or some of it was due to Drogo's own hubris.
Heather Reads Books wrote: "Joanne wrote: "@ Theresa and Heather-have you seen this https://www.goodreads.com/author_blog......"I absolutely intend on watching the first season again! In April I hope. March has been a full schedule.
I remember that Aemon reveal from my second reread and it really is fascinating and emphasizes just what the Men of the Night's Watch pledge truly, unequivocally means on every single level of that pledge that Pip repeats to Jon the night they ride after him. Aemon is in plain sight yet invisible as he foreswore family, heritage, and engaging in politics or warfare. Pledging instead to his found family, his brothers at the wall.
Has one thinking just why GRRM introduces Aemon Targaryen at all. I think in part it is to show that:
- Viserys was not necessarily next in line for the throne - to have the reader question if he is, just as the succession of the Baratheons to the Iron Throne is in question now,
- Dany's perception that she is the last dragon is really a misperception based on inadequate knowledge,
- providing a hint that there may be more Targaryens around than Viserys and Dany have been led to believe, and also the reader.
Along this same vein at the Wall - what about the Old Bear, Mormont and what he reveals about Jorah, separate from what we kearn from others and from Jorah himself. Suggests the Jorah has a tendancy to poor decisions and actions due to the woman in his life.
Heather Reads Books wrote: "Okay, here's another question I have. Mirri Maz Duur. Do you think she planned to poison/kill Khal Drogo from the start? She certainly had the opportunity, and maybe the means, based on the first c..."I think it was an opportunity she saw and took, and part of her revenge was against Dany herself and what she perceived as her ... can't think of a suitable word...highhandedness? Lack of a true rescue? Disrespect of her religion and position as a priestesse? Definitely any who knew the nature of the dothraki knew Drogo would not follow instructions.
Your question reminds me ... remember how Dany described the shadows she saw dancing with Mirri Maz Duur around the fire in the tent?
She glimpsed the shadow of a great wolf, and another like a man wreathed in flames.
Are these past or future shadows haunting the Targaryens? Or both. Certainly there is argument that they symbolize the Stark family generally, and specifically Brandon Stark who was burned alive by Dany's father when he went to King's Landing to seek return of Lyanna (view spoiler) kidnapped and raped by Rhaegar. That sealed the union of Stark and Tully with Baratheon in Robert's War and led to the Targayens losing the Iron Throne along with the opportunistic power grab by Tywin Lannister.
(view spoiler)
@Kate - The problem with both A Feast for Crows and the first third or more of A Dance with Dragons is that they were meant to be one interwoven book that grew too long and was divided by POV chapters. So you are only reading half the story in AFOC and the other half in the first third or so of ADWD. Of course it is flat...each is incomplete.When we get to AFOC, we will use one of the available guides tacetly blessed by GRRM to read thr chapters those 2 books together, in the order as originally intended, then eventually, AFOC will be done leaving just the merged POVs in second 2/3rds or half of ADWD.
A Storm of Swords is to my mind the pivotal book in the series. So very much happens in those pages! I think we are going to need to spread reading it over 4 months at least.
injured right hand-typing difficult...will return with questions comments later...
Theresa wrote: "Definitely any who knew the nature of the dothraki knew Drogo would not follow instructions."That's an excellent point, Theresa! It is interesting that she could have been more direct about it, but instead put him in a position to bring about his own ruin through his pride... this happens with Dany too, the way she trusts Mirri Maz Duur because Dany thinks she "saved" her and was patting herself on the back about it, but she really only moved Mirri Maz Duur from one position of slavery to another. Really incredible commentary on the pitfalls of power and the delusions of grandeur of those wielding it.
Heather Reads Books wrote: "Theresa wrote: "Definitely any who knew the nature of the dothraki knew Drogo would not follow instructions."That's an excellent point, Theresa! It is interesting that she could have been more di..."
Yes, it is. Also the sense of invincibility against all, including death, that those with power have. Drogo et al. insistance that it was just a minor cut needing no care, he's the khal so no need to get treatment. Mirri was there in Dany's entourage and when given the chance, rolled the dice.
@Joanne - So sorry to hear about your hand. I hope you're feeling better!Another random comment - I love how Mirri Maz Duur references Marwyn the Mage as the maester she met in Asshai. Marwyn gets referenced a few more times across the books, but he doesn't show up for real until the end of A Feast For Crows. That's some top tier foreshadowing!
Thank you Heather and you and your family are in my thoughts daily
Heather Reads Books wrote: "@Joanne - So sorry to hear about your hand. I hope you're feeling better!Another random comment - I love how Mirri Maz Duur references Marwyn the Mage as the maester she met in Asshai. Marwyn get..."
Wow! That you know that is AWESOME!
I did make note of that mention, figuring he is bound to pop up again like the red priests and the shadowbender from Asshai. But did not remember that.
@JoAnne - I hope that hand heals up soon so our Sassy JoA is back!
A few days behind but I finally finished! That ending gets me every time. Looking forward to the next book.
Just a reminder that we should all be starting A Clash of Kings with discussion at end of month. Discussion of GOT can of course continue. See first post in this thread for reading/discussion schedule.I am drowning in work right now and trying to finish several books I have going. My read for May 1 Feminerdy Book Club discussion is nearly 600 pages, so need to factor that too. All this to say, I am likely to be a bit quiet and behind here this month.
But please go forth and read, dissect, and discuss! I will say that where ACOK opens is not at all where we would be and what we would see when I read it the first time. Still startles me. One more example GRRM's abilities.
Last bit of news: in fall, an art book version...with abridged text... of Fire & Blood will be published: The Rise of the Dragon: An Illustrated History of the Targaryen Dynasty, Volume One. No doubt timing is to capitalize on House of the Dragon, the new HBO series landing August 21, 2022 - a belated birthday present for me - ah, so much to look forward to!
I have not picked it up yet, and probably won't for a week or two, which means I will be lagging behind too
I have the opposite problem - I have picked it up and am having a hard time setting it back down.
I had forgotten the meaning behind the naming of the dragons, "The green one shall be Rhaegal, for my valiant brother who died on the green banks of the Trident. The cream-and-gold I call Viserion. Viserys was cruel and weak and frightened, yet he was my brother still. His dragon will do what he could not.” “And the black beast?” asked Ser Jorah Mormont. “The black,” she said, “is Drogon.”
Steven wrote: "I had forgotten the meaning behind the naming of the dragons, "The green one shall be Rhaegal, for my valiant brother who died on the green banks of the Trident. The cream-and-gold I call Viserion...."Yes, I remembered they were her brothers and husband. I think there was some hint about their names at end of GOT too, when they were still eggs.
Steven's post reminded me of something from end of GOT - not sure posted here.Remember how Dany in her final chapters had various interactions with her dragon eggs, talking about a light or glow to them, and heat. There was a moment in one of the final scenes before she put them on Khal Drogo's pyre where she tried to get the others, including Jorah, to confirm they too felt heat in touching the eggs, saw the glow. Every single person said they were cold and no different than when first given to her.
I find it interesting as the means by which GRRM provides us with the mystical and direct link betepween Targaryen and dragons....just like the link between direwolves and Starks.
Of course...I just for the first time made this connection:
Targaryens have a deep real bond with dragons which makes them stronger, gives them power and protection. But dragons have been long gone from Westeros, and the strength and power of the Targaryens waned as a result, being all but eradicated.
Starks have same with direwolves, though they lost less when direwolves disappeared, but still their strength and power waned.
Now we have both direwolves and dragons have reappeared in Westeros, bonded again with their natural human alliance, making those 2 families more powerful, threatening, dangerous. Direwolves and dragons are more than sigils, emblems.
Then we have the Lannisters - the Lion - yet there are no real lions tied to their family lore. Power comes from gold, opportunism, alliances, murder, trickery. The lion is just an emblem, a sigil. Back when Ned was reading the book of lineages, he read about the Lannisters and how the first got Casterly Rock and started the ascent to power and wealth. That Lannister was a Court Jester I think...will go back and look.
I plan to keep this all in mind as I read forward. Certainly it suggests (view spoiler)
Of course I could be reading too much into all this.
Hi, My names is Alison and I am a new member to this group. My husband and I have been meaning to reread the GOT series (skipping the first book because we have read that one about 4 times…but I will go and read your comments above on the first book). I would like to join in this Buddy Read of the GOT series starting with ACOK, if that is OK?!I will read according to your schedule and am looking forward to all the little nuisances GRRM brings to the books that I have missed out on! I loved the HBO series but realize there is so much more in the books!
BTW, I live in Santa Fe, NM and have seen GRRM out and about several times…his presence is felt with the Jean Cocteau theatre, a couple dragon murals in town and his house also has a castle as a mailbox, which is just perfect! 😉
Alison wrote: "Hi, My names is Alison and I am a new member to this group. My husband and I have been meaning to reread the GOT series (skipping the first book because we have read that one about 4 times…but I wi..."Please do join us! The more the merrier! You will fit right in as our motivation is all about embracing the books again over the wonderful HBO series adaptation. Do not hesitate to chime in on any discussions that happened already. I fully expect to go back as we read on.
I visit Santa Fe from time to time as a close friend moved there about 10 years ago. I always do my GRRM homage ... visit the bookstore and Jean Cocteau and awesome Meow Wolf, drive-by the castle mailbox, and I saw he now has a steam train with dragons running between SF and Lamy. He is definitely a positive presence in SF!
Theresa wrote: "Alison wrote: "Hi, My names is Alison and I am a new member to this group. My husband and I have been meaning to reread the GOT series (skipping the first book because we have read that one about 4..."Welcome, Alison! It's great to have you and yes, you can jump in at any time!
I've been living in southern New Mexico for awhile now and keep meaning to do the pilgrimage up to Santa Fe. Unfortunately COVID and an illness in the family have gotten in the way. I've been dying to do Meow Wolf for ages, and the train ride too! One day, one day...
The more the merrier, Allison! Welcome
Thank You All for such a warm welcome!! I ordered a paperback copy today of ACOK which should be here tomorrow. I thought we owned one but only have it on Kindle and I want to be able to scribble things in the margins/underline or highlight/ basically make the book a mess with my thoughts 😉I forgot about Meow Wolf here in Santa Fe (we have avoided it during the pandemic) and yes, the SF to Lamy train is on my bucket list!
Okay, clearly my next visit to Santa Fe is going to include a GRRM weekend with Alison & Heather and any other PBT ASOIAF fans we can rope in! We can do drivebys of his house, eat at his favorite restaurant, buy books at his bookstore, attend a screening at the Jean Cocteau, take the train, and of course go to Meow Wolf. I LOVE Meow Wolf! Been twice. I think it is as close to a real life experience of The Night Circus by Erin Morgenstern as one can get.2024 perhaps?
@Heather - I have travelled around New Mexico quite a bit over 30 years, but all I have seen south of Route 40 is Belen/The Harvey Museum and the Dia Center's Lightening Field near Pie Town (my SF friend is heavy into woowoo stuff and expected to have some transformative psychic experience in the Lightening Field - it was mildly amusing and very underwhelming) and some scenery on drive from ABQ to there and back. I actually decided the last time I visited in 2019 that the next trip I would head south to whatever tourist highlights there are before spending time with friends in ABQ and my friend in SF. I am a really good tourist.😁
Hi Alison - great to meet you and welcome in! I’m in New Zealand and my chances of getting to Santa Fe are probably not high, but I can live vicariously through you lot 😁
Hello everyone! How are you doing with ACOK? I am still running late and am hoping to start in tomorrow.
I haven’t even started it yet, though it’s made it to the bedside table - and when I do start it. I will motor through the chunks quickly. So don’t wait for me!!
I am also running late. My Feminerdy Book Club meets this coming weekend, a week earlier than usual, and the book was almost 600 pages. I thought it might take some time...but I ripped through it over the weekend. It was The City of Brass.I will be picking up ACOK this week - likely finishing on Friday when I am taking the train to Philly to meet friends to see an exhibit at the Barnes.
But I actually have a question to start off a discussion...and for all to consider when they pick up and start:
What was your reaction to the scene that greets us: the where, when, who and what - and how did that change your expectations for the story going forward versus where those expectations were at the end of GOT.
I also have a discussion question! What do you think of the shift in POV chapters? Does that alter who your favorite character has been thus far? And any expectations of where the story is going? (That last one hooks into Theresa's too I think.)
Theresa wrote: "What was your reaction to the scene that greets us: the where, when, who and what - and how did that change your expectations for the story going forward versus where those expectations were at the end of GOT."I just read this prologue chapter, so I'll answer that! It was fascinating to finally see Stannis after all the build up in the previous book. Things are tense on Dragonstone, however, since his chances for taking the crown look slim due to the lack of a strong army to back him.
Love the introduction to Davos, who will play a large part in the series going forward, and mysterious Melisandre. I've always had a soft spot for poor Maester Cressen. He tried his best to give good council but Stannis seems too caught up on old slights by Robert and Renly to listen to sense.
Patchface always confuses and terrifies me, as well. His strange "drowning" and weird prophetic singing? So creepy.
ACOK is where the signs and portents really pick up in the series. I love the opening with the red comet, and throughout the book all the characters have different takes on what it might mean, which is cool.
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Erin Morgenstern (other topics)Diana Gabaldon (other topics)
I am game on the supplemental materials. Especially now that they have their dedicated TBR Tower.